Determining if the Game is Too Easy

[Monos King]

21 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Because seriously, how freaking hard dies it need to be?  Challenge yourself!  I see people doing crazy stuff like +4 ITF with death being auto quit.  I am doing (and have done) solo entire redside projects.  I farm (which is hard for me, too much like work).  Is the game too hard?   I am lost.  What the hell does that even mean?

Slightly unrelated, but I was playing on the hyper OP server formerly called Cake, and was absolutely delighted at what I could do. Cake is characterized by

 

SUMMONING AN ARMY OF ENHANCEABLE ELITE BOSSES and 

literal tyrant powers and of course

And I was enjoying challenging myself by soloing Magisterium, and Hami, and other ridiculous things. No matter how exceedingly OP you get, you can probably create a challenge for yourself in this game. So yeah, simply being strong isn't an issue if what you're looking for is a way to challenge your build. If what you want though, is to join any team and be able to effectively do your thing there, it's likely you'll find some obstacles in the form of people being way too strong to need you. Even though cakes insanity is fun and you can create a challenge for yourself, as you might expect...team playing is completely dead. Greater individual strength negatively affects individual efficacy in groups, and because you can rack up that individual strength quickly, you get people that aren't entirely happy. 

 

I think at the end of the day it does come to a matter of values. Some players just enjoy playing. Indiscriminately, unconditionally, will-never-PvPingly. And they find fun in whatever they erect for themselves. Others are a bit more particular. As long as one side doesn't intrude on the other, I think it should be fine for us to just look at options like this.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Monos King

[Ghost]

Out of curiosity, which ATs do you feel have a sense of uselessness when on a team ?

 

 

[Ghost]

52 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I do respect Monos King for moderating a lively thread.  Good job

 

i have moved on as he stated, correctly

 

although now the whole thread has me scratching my head.   Because seriously, how freaking hard dies it need to be?  Challenge yourself!  I see people doing crazy stuff like +4 ITF with death being auto quit.  I am doing (and have done) solo entire redside projects.  I farm (which is hard for me, too much like work).  Is the game too hard?   I am lost.  What the hell does that even mean?

I’ve participated in two of the “Die and Quit” ITFs - including the first one.

No one felt useless, and no one felt overpowered.  No one ran off and did there own thing, and no one hung back and simply collected XP/INF.

 

I alluded to it way back on page one, so I’ll just ask it - why change anything in the game, when there are ways to make it more difficult/challenging ?

 

Inspirations can be turned off.

Incarnates can be disabled.

You can even put together your own blasterless/tankless/brute less/whatever you feel is overpowered AT - so why ask devs to take the time to make changes ?  Why not simply get creative ?

 

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Ghost

[Monos King]

32 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Out of curiosity, which ATs do you feel have a sense of uselessness when on a team ?

 

 

That's a great question. I would say most MMs don't have a strong role on teams, but when there is an AV encounter they can really contribute to damage, assuming their pets don't die the first, second, and etc seconds in. Outside of that, they struggle to keep up with the quick pace of teams annihilating what is in sight. We all know there are a hefty amount of MM issues though, and the devs are working on them already. 

 

I don't play controllers. Some of the people I know used to. But they stopped, because they didn't feel there was much a point. From what I gather, many controllers have some pretty nice contribution to teams at the much lower levels, but once their team mates start really coming around their role is muted. The tanks were invincible at around 30 and collected maximum aggro, and the stragglers were obliterated along with the main enemies in seconds by blasters rinsing their nukes. Scrappers were kind of a mix of both. There didn't seem to be much room for "controlling". Speaking of which, everyone I know that plays Widows dropped them and decided they were just an ineffective amalgam of uneeded CCs and weaker scrappers. I actually disagree with that one, but putting it out there. There seems to be a brief period of like 39-44 where there is generally agreed efficacy in teams again (depending on the enemy groups that are being fought) but then that tends to disappear entirely in the next level when incarnates are a factor, and the greatest contribution is another wave of judgement. At level 50 and beyond, defenders (that don't offer +dmg or -res) have significantly less value, but I don't consider everything being easy when we're all maxed out to actually be a problem. I really have no idea what Sentinels even do. I assume they can take over the nuke everything route when blasters aren't around. When blasters are there...well I've seen complaints.

 

Like I was saying, some people are content to just play and don't notice or don't care about this effect, but I do think it's there. I'll also acknowledge that if the team play involved the more deadly enemies in those upper levels, it would be less of a concern. But those enemy groups are rare, out of the way, and offer no greater rewards. Most players cruise on past them, accrue enough power to overcome them just as fast, and at that point DPS is the dominant strategy. The players that weren't progressing as fast, or don't have dps generating means are just not as valuable.

 

The solution then to appeal to this side that feels less valued, is not to nerf anyone, but to give them a greater role through various means.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Monos King

[Giovanni Valia]

If you're looking for a challenge past +4/8 you're probably better off looking for another server to play on. That's what I've been doing as of late. HC is not the only private server. It's refreshing to team with people who are not spamming incarnate powers with fully IO'd/ farmed characters. It's unlikely the HC dev team will do anything to undo the power creep tbh, especially if the ridiculous tanker buffs are anything to go by.

[Ghost]

I will say that I agree with you about controllers - although I’ve never leveled one past 35, so I’m really not speaking from experience.  They do seem to not play much of a role in higher level content.  Of course, maybe someone with one can elaborate more.

 

one of my few 50s is a rad/rad defender, and she most definitely contributes on higher level task forces (that’s mostly what I run).

In fact, I don’t ever remember being on a TF in which the defender was not appreciated.  Either with the buffs/debuffs, and even heals (ooh, the bad word no one likes to talk about). Having an emp will actually make the other players try things that may not normally try.

 

 

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Ghost said:

I will say that I agree with you about controllers - although I’ve never leveled one past 35, so I’m really not speaking from experience.  They do seem to not play much of a role in higher level content.  Of course, maybe someone with one can elaborate more.

 

one of my few 50s is a rad/rad defender, and she most definitely contributes on higher level task forces (that’s mostly what I run).

In fact, I don’t ever remember being on a TF in which the defender was not appreciated.  Either with the buffs/debuffs, and even heals (ooh, the bad word no one likes to talk about). Having an emp will actually make the other players try things that may not normally try.

 

 

I have a few top notch controllers that actually contribute as well as any other AT in max level decked out content worthy of a decked out team.

 

They lock the content down and neutralizes any threat while contributing dmg - would the team be ok without them - sure would but that can be said of any AT at that level - but they still contribute well and i usually get a few "awesome holds" during the course of the runs.

 

I wouldn't bring them out for radio missions, but there is content for them to be useful. I don't bring them out for radio missions - I don't remember the last time I've played a radio missions actually.

[Snarky]

7 hours ago, Ghost said:

Out of curiosity, which ATs do you feel have a sense of uselessness when on a team ?

 

 

I would say that at incarnate level Dom and Trollers usefulness drops off quite a bit. The damage they give up for control is not coming back. The control is either useless or not necessary in a lot of high end content

 

Sentinels and Crab Spiders invested in a multi faceted AT and in end game that suffers a bit where pure damage is king. Other squishies are propped up by league buffs with no investment in armor

[Coyotedancer]

Sentinels seem to get lost in the crowd on full teams... That's why I tend to think of them as characters that are best suited to smaller, 3-4 character teams or running solo/duo. They're more fun that way.

 

As for what else feels a little unneeded at end-game... I'd agree with Control-types, rather Controller-flavor or Doms, myself. Your set-up time can take longer than the spawn lasts, depending on the powerset. Some Support-types seem more useful than others, too. While I don't expect to ever hear any OHNOs when people see my Kin/Electric or Time/Dark Defenders on a high-level smash-team list, I would fully expect to get a skeptical look if I brought a Force Fielder,  

[oedipus_tex]

 

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

I would say that at incarnate level Dom and Trollers usefulness drops off quite a bit. The damage they give up for control is not coming back. The control is either useless or not necessary in a lot of high end content

 

Sentinels and Crab Spiders invested in a multi faceted AT and in end game that suffers a bit where pure damage is king. Other squishies are propped up by league buffs with no investment in armor

 

 

 

 

IMO what stands out about Dominators and Controllers in the current meta is the inaccuracy of their AoE Hold power compared to Blast set nukes. I mentioned a bit up thread about how currently some team members are fighting +3s and some fighting +5s. For a Controller level 49 or under fighting a +5 enemy, their AoE Hold is reduced to 30% strength, from Scale 8 to Scale 2.4. I don't actually know how much Accuracy and ToHit you need to hit with such an inaccurate power, but it's not possible to do that if the game is "balanced around SOs" as is the saying. You have to eat Yellows or get a lot of buff/debuff elsewhere.

