Taunt aura for all scrapper secondaries?

[Deuce Spade]

15 minutes ago, arcane said:

That is not enough. Because what does it do for Ice Armor, Energy Aura, or Graniteless Stone Armor? Basically zero. That’s not a good answer.

So you want a Brute buff that makes defensive armor brutes better than defensive armor scrappers, is that right?  I guess you do have a higher HP total to go with your higher resist caps, which do come into play in teaming.  If you're wanting a brute buff for solo play for defensive sets other than faster regen from higher HP cap, how much less do you really need to be hit?

 

If you did get whatever buff you're imagining in return for scrappers getting taunt aura, how do you imagine it would make brutes more attractive for solo farming, which seems to be your concern?

 

I get that people don't want scrappers to have taunt auras, because "no fair!".   That doesn't change the validity of the resist cap argument making brutes a viable choice vs scrappers, taunt aura or no.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Deuce Spade said:

So you want a Brute buff that makes defensive armor brutes better than defensive armor scrappers, is that right?  I guess you do have a higher HP total to go with your higher resist caps, which do come into play in teaming.  If you're wanting a brute buff for solo play for defensive sets other than faster regen from higher HP cap, how much less do you really need to be hit?

 

If you did get whatever buff you're imagining in return for scrappers getting taunt aura, how do you imagine it would make brutes more attractive for solo farming, which seems to be your concern?

 

I get that people don't want scrappers to have taunt auras, because "no fair!".   That doesn't change the validity of the resist cap argument making brutes a viable choice vs scrappers, taunt aura or no.

No. I would prefer Scrappers just not get taunt auras as the best solution. Just saying if they DO get them, Brutes then have to get something. And no farming is not my concern. Just AT balance.

Edited June 19, 2021 by arcane

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Deuce Spade said:

That doesn't change the validity of the resist cap argument making brutes a viable choice vs scrappers, taunt aura or no.

The argument is literally invalid because it only gives an incentive towards bruting to a handful of sets..

[Deuce Spade]

I think scrappers should get hit with an influence-drain debuff if they enter a mission set to +4/8, and their enhancements should be deleted.  Maybe that would solve this impending scrapper farmer epidemic.  Something must be done! 😛

[Deuce Spade]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

The argument is literally invalid because it only gives an incentive towards bruting to a handful of sets..

In a solo farming scenario.  In a teaming scenario, it's handy.

[arcane]

10 minutes ago, Deuce Spade said:

I think scrappers should get hit with an influence-drain debuff if they enter a mission set to +4/8, and their enhancements should be deleted.  Maybe that would solve this impending scrapper farmer epidemic.  Something must be done! 😛

Straw man. I don’t care about the impact on farms one bit and literally already said so.

Edited June 19, 2021 by arcane

[arcane]

8 minutes ago, Deuce Spade said:

In a solo farming scenario.  In a teaming scenario, it's handy.

Ok but each AT needs to have ways in which they are better than others in all scenarios. Every single other AT has pros/cons across the board.

 

Guess you’d have a little extra HP. Great. Anyway glad your points all basically demonstrate Scrappers having taunt auras would disrupt balance. Thanks for the unacknowledged agreement.

Edited June 19, 2021 by arcane

[Deuce Spade]

8 minutes ago, arcane said:

Straw man. I don’t care about the impact on farms one bit and literally already said so.

In your opening post, you said "I would rather have Scrappers get zero taunt auras. But if all Scrappers were given taunt auras, I can absolutely guarantee you they would become superior to Brutes for active farming (not for AFK farming - Brutes would remain ideal there). I already skip Healing Flames on my Brutes because they’re invincible in fire farms. But if you’re actively farming and either picking up Healing Flames or using a couple Respites now and then? 75% fire resistance is absolutely plenty for surviving a swarm of baddies in a fire farm. We know that for a fact because I already have 3 “squishy” AT builds set up with fire shield and capped fire defense, and they can do the meteor map or whatever at zero risk too. So literally the only reason /Fire Scrappers aren’t already meta for active farming is the lack of a taunt aura. If it DID happen, I’d be making the switch in a heartbeat. But yeah, no need for that to happen."

 

That doesn't read like you don't care about farming to me.

 

That said, I'm not here to win some forum fight, I wanted to make my point,  I'll step back and you can comment to your heart's content.  Consider me vanquished, logic warrior.

[arcane]

15 minutes ago, Deuce Spade said:

In your opening post, you said "I would rather have Scrappers get zero taunt auras. But if all Scrappers were given taunt auras, I can absolutely guarantee you they would become superior to Brutes for active farming (not for AFK farming - Brutes would remain ideal there). I already skip Healing Flames on my Brutes because they’re invincible in fire farms. But if you’re actively farming and either picking up Healing Flames or using a couple Respites now and then? 75% fire resistance is absolutely plenty for surviving a swarm of baddies in a fire farm. We know that for a fact because I already have 3 “squishy” AT builds set up with fire shield and capped fire defense, and they can do the meteor map or whatever at zero risk too. So literally the only reason /Fire Scrappers aren’t already meta for active farming is the lack of a taunt aura. If it DID happen, I’d be making the switch in a heartbeat. But yeah, no need for that to happen."

 

That doesn't read like you don't care about farming to me.

 

That said, I'm not here to win some forum fight, I wanted to make my point,  I'll step back and you can comment to your heart's content.  Consider me vanquished, logic warrior.

I was stating a fact in response to reading someone’s post that expressed skepticism about Scrappers being tough enough to farm. I did not say that farming was my reason for opposing taunt auras. I would happily take advantage of the superior farmer if things turned out that way, but hopefully they don’t for farming-unrelated balance reasons.

 

Anyway it’s a moot point because Scrapper Fiery Aura is never getting a taunt aura. So the only actual reality to consider is whether or not to strip away the already existing Scrapper taunt auras. My vote is yes.

Edited June 19, 2021 by arcane

[Koopak]

8 hours ago, arcane said:

Anyway it’s a moot point because Scrapper Fiery Aura is never getting a taunt aura. So the only actual reality to consider is whether or not to strip away the already existing Scrapper taunt auras. My vote is yes.

God no, the war for AT "consistency" is completely off base. If you get rid of the taunt auras on the sets that have them, most of them will be severely negatively impacted in function, requiring further changes and deviations for those power sets game play styles.

 

 

8 hours ago, arcane said:

Ok but each AT needs to have ways in which they are better than others in all scenarios. Every single other AT has pros/cons across the board.

I also take umbrage with the bolded. This is IMPOSSIBLE. This does not exist now, and never will. No developer of any class based system would agree with this when you get down to the details because the fact of the matter is past 2-3 maybe 4 classes, this becomes impossible because you can either A. design content all classes can do, but has no significant benefit to one class or the other. or B. design classes that are so homogenous as to be interchangable.

Instead this game and most games with a class system strive to create scenarios where each class can shine, but that necessitates those same scenarios are bad for other classes. With the number of classes we have? That means no, there will never be content in which each class has a unique advantage to the others in every scenario.

Maybe im straw manning a poorly worded argument dude, and i hope so because this is not possible.

[Bill Z Bubba]

22 hours ago, Aracknight said:

SR's, for example, could be that the bad guy gets enraged because HE JUST CAN'T HIT YOU.

 

That's how I explain it for my brute and tank SR users.

[BrandX]

This thread makes me want to try an EM/Fire Scrapper

[Bill Z Bubba]

36 minutes ago, BrandX said:

This thread makes me want to try an EM/Fire Scrapper

 

I know @Soverawill say otherwise, but I still find you lose a lot of build choices plugging all the holes in FA. And there are many.

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I know @Soverawill say otherwise, but I still find you lose a lot of build choices plugging all the holes in FA. And there are many.

