Well, devs, my favorite TF is no longer fun to solo.

[Triumphant]

On 9/20/2021 at 6:51 AM, skoryy said:

 

Do I need to repost the 'Quit Having Fun' pic?

 

I personally don't have the patience for soloing a TF.  However, if others do and enjoy themselves while doing so and can pull it off - who am I to tell them no?

 

It's not that I object to players doing solo content, mind you.  It's just that Task Forces were designed for team play and I don't know how you can keep a task force fun for a team and a single player at the same time, given the current state of the game.

 

There's plenty of solo content that's perfectly viable for solo play.  I just feel that TF's/SF's should be challenging for the 8-person teams they were designed for, when set at the highest (+4/8) difficulty level.

[Doomguide2005]

@Triumphant    

Well I'd say that's a nearly impossible if not impossible task (but highly desirable) given that fun is highly subjective in any game this one included.  It even varies with each player over time.  Some days I want to push a particular build to its utter limits other days (hours even) I find the fun mindlessly chewing through hordes.  Sometimes I want to push a particular team concept (all Controller, all Empathy defenders, all Dark, etc) to their limits or just PuG with whatever comes to hand.  Lately been thinking about what (all controllers)-> 5 Fire/Sonic, 2 Fire/Cold and a Fire/Kin might do and wonder what they'd do with endgame content both as fully incarnated and SO only builds built as a static team.  So in theory even keeping this one player totally satisfied all the time is likely problematic ... nevermind a few thousand different me's. 

 

     And I think for your 'average player' the majority of task forces are an enjoyable challenge.  Or we wouldn't be here discussing this very topic.

[skoryy]

58 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

It's just that Task Forces were designed for team play and I don't know how you can keep a task force fun for a team and a single player at the same time, given the current state of the game.

 

That's just it, though, