So, procs...

[Bionic_Flea]

Damage is king.  But, I think anyone that is using damage procs is probably also using LoTG, Panacea, Preventive Medicine, Miracle, Performance Shifter, Numina, Shield Wall, Gladiators Armor, Steadfast Protection, and Reactive Defenses.  Oh, and the travel stealths and -KBS too.  But I don't hear anyone arguing for those to be nerfed.

 

Gaussian and Force Feedback are also used a lot, and some have called for these to be nerfed.

 

The next group of Procs that get a lot of use are the KB-KD or just KD, Overwhelming Force, Sudden Acceleration, and Avalanche.  I'd add Lockdown, Devastation, and Gravitational Anchors  +hold to this group as a popular control.  I have only heard complaints about KB-KD in certain powers . . .

 

All the stun procs are either low chance, low mag, or both and are considered horrible by most -- Energy Manipulator, Debilitative Action, Pounding Slugfest, and Executioner's Contract might be used more if they were buffed.

 

Finally, there's the ATOs -- some are just another damage proc but there are a few game changing ones (scrapper and stalker), many OK ones, and a few blah but I'll take it.

 

Here's an old proc list:  https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Set_Enhancements_with_Special_Effects

And Macskull's very helpful and comprehensive spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vd4ZZd1jfhOzdZZkGxC9O0NN5G0T1EdWPu_XRrV6s0U/edit#gid=905771942

[aethereal]

6 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Damage is king.  But, I think anyone that is using damage procs is probably also using LoTG, Panacea, Preventive Medicine, Miracle, Performance Shifter, Numina, Shield Wall, Gladiators Armor, Steadfast Protection, and Reactive Defenses.  Oh, and the travel stealths and -KBS too.  But I don't hear anyone arguing for those to be nerfed.

 

Gaussian and Force Feedback are also used a lot, and some have called for these to be nerfed.

 

The next group of Procs that get a lot of use are the KB-KD or just KD, Overwhelming Force, Sudden Acceleration, and Avalanche.  I'd add Lockdown, Devastation, and Gravitational Anchors  +hold to this group as a popular control.  I have only heard complaints about KB-KD in certain powers . . .

 

All the stun procs are either low chance, low mag, or both and are considered horrible by most -- Energy Manipulator, Debilitative Action, Pounding Slugfest, and Executioner's Contract might be used more if they were buffed.

 

Finally, there's the ATOs -- some are just another damage proc but there are a few game changing ones (scrapper and stalker), many OK ones, and a few blah but I'll take it.

 

Here's an old proc list:  https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Set_Enhancements_with_Special_Effects

And Macskull's very helpful and comprehensive spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vd4ZZd1jfhOzdZZkGxC9O0NN5G0T1EdWPu_XRrV6s0U/edit#gid=905771942

 

I think in this discussion it's important to differentiate between true procs (having a chance to fire an effect on power activation) and other forms of special enhancement, like the the ones that apply a continuous effect such as LotG, Shield Wall, Gladiator's Armor, Steadfast Protection, Reactive Defenses, Miracle, KB-KD, etc.  And the really weird ones like Preventive Medicine and the Stalker chance-to-recharge-build-up one.

Edited July 19, 2021 by aethereal
typo

[tidge]

On 7/2/2021 at 9:25 PM, macskull said:

My vote: leave the proc system alone.

 

I stand with @macskull

 

Like it or not: CoX is about dealing (enough) damage (before too much damage is dealt to you).

 

Folks have fun using %procs to DO MOAR (even if it means they do less in ways they cannot see). There are two sides of the damage/be damaged equation; %damage (et al.) procs are only one dimension to one side of that equation.

[oedipus_tex]

4 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

So  now the Controller is losing damage to Earth Control, unless they've slotted those for procs, but then how are those hitting and wait a second.  APP end mods are nice, but they're not covering not having end mod enhancements, and chaining insps to keep your blue bar filled is some advanced high end macro button stuff that most players won't bother with.

 

If you're gonna go through all that silliness just to keep up in DPS, why not, y'know, just roll a blaster?

 

 

Have a look at that screenshot again.

 

 

 

Acid Arrow slotted with Damage procs costs 9.75 endurance. Fireball slotted with Ragnarok costs 14 endurance. This is fairly standard slotting for Fireball and other AoE blasts on Dominators. On Acid, I have two slots left over to decide what to do with Accuracy etc.

 

I can make Fireball more competitive by remembering the proc game and adding damage procs to it. This example used Dominators specifically; it's always hard to grab procs on Dominators because you're chasing so many things at once, but Posi's Blast has both a damage proc and a Recharge bonus, so it's realistic. A different archetype could more easily justy proccing out. Still going to cost you 12.85 endurance though. 

 

 

It's also true, of course, that by using those 4 slots on Acid Arrow vs the 5 Ragnarok's in Fireball I'm not getting +10 Recharge, which is the real draw of Ragnarok.

 

I'm not mad about it. Trick Arrow's been through a long journey so if it's great now I'm cool with it. I just want to keep us all on the same page about what procs can do for builds. They probably aren't going to turn a build into a lawnmower instantly, but the info going around that they don't have significant impact is not correct.

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[oedipus_tex]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Damage is king.  But, I think anyone that is using damage procs is probably also using LoTG, Panacea, Preventive Medicine, Miracle, Performance Shifter, Numina, Shield Wall, Gladiators Armor, Steadfast Protection, and Reactive Defenses.  Oh, and the travel stealths and -KBS too.  But I don't hear anyone arguing for those to be nerfed.

 

Gaussian and Force Feedback are also used a lot, and some have called for these to be nerfed.

 

 

This is a good point.

 

In this list IMO Steadfast and Gladiator's Armor are definite overperformers. If we were starting fresh with CoX 2 or a "challenge server" both of those I would recommend reducing to  either +1% Defense to all (still really good) or have them provide Defense to only a couple of vectors. Even just getting +3 Ranged or Melee defense alone for a single slot is good slotting, the fact that these procs provide +3 Defense to 12 Vectors has a really significant impact on the game. When you combine that with Destiny Barrier providing a steady state +5 to all, the defense needed to softcap to a position is reduced from 45 to 34, doable for even many squishy archetypes to Slash, Lethal, Ranged and Melee at the same time.

 

I wouldn't dare touch it on a live server because of the chaos of everyone having to rebuild. It's really incredible how almost everyone's build hinges on the availability of those two specific procs though.

 

If there's a lesson to be learned here, it's that it's important that we don't get any new IOs or abilities that provide Defense to all 12 vectors at once. If you think of Defense like painting a room, each extra vector lets you stretch your resources further. At a tipping point, it becomes possible for archetypes you didn't intend to to paint the room entirely. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

LoTG, Panacea, Preventive Medicine, Miracle, Performance Shifter, Numina, Shield Wall, Gladiators Armor, Steadfast Protection, and Reactive Defenses.  Oh, and the travel stealths and -KBS too.  But I don't hear anyone arguing for those to be nerfed.

All of these are fine.

You may go about your business.

Move along.

[Bastille Boy]

I have a meta-suggestion: I think it would be good for the devs to make their intentions concerning the proc system clear. There have been rumors about changes to proc mechanics for over a year. Is a major overhaul in the works? Or is the community reading too much into a few stray comments one of the devs has made?

 

I built two "proc monster" characters in 2020. I've avoided investing in more "proc monster" characters since last summer for fear that the nerf bat would soon be swung. I've thus avoided powersets that require procs to solo tolerably, by my standards (e.g. Electric Control). I play all my characters both solo and on teams.

 

I doubt I'm the only player who's anxious about these rumors and making speculative decisions based on them. I'd be grateful if the devs would either confirm these rumors or put them to bed.

[macskull]

6 hours ago, Bastille Boy said:

I have a meta-suggestion: I think it would be good for the devs to make their intentions concerning the proc system clear.

Based on all available evidence the end goal would appear to be "offensive procs are less powerful than they are now." It's the how we get there which is significantly more up in the air and based on how testing has gone over the last two years I would not be surprised to see multiple completely different iterations of proc changes before they even make it to HC beta. The powers dev has thrown around many different ideas for how to change procs, so if there's anything set it's probably set in slightly damp sand rather than stone.

[Naraka]

14 hours ago, Bastille Boy said:

I have a meta-suggestion: I think it would be good for the devs to make their intentions concerning the proc system clear. There have been rumors about changes to proc mechanics for over a year. Is a major overhaul in the works? Or is the community reading too much into a few stray comments one of the devs has made?

 

I built two "proc monster" characters in 2020. I've avoided investing in more "proc monster" characters since last summer for fear that the nerf bat would soon be swung. I've thus avoided powersets that require procs to solo tolerably, by my standards (e.g. Electric Control). I play all my characters both solo and on teams.