 

I'm quite happy with my Ice/Fire Brute.  Not sure what it's ST DPS is, but it's my fire farmer and it does okay on all the TFs so far in team play.   But it was meant to be a fun concept fire farmer.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I know @Soverawill say otherwise, but I still find you lose a lot of build choices plugging all the holes in FA. And there are many.

Its more like all hole, with a few shields.

[ChocolateMercenary]

On 6/14/2021 at 12:08 PM, BrandX said:

Where is this AV running away?  Maybe one AV ran away when I soloed them (Swan counterpart I think it was) with my EM/Regen (no taunt aura), but for most of them, they stayed right in melee beating back on me.

Mary MacComber is infamous for running from everything.

[BrandX]

1 minute ago, ChocolateMercenary said:

Mary MacComber is infamous for running from everything.

 

That's another, I believe I've seen her do that with having a taunt aura in the group though.  Also, group, not one, one tends to solo.

Edited June 21, 2021 by BrandX

[Doomguide2005]

*pokes head in*

 

Don't really care.  I've  no need of a Taunt aura and don't really care about runners.  Then again not too many runners out run me and I've 2 ranged attacks excluding epic considerations and both do kb/kd as well, they just die tired while trying to run 😋.

 

 

[Riverdusk]

On 6/19/2021 at 9:39 AM, arcane said:

The argument is literally invalid because it only gives an incentive towards bruting to a handful of sets..

 

And right now the 75% resistance cap gives a strong incentive against building scrappers of certain sets.  Two sides to that sword.   You want AT balance then brutes running resistance heavy sets shouldn't be able to do almost the same damage as a scrapper and yet be more than 2.5 times as survivable (10% damage after resistance cap + extra hps vs 25% damage with lower hps).  Now that is an imbalance. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by Riverdusk

[Murcielago]

I think Scrappers should get Super Strength. 

[Arli]

1 hour ago, Riverdusk said:

 

And right now the 75% resistance cap gives a strong incentive against building scrappers of certain sets.  Two sides to that sword.   You want AT balance then brutes running resistance heavy sets shouldn't be able to do almost the same damage as a scrapper and yet be more than 2.5 times as survivable (10% damage after resistance cap + extra hps vs 25% damage with lower hps).  Now that is an imbalance. 

Brutes have fury, which can provide up to a 170% damage bonus. Scrappers can crit - and hit up to 2x base damage - this is in addition to the base damage increase they have over brutes (scrappers have roughly a 1.5x base damage advantage over brutes). In exchange, brutes have greater survivability - they were the "tankers" of redside prior to gaining the ability to switch sides, so it makes sense that they have the resistance caps that they do. While that also mirrors the resistance caps of a tanker, the base numbers for mitigation stats are inherently higher for tankers over brutes - which means brutes are often struggling to fill resistance gaps over tankers, and still have a reduced aggro cap.

 

As it is, there's already a strong resistance against further nerfing brutes; and many players have stated vehemently that brutes are currently underpowered as is, when compared to tankers (if you're looking to fulfil a tanking role in the game, it's almost always a better idea to go with a tanker over a brute, because of mitigation AND because tankers have a higher aggro cap).

 

Most people who chose to create a scrapper create them for the damage output with at least some survivability. Taunt auras are built into some sets, but each secondary has benefits and drawbacks (I myself avoid armor sets that use activated mez protection over toggle, for example). It should stay as is, in my opinion. Taunt auras do not need to be proliferated, but do not also need to be taken away from the sets that already have them.

[Riverdusk]

40 minutes ago, Arli said:

Brutes have fury, which can provide up to a 170% damage bonus. Scrappers can crit - and hit up to 2x base damage - this is in addition to the base damage increase they have over brutes (scrappers have roughly a 1.5x base damage advantage over brutes). In exchange, brutes have greater survivability - they were the "tankers" of redside prior to gaining the ability to switch sides, so it makes sense that they have the resistance caps that they do. While that also mirrors the resistance caps of a tanker, the base numbers for mitigation stats are inherently higher for tankers over brutes - which means brutes are often struggling to fill resistance gaps over tankers, and still have a reduced aggro cap.