 

Part of why I am pushing to refactor Level Shifts is so that when the difficulty is set to +3, the team leaders are fighting +3s and teammates are fighting +4s, not +5s like they currently are. The purple patch is brutal on a lot of effects, debuffs and control powers in particular.

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 7/9/2021 at 5:37 AM, Snarky said:

I am more irritated than entertained.  I lump you firmly in the category of people that post in LFG looking for a team to join a Reichsman TF and then crank it to +4 after everyone joins. Maybe I am wrong, but I sense a certain predisposition towards one side of "should we change this?" in your writing.  That you firmly have declined to own as your goal.

 

You are entertaining the discussion. I suppose I am involved. I do not feel entertained.

 

To me the divide is as wide as the ability to do this thing. How would a volunteer staff who are already working projects to the best of their ability dramatically alter the game. As an experiment. To see if it goes well. Why would they do it? Because someone started a thread that entertained discussion?

 

Homecoming gave us back a large chunk of who we want to be. You are entertaining a discussion about a huge change to that. I am firmly in the camp of Noooooo. I think I am done posting here for a while. Good evening.

I am in agreement with Snarky, this whole thread reeks of stirring the pot. And if I and Snarky are in anything remotely the same camp, that is practically the equivalent of statesman and recluse setting aside their inherently conflicting personal points of view to recognize a threat to all life as it is known.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 7/9/2021 at 2:19 PM, Faultline said:

You know, I have been playing Minecraft lately with the 1.17 update and started from scratch on a new server. I was actually surprised how difficult the game is when you're starting out with unenchanted iron armor. I died 5 times to creepers falling on my head, something I had grown used to ignoring as barely a nuisance. Exploring a big ravine was actually stressful and difficult. I started to wonder if the new terrain generation that creates much larger caves had caused a difficulty spike.

 

Then I got a full set of Diamond (not even Netherite) armor with Protection IV, and went back to having 5 creepers *at once* explode on me and not even register in my health.

 

My point is, this is not a COH or HC issue. If you grind to get the best stuff in the game, expect difficulty to become trivialized. COH with invention sets, incarnates and level shifts is like Minecraft with fully enchanted Netherite armor *and* potion spamming while eating golden apples. You can't balance normal game content against that, you'll murder all your players.

 

We can certainly add new content that is challenging for Incarnates, but a spike in difficulty across the board is a non-starter; it would be a lot of work that most people would just be angry about because their character feels nerfed. Difficulty settings don't really help here because critters can't go past level 54, and level shifts are granted via powers. Enemies in Dark Astoria belong to different enemy groups (eg. ArachnosEndgame) in order to have more difficult versions of the critters without affecting existing content.

There is a reason back on live my character who was meant to be a mere mortal man, never respecced after fitness became inherent. Frankly i wish we had that as an option in this version purely for self challenge/rp limitations.

 

I myself do not make a Superman to find challenge, I make one to negate it. Batman has to be smart and cunning and work his arse off for his victories, Superman sneezes and wipes away lethal pollution from a city. When I want the batman feeling I play my batman concepts, when I want to feel like superman I play my superman concepts. What is so hard about doing that, that others can not seem to switch gears or characters or play styles to suit a given mood?

 

Changes that make my mortal men more godly or my gods more mortal are not going to make this game worth playing just make my characters more generic.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

I would say that at incarnate level Dom and Trollers usefulness drops off quite a bit. The damage they give up for control is not coming back. The control is either useless or not necessary in a lot of high end content

 

Sentinels and Crab Spiders invested in a multi faceted AT and in end game that suffers a bit where pure damage is king. Other squishies are propped up by league buffs with no investment in armor

I mean snarky you do know that next to offenders it was trollers who first set records for solo killing GMs on live right? It is not the trollers being able to now solo every AV and GM that have been propped up. Tankers, scrappers, brutes, and stalkers rarely were Gm or even AV solo killers on live with a few exceptional builds shining out. The Dark/SR solo taking on 12 AVs for example come to mind, but they were all melee AVs cherry picked to show off such a scene even then.

 

The real issue is gamers and game devs in general tend to not like lock down cc powers. Across MMOdom complaints about actual lock down control powers is very common. Ironically the kinds of CC debuff effects that dont actually shut down mobs, are among the kinds of powers most hated by players here in coh, slow and sapping our power piss off many, as do powers like blind that force players to slow down, or phased mobs. Yet it is exactly these kinds of things when used against us that force our play loop pace to change which is the actual definition of challenge in game design. Any thing that forces a player to alter their play loop in an unexpected way. Even fake nemmy bubbling up and running around and making us stand around like sonic shaking in frustration at holding still is actually more a challenge then many other things we encounter in this game from a design pov.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

 

 

 

IMO what stands out about Dominators and Controllers in the current meta is the inaccuracy of their AoE Hold power compared to Blast set nukes. I mentioned a bit up thread about how currently some team members are fighting +3s and some fighting +5s. For a Controller level 49 or under fighting a +5 enemy, their AoE Hold is reduced to 30% strength, from Scale 8 to Scale 2.4. I don't actually know how much Accuracy and ToHit you need to hit with such an inaccurate power, but it's not possible to do that if the game is "balanced around SOs" as is the saying. You have to eat Yellows or get a lot of buff/debuff elsewhere.

 

Part of why I am pushing to refactor Level Shifts is so that when the difficulty is set to +3, the team leaders are fighting +3s and teammates are fighting +4s, not +5s like they currently are. The purple patch is brutal on a lot of effects, debuffs and control powers in particular.

 

For Dominators accuracy and +mobs this is largely not an issue.  They tend to slot for global recharge.  A LOT of sets that give global recharge also give global accuracy, and not just purple sets.  There is a lot of sets out there that follow that pattern.  

 

What kills it for control types is the trials.  Name some fights where you really get to use control effectively.  BAF, Lambda?  Keyes?  TPN?  Maybe a little inside the buildings.  Magisterium?  lol.  Maybe some of the Underground stuff.  The Devs used very choreographed setups to ensure we do not just control and burn stuff.  So....

[oedipus_tex]

28 minutes ago, Snarky said:

For Dominators accuracy and +mobs this is largely not an issue.  They tend to slot for global recharge.  A LOT of sets that give global recharge also give global accuracy, and not just purple sets.  There is a lot of sets out there that follow that pattern.  

 

What kills it for control types is the trials.  Name some fights where you really get to use control effectively.  BAF, Lambda?  Keyes?  TPN?  Maybe a little inside the buildings.  Magisterium?  lol.  Maybe some of the Underground stuff.  The Devs used very choreographed setups to ensure we do not just control and burn stuff.  So....

 

 

I mostly agree. I was speaking more to the "game is balanced around SOs" folks. Other than Dark Control's and Earth Control's improved AoE Holds, the standard AoE Holds either require an end game build, a commitment to swallowing inspirations, or a lot of +ToHit and -Defense support. I don't take them anymore when leveling up, they don't land.

 

For reference, after enhancements, with SOs the Mag 2.8 Hold you get from an AoE Hold when fighting +5 mobs is about 2.5 seconds longer than the Confuse duration of a tick of Arctic Air against same level enemies. 

Edited July 11, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Monos King]

21 minutes ago, Snarky said:

The Devs used very choreographed setups to ensure we do not just control and burn stuff.  So....

Like in Lambda instead of making mez short out some part of Marauders protection, they made a temporary power to cuck controllers and then spit on them by literally naming it a "Pacifier" grenade. Then while screaming "West Side!" it called it's boy Jocas just so they could mug mez itself in the Magisterium. 

 

Well, that might not be exactly what happened but it feels like it. I'm definitely of the opinion whatever trials may come in the future could fix that little problem. 

[Snarky]

53 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Like in Lambda instead of making mez short out some part of Marauders protection, they made a temporary power to cuck controllers and then spit on them by literally naming it a "Pacifier" grenade. Then while screaming "West Side!" it called it's boy Jocas just so they could mug mez itself in the Magisterium. 

 

Well, that might not be exactly what happened but it feels like it. I'm definitely of the opinion whatever trials may come in the future could fix that little problem. 

It would have been a veey different game if we has an option to pacify Marauder (even briefly) with control powers.  Especially if it did not screw the badge. Just open a one or two second window for league damage with level 4 mez or something 

[Uun]

Not sure why the Incarnate Trial versions of the AVs don't have the purple triangle cycle that normal mission/TF AVs do (50 seconds up/25 seconds down). In most contexts there is an opportunity for AVs to be controlled.

 

If you doubt what controllers can do in the end game, try running an all-controller, kill-all ITF at +4. It's great fun and stuff just melts.

[Snarky]

4 minutes ago, Uun said:

Not sure why the Incarnate Trial versions of the AVs don't have the purple triangle cycle that normal mission/TF AVs do (50 seconds up/25 seconds down). In most contexts there is an opportunity for AVs to be controlled.

 

If you doubt what controllers can do in the end game, try running an all-controller, kill-all ITF at +4. It's great fun and stuff just melts.

ITF is not "end game" now.  It is end game adjacent.  Same high rent, less cool stuff.

[Haijinx]

This game is easy.

 

With all the power creep it feels like playing with console commands. 

[Myrmidon]

4 hours ago, Snarky said:

It would have been a veey different game if we has an option to pacify Marauder (even briefly) with control powers.  Especially if it did not screw the badge. Just open a one or two second window for league damage with level 4 mez or something 

Unless they added a -Fly component to Marauder’s Boulder, you should still be able to Hover-Tank him. All he does at that point is stand around and throw rocks at you. I rolled that way on my second trial once I decided to Tank him, then sent it in as a possible exploit once the trial ended. It just didn’t feel fair to punk a Trial AV so easily.

[Yomo Kimyata]

16 hours ago, Monos King said:

This is natural, and a byproduct of both Nash Equilibrium and Dominant Strategy of Game Theory. As a result, doing anything else when these options are available quickly becomes "going out of your way", so I wonder if everyone actually enjoys those Architect farms, or just finds the rest of the game to be a hassle. I'll admit I do find that to be an immense shame, as there is a lot of content that makes the game special that is skipped over as a result of it. But people at the very least seem to like it, and that sort of things been staple since the game began, so I see it as fine.

 

This is true. But a lot of players don't want to glide through content - more specifically they don't want to be carried through content. One of the recurring reasons easy progression is an issue for some is the lack of role efficacy; I.E. not feeling needed on teams. We're looking for ways to address that without intruding on people who like the game at it's existing level of "difficulty", while also offering some amount of tactic. Here's a brief recap of those.

 

1) Customizable Incarnates courtesy of @Snarky

In exchange for lowered strength, you can alter the stats (or even nature) of incarnates. This would be done via an accompanying "side" slot option, or perhaps via a different slot altogether, and may or may not require additional salvage to do so. Will be entirely mutually exclusive with ordinary incarnates.

 

2) Incarnate Alternatives (Breakthrough)

Similarly in exchange for much lower potency, the option for more thematic and versatile end-game augments that are also mutually exclusive with incarnates. These are more in line with strong temporary powers, and are perhaps unlockable separately via conventional (non incarnate) progression and crafting. Characters that take breakthroughs are not incarnates and can't become them, but will still have similar level shifts in trials so they can participate in them.

 

Through the use of appealing alternatives, content would not be as saturated with game breakingly powerful characters, mitigating concerns of feeling unneeded in teams.

 

3) Increased means of lateral progression courtesy of @Luminara

Engaging in certain content is increasingly incentivized via additions such as additional souvenirs and unlockable emotes. In my opinion these options shouldn't be put in Ouro (much like a vast amount of temporary powers) but that would need community review. This takes inspiration from the affect badge hunting sometimes has in content, and while people would probably still just skip over that content and revisit it at higher levels, it might still lower progression speeds. People also might just like the additions.

 

If players have more reason to slow the quick climb to extreme power, then lower content will be less saturated with those that have extreme power.

 

4) New mechanics or enemies

Mechanics that encourage thoughtful encounters amongst enemy groups would be one's that pretty much say "hey, you shouldn't just try to burst dmg these guys. There's more to it".

This could be things like holds that disable high resistances or auto powers(courtesy of @oedipus_tex), debuff auras, dual victory conditions, or other possibilities. Maybe even we could get endurance drain to be useful by facing enemies with a pesky ability than will deactivate if the enemy loses a certain amount of End. Obviously we wouldn't be creating encounters that REQUIRE other roles; it wouldn't become impossible to overcome a certain boss with just blasters, but it would become so much easier with a source of mez or a certain strategy that you would be a boon if you could provide these utilities. 

 

If certain roles can find greater use compared to DPS, extreme power will be less of something that renders others useless.

 

Some honorable mentions;

I would love to see this idea in a mostly preserved form once the kinks are worked out. As it stands, the big issue is certain TF enemies are fixed at 54, which would make those that don't have incarnates endure greater difficulty than before. If those were adjusted, I think this stands to have genuine community consideration.

 

This isn't particular to the point of this thread, but quoted for truth. When things are made more difficult, there should be a little something extra to incentivize doing so.

 

I apologize for quoting the whole thing, but if I just snipped you wouldn't necessarily know which post I was referring to.  And thank you @Monos King for keeping the thread moving and to point.

 

I feel, however, that you are focusing on the assumption that endgame is the target point here, and that it is trivial to get to the overpowered endgame.  I don't disagree with that at all.

 

But 90+% of my game play is sub 50 and solo.  My concern about the game being too easy is actually based more on my sub-50 play, and I just wanted to make sure that my concerns are also taken into account.  I get that I may be in the minority here, and if almost everyone is PLing their characters to 50 and then equipping them, and the devs want to address that meta, that's great.  Won't affect me much, but that's great.

 

What I don't want is for that meta to affect mechanics that forcibly change my game play.  Now an example:  I mentioned my dislike of SOs at level 2...

 

*crowd boos, throws tomatoes*

 

I get that some/many/everyone except me want to skip everything below 22 (or 35, or 50), but I don't.  I like playing new alts and unfamiliar sets and equipping as I go.  That's how I learn how to use various sets in ways that appeal to me.  Now it is true that I don't have to equip any enhancements at all, and it is also true that I can deliberately nerf myself in sub-level 22 play.  But now my level 7 character has 4-slotted attacks with 1 accuracy/3 damage for max chance to hit and roughly 100% damage.  Comparing that to TOs (which don't even exist anymore I don't think) that's about 3x as much enhancement as I could have had on a maxxed out TO character.  I have the choice between having a ridiculously powerful character fighting opponents that were designed for TO slotted characters, or by deliberating prohibiting myself from building the best character I can.

 

In the grand scheme of things, it's not a big deal.  (and the auto upgrade mechanism for SOs is great!  It has some bugs I think, and I'd love to be able to auto upgrade only some rather than all, but that's a different kettle of fish.)  And I get why people love the new SO system.  It makes their characters 2-3 times as powerful as they were before!  That's great if your objective is to blow through levels 1-22 as quickly as possible!  But it's not my choice, and I'm forced to accept the changes to reduce my enjoyment to increase the enjoyment of others.  I'm ok with that, but I want it to be known this isn't a Pareto equilibrium.

 

A less pedantic and completely theoretical example:  let's say that the devs choose to rework Regeneration in some way or another because incarnate regeneration characters are somehow underperforming.  If everyone wants that, cool.  But please be really cautious to see how those changes would affect sub-50 play, because it would make me tear my hair out if suddenly my regeneration alts are twice as powerful as they were before and the level of competition remained unchanged.

 

Just some of my thoughts.  I don't expect them to be popular or even shared by a single other entity, but they are mine.  Buffs kill!

[Galaxy Brain]

On 7/9/2021 at 6:22 PM, BZRKR said:

Please correct me if I am reading your post incorrectly, but it seems to me that:

1) It is frustrating that people predominantly do not play the way you want to,

2) Some people "dampen" the game for others.

3) Those people who "dampen" the game for others should be guided away from the others whose game is being dampened.

 

So, for the first point, I'd say that you either need to communicate in this MMO as if you were at a tabletop, and make friends who you can team with in a non-frustrating way, or get in bed with the idea that you want to make the whole population exclusively play your way.

For the second point, I guess I need a good definition for "dampen". I guess it's something like the feeling you get when you wind up a long-animating attack and halfway through, your target gets blown up?

For the third point, setting aside the issue of wanting to separate players based on playstyle, I think the remedy here is more content that requires a specific amount of godhood, and has cool enough rewards to make them worthwhile.

 

The frustration is more directed at the common answer of "oh, you can find ways to make the game engaging if you turn in these settings, and ask everyone to play your way!" What is often missed with the defense of "you are not forced to play their way" is that it can easily be reversed when you are making teams / asking folks to change on their end too.

 

The dampen bit refers to two things which are hard to communicate around, especially if it is prevalent. One, having all these PI teams / Farm teams boost lowbies only takes away from team prospects in other bits of the game. Why play story arcs when you can go to PI or Doorsit? Two, joining teams with super powered lvl 50+ folks is like you two are playing different games. It is often not too fun to feel like you can't even get your powers off, let alone your powers don't matter when they do land with others blasting by you.

 

The game naturally sort of pushes you to Incarnate/ IOs as you peruse your dropped items or exp last 50, and everywhere a player asks they will be pointed to builds on reddit, discord, and Facebook to tips on how to get powerful quickly. Combine it all together and you get a double whammy where folks fly by most of the game to 50+, and once there they are much better at content than you are of you go "all naturale" due to lvl shifts and the like, assuming you both play well. With not much to do with all that power, they go to the most bang for their buck with Radios / farms / weekly targets. Other things like incarnate clicks making whole ATs sorta "eh" at end game is an intertwined subject too.

 

The solution to this should be to make the tasks available to such powerful players worthy of their skills. A new area of content meant for players that are beyond the base game on top of cool merits for the taking could be something that helps mitigate the issue of super characters running the show in the 40s. Would that stop PI radios? No. Farms? Likely no as well. Would it give people something new and engaging to do with their higher tier characters and possibly "free" up earlier content for those who can't compete in those? Maybe!

[Snarky]

42 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

What I don't want is for that meta to affect mechanics that forcibly change my game play.  Now an example:  I mentioned my dislike of SOs at level 2...

 

*crowd boos, throws tomatoes*

 

Throw a tomato?  Why waste it.  This is a LOT of stupid all bundled up in one example.

 

I started a new Stalker to solo all Redside with.  Have completed seven of the contacts on Mercy. Currently level 8.  He has 4 (4!)  F O U R Single Origin Enhancers.  and no, please do not multiply 4x4x4 and try to claim I said 64...   If those SO were not available through merchant I used to stockpile DFB ones and buy some from Auction for later use and store in my base.  But if there were no SOs pre 25 I would (oh no!) have used Dual Origin.  And have.  And it doesnt make a squat to of difference in clear times on these stupid missions.

 

So, stay up on your soapbox rambling about that nonsense.  I'll save the tomato

[JJDrakken]

It doesn't matter if you make stuff harder or not.

 

Majority the player base doesn't want it. They'll just sit in farms or lvl 50 teams or whatever. They try take easiest route. They won't play Redside cuz that side is actually harder then blue. So if you wanna jack up Blue with harder units, folks going be unhappy.

 

The amount of bitching and quitting, I've seen from folks when you load Malta or Dark Astoria Content, or high level Praetorian Stuff with the Squid Heads.  Folks want to sit in a farm, afk and do work or read a book or whatever and not actually play the game. Those that do, stick to easier things.  I've had so many folks(50s) even go what content is this? What contact gives this? I never even knew stuff like this was in this game. 

 

That tells me majority don't bother exploring do to Farmers teaching and allowing bad habits of afk farming or AE farming in general. 

 

So I feel it's all just moot. You want something tougher, play red. Content from lvl 1-20 is harder then most content from 1-40 for Blueside folks(Cept for maybe CoT Ruin Mages, but even then we get those clowns sooner on red then blue).

Edited July 11, 2021 by JJDrakken