 

I doubt I'm the only player who's anxious about these rumors and making speculative decisions based on them. I'd be grateful if the devs would either confirm these rumors or put them to bed.

I'm the opposite. I played my TW scrapper up to max before they changed it specifically because I wanted to experience it before it got changed. Same with Energy melee before it got buffed.

[Bill Z Bubba]

48 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Same with Energy melee before it got buffed.

 

I still miss pre-nerf EM. My hatred of the long ET animation verges on the infinite.

[srmalloy]

On 7/18/2021 at 3:29 PM, Naraka said:

Well since you specifically mentioned me, I'll ask you: what did Defenders and Controllers do before IOs or PPMs?  Did they never do damage? 

I remember my Fire/Rad Controller back on Live, long before Containment, who was basically stuck having to team starting around level 12, where her damage output started being insufficient to take down mobs at a speed faster than 'glacially slow'. Sure, you were pretty safe with the spawn you were attacking locked down three ways from Sunday, but you were also watching single-digit damage numbers.

[arcane]

On 7/18/2021 at 5:29 PM, Naraka said:

 

Well since you specifically mentioned me, I'll ask you: what did Defenders and Controllers do before IOs or PPMs?  Did they never do damage?  Were Fire/kinetic controllers just flashy and that's why they were popular?  Or how about just the era before PPM when procs had a base % chance, how did builds and procs fit together then?

Depends on exactly when. For instance the aforementioned Fire/Rad controller certainly wasn’t suffering when it could have 9+ imps out.

[tidge]

2 hours ago, srmalloy said:

I remember my Fire/Rad Controller back on Live, long before Containment, who was basically stuck having to team starting around level 12, where her damage output started being insufficient to take down mobs at a speed faster than 'glacially slow'. Sure, you were pretty safe with the spawn you were attacking locked down three ways from Sunday, but you were also watching single-digit damage numbers.

 

This is how I felt with my (non-Fire) Tanker in the early (and later!) days of Live. I'm not ignorant of all the changes since Beta, and generally I feel like the opening up of damage (including via %damage procs) to more ATs has made the game more fun for more players.

 

I appreciate the posts in this thread from other players who've described their experiences (e.g. @Sovera) when trying to leverage %damage versus slotting "full sets".

 

My typical experience has been that my "defeat all" times (against spawns, not pylons) don't really improve with %procs except in a small number of corner cases. I suppose if someone wants to make the case that level 44 Controllers should take hours to clear a x8 map, such a person should be aware that I won't support that argument.

[srmalloy]

5 hours ago, arcane said:

Depends on exactly when. For instance the aforementioned Fire/Rad controller certainly wasn’t suffering when it could have 9+ imps out.

... and made the entire team wait after going up an elevator for their summon to recharge, because all their pets died when they entered the elevator. Oh, yes, we had it good. You six-slot Hasten to make it perma, then you only needed to put three recharge SOs in Fire Imps to be able to get a third summons off quick enough to have three sets of imps out for the ten or fifteen seconds before the first set died.

[Bionic_Flea]

Ah  . . . the good ol' days, eh?

 

[Naraka]

4 hours ago, srmalloy said:

... and made the entire team wait after going up an elevator for their summon to recharge, because all their pets died when they entered the elevator. Oh, yes, we had it good. You six-slot Hasten to make it perma, then you only needed to put three recharge SOs in Fire Imps to be able to get a third summons off quick enough to have three sets of imps out for the ten or fifteen seconds before the first set died.

 

Caves have elevators?

[KaizenSoze]

On 7/19/2021 at 12:23 PM, oedipus_tex said:

It's also true, of course, that by using those 4 slots on Acid Arrow vs the 5 Ragnarok's in Fireball I'm not getting +10 Recharge, which is the real draw of Ragnarok.

 

I'm not mad about it. Trick Arrow's been through a long journey so if it's great now I'm cool with it. I just want to keep us all on the same page about what procs can do for builds. They probably aren't going to turn a build into a lawnmower instantly, but the info going around that they don't have significant impact is not correct.

 

As the proud owner of a Trick Arrow/Dual Pistols proc monster defender where almost every power is proc to the max.

 

It's nice to be able to solo effectively at high difficulties. I do not want to my nerfed back to slow low diff soloing.

 

I honestly do not understand the complains about procs.

 

Procs have been the source of so many creative builds. It allows more freedom for people to solo.

 

There are bigger problems with the game, like lack of importance of controls in the end game on teams.

[...]