 

As it is, there's already a strong resistance against further nerfing brutes; and many players have stated vehemently that brutes are currently underpowered as is, when compared to tankers (if you're looking to fulfil a tanking role in the game, it's almost always a better idea to go with a tanker over a brute, because of mitigation AND because tankers have a higher aggro cap).

 

Most people who chose to create a scrapper create them for the damage output with at least some survivability. Taunt auras are built into some sets, but each secondary has benefits and drawbacks (I myself avoid armor sets that use activated mez protection over toggle, for example). It should stay as is, in my opinion. Taunt auras do not need to be proliferated, but do not also need to be taken away from the sets that already have them.

 

Brutes only need to get to around 50 fury or 100% damage bonus to get around the same damage of a scrapper (assuming an attack is slotted for the usual 95% damage enhancement).  That lines up with the 1.5x base damage scrappers have.  Yes, that doesn't include crits, but it is actually pretty easy in my experience for brutes to get to 80 fury which is 160% damage bonus.  That puts them ahead, not including crits.  I trust most of the numbers people have run that say scrappers are still ahead once you account for crits AND account for the scrapper ATO's that add to the crit chances.  

 

But scrappers are no where near 250% better in damage.  I'm betting they aren't even 50% better.   I've heard some numbers tossed around that it is more like 10-20%?  There is some accounting to be made that damage is more important generally than survivability unless you are really pushing boundaries.  But a brute doing 10-20% less damage but getting 250%+of the survivability still seems imbalanced to me for certain sets.  

 

But all that aside, I generally don't disagree with you, I think things are generally fine the way they are.  Scrapper sets that really need taunt auras have them, those that don't typically don't.  I don't really think brutes need nerfing and never said as much.

 

I have long advocated for scrappers resistance cap being raised to 80% though.

 

Edit: Oh, and as I said before, making "confront" more useful for those that do want to go that route.  I believe right now it is one of the least picked powers in the game on a % basis.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Riverdusk

[Sovera]

17 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I know @Soverawill say otherwise, but I still find you lose a lot of build choices plugging all the holes in FA. And there are many.

 

Resists are capped, defense is softcapped, all attacks are softcapped to hit +3 and close to or in the yellow ED range for damage, Hasten is at 15 ish seconds from being perma. I'm not sure what else I could chase other than further shaving those 15 seconds down or adding more defense for cascading failure. I've even made a version with Fold Space but had to drop Fly so I didn't use it.

 

Perhaps in a world where we did not have the holy trinity of HastenFightingLeadership, but since we are somewhat stuck with those choices the only free choice is what travel power to pick.

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

Resists are capped, defense is softcapped, all attacks are softcapped to hit +3 and close to or in the yellow ED range for damage, Hasten is at 15 ish seconds from being perma. I'm not sure what else I could chase other than further shaving those 15 seconds down or adding more defense for cascading failure. I've even made a version with Fold Space but had to drop Fly so I didn't use it.

 

Perhaps in a world where we did not have the holy trinity of HastenFightingLeadership, but since we are somewhat stuck with those choices the only free choice is what travel power to pick.

 

You got all that and closed the kb and slow holes? This build in your thread? Edit: Why yes, I do keep forgetting about storm kick and its +10% defense.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

But scrappers are no where near 250% better in damage.  I'm betting they aren't even 50% better.

 

Using identical builds for claws/sr, the scrapper takes down a pylon in 3 mins, the brute 4. That works out to around 341 DPS for the scrap and 288 for the brute. Scrap is doing 18% more damage. So that's certainly in line with your 10-20 figure.

Not sure where you're getting the 250% more survivable, though, when the brute gets identical base values and only 12% more HP.