3 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

There are bigger problems with the game, like lack of importance of controls in the end game on teams.

 

Agree on this point. 

 

But they aren't totally separate issues; easy access to high damage abilities devalues control. Why control when you can just make them dead? 

 

I'd argue incarnate powers in non-incarnate content (plus basically free incarnate unlocks) are a much bigger problem in this regard though. 

 

Nerf incarnates! At least in non-incarnate content!

[skoryy]

1 hour ago, Vooded said:

Why control when you can just make them dead? 

 

Running a pair of ITFs yesterday, and a half a Manti a couple days before, has enlightened me to the potential of throwing holds and disorients on certain bosses before they turn Unstoppable and you're stuck tickling them for minutes on end.  It's there that the chance for +2 hold proc is nice and maybe more mag 4+ stun and hold procs would be useful.

[...]

4 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

Running a pair of ITFs yesterday, and a half a Manti a couple days before, has enlightened me to the potential of throwing holds and disorients on certain bosses before they turn Unstoppable and you're stuck tickling them for minutes on end.  It's there that the chance for +2 hold proc is nice and maybe more mag 4+ stun and hold procs would be useful.

 

Yes, that's 100% fair.

[srmalloy]

6 hours ago, skoryy said:

It's there that the chance for +2 hold proc is nice and maybe more mag 4+ stun and hold procs would be useful.

And a +mag proc for immobilizes would be nice to have, too.

[oedipus_tex]

IMO Control itself isn't bad, it's Control classes (at least some of iterations of them) that struggle.

 

I just a built a Plant/Trick Arrow that is A-Tier, almost S-Tier, so I don't disrespect what Control can bring.

 

However, directly related to the discussion about procs, it's hard to make myself play a midling average damage Dominator when I could throw a Hold proc on a Blaster and still get hold bosses.

 

It's that exact reason above that I do not want to see a +Mag Stun proc. The Hold and Confuse ones step hard into Dominator turf already. Of course maybe Dominators just need a buff. 

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

IMO Control itself isn't bad, it's Control classes (at least some of iterations of them) that struggle.

 

I just a built a Plant/Trick Arrow that is A-Tier, almost S-Tier, so I don't disrespect what Control can bring.

 

However, directly related to the discussion about procs, it's hard to make myself play a midling average damage Dominator when I could throw a Hold proc on a Blaster and still get hold bosses.

 

It's that exact reason above that I do not want to see a +Mag Stun proc. The Hold and Confuse ones step hard into Dominator turf already. Of course maybe Dominators just need a buff. 

I don’t totally understand the complaints about control so may be misstating them. 
 

I assume one of the gripes about the endgame is about AV’s/GM’s experiencing damage and debuffs (albeit resisting them) but being mostly immune to controls. I don’t know exactly how you solve that problem.

 

I totally agree that control is awesome outside of a few scenarios where it is severely limited. Plant control is kind of insane.

Edited July 22, 2021 by arcane

[oedipus_tex]

Just now, arcane said:

I don’t totally understand the complaints about control so may be misstating them. 
 

I assume one of the gripes about the endgame is about AV’s/GM’s experiencing damage and debuffs (albeit resisting them) but being mostly immune to controls. I don’t know exactly how you solve that problem.

 

 

The problem in a nutshell is that PPM allows non-Control characters to grab enough extra control without the high cost of rolling an actual Control character in the form of the low damage of a Controller or midling low utility of a Dominator. Like all archetypes there are exceptions--Plant Control is an extreme outlier both by bringing high damage and extremely good control. 

 

It's true that control mostly fails against AVs and GMs, but that's not a big cost for characters grabbing control from the PPM buffet. 

 

It may also just be the case that Controls sets in general need a balance pass to determine what they are supposed to be capable of and how large their damage tradeoff should be.

[oedipus_tex]

To get us out of the realm of the theoretical for a second, here's an example of a build that I consider have benefitted a lot from the PPM system. In this case I don't think it's such a huge overperformer that it needs the army brought in, but it's still helpful to ground the discussion. I rolled this first as Fire Control/Trick Arrow, got tired of Hot Feet crashing my blue bar, so rerolled as Plant Control/Trick Arrow.

 

Part of the equation that's always in my head with a Control character is "Can I avoid the low utility of a Dominator by rolling this as a Controller and still finding a way to get good damage?" In this case, the answer was "Mostly, yes." I'm not going to argue that some theoretical Dominator I could build would out damage it, but that Dominator wouldn't get Flash Arrow, -Damage, and so on.

 

 

 

Now I know someone is going to nitpick the Accuracy or End Cost or what have you of some specific power. I've played lots of Dominators and Controllers and I can say that it works and there's interplay between the powers, particularly the combo of +ToHit procs and autohit -Defense (Oil Slick Arrow). Practically every power here is benefitting from PPM in some way, most egregiously Seeds of Confusion (its rolling to apply extra Confusion to enemies in the cone), Acid Arrow, and Ice Arrow. I actually benefitted from the debate previously about Seismic Smash and opted for the 5-purple 1-extra slot arrangement, which still netted two procs. I wish my Ranged defense was higher. 

 

Is this build going to rival a Blaster? No. Is it extremely competitive with Dominator level damage while still bringing the utility of a Controller? Yes, and that's where I think folks are missing what people are saying about procs. 

 

I happen to really enjoy this character and love the new Trick Arrow. If no change ever happens, that's fine, because most things don't change. I do think its important for everyone to be on the same page on these topics though. 

 

 

BTW if anyone could powergame the best slot for me to put the Controller ATO Chance for Psi Damage that would be great. I put it in Ice Arrow for now, it could go anywhere.

 

EDIT: Just noticed Kismet is missing from this build for some reason. Must have removed it during a pass. Would add it back and drop a little Defense to bring overall ToHit stability up.

 

Spoiler

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Gambling Man: Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Plant Control
Secondary Power Set: Trick Arrow
Power Pool: Sorcery
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Stone Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Strangler -- Apc-Dam%(A), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(3), GldNet-Dam%(3), GldJvl-Dam%(5), NrnSht-Dam%(5)
Level 1: Entangling Arrow -- TraoftheH-Dam%(A)
Level 2: Flash Arrow -- DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb(A), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/Rchg(7), DarWtcDsp-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(7), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(9), SphIns-%ToHit(31)
Level 4: Roots -- PstBls-Dam%(A), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(11), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), PstBls-Dmg/Rng(13), PstBls-Dmg/Rchg(15), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(15)
Level 6: Spirit Ward -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A)
Level 8: Seeds of Confusion -- CrcPrs-Conf%(A), CrcPrs-Conf/EndRdx(17), CrcPrs-Acc/Rchg(17), CrcPrs-Acc/Conf/Rchg(19), CrcPrs-Conf/Rchg(19), CrcPrs-Conf(21)
Level 10: Ice Arrow -- UnbCns-Dam%(A), GldNet-Dam%(21), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(23), NrnSht-Dam%(23), ImpSwf-Dam%(25), SprWiloft-Rchg/Dmg%(25)
Level 12: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 16: Poison Gas Arrow -- SprOvrPrs-Rchg/Energy Font(A)
Level 18: Mystic Flight -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A), BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(46)
Level 20: Acid Arrow -- TchofLadG-%Dam(A), AnlWkn-%ToHit(27), ShlBrk-%Dam(29), PstBls-Dam%(29), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(31), AchHee-ResDeb%(31)
Level 22: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 24: Rune of Protection -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 26: Carrion Creepers -- ExpStr-Dam%(A), PstBls-Dam%(33), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(33), ImpSwf-Dam%(33), TraoftheH-Dam%(34)
Level 28: Disruption Arrow -- Range-I(A)
Level 30: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(34)
Level 32: Fly Trap -- ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(A), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(34), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), ExpRnf-Dmg/EndRdx(36), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(36), ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(37)
Level 35: Oil Slick Arrow -- Artl-End/Rech/Rng(A), Artl-Acc/Rech/Rng(37), Artl-Acc/Dam/Rech(37), Artl-Dam/Rech(39), Artl-Dam/End(39), Artl-Acc/Dam(39)
Level 38: Fissure -- Rgn-Knock%(A), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(40), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(40), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(42), FrcFdb-Rechg%(42)
Level 41: EMP Arrow -- SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(A), SprWiloft-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg(42), SprWiloft-EndRdx/Rchg(43), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(43), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 44: Seismic Smash -- Hct-Dam%(A), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Hct-Acc/Rchg(45), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(46), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(46)
Level 47: Vines -- UnbCns-EndRdx/Hold(A), UnbCns-Hold(48), UnbCns-Hold/Rchg(48), UnbCns-Acc/Hold/Rchg(48), UnbCns-Acc/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Rock Armor -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(50), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 1: Containment 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(9), EndMod-I(11)
Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon 
------------

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		|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by oedipus_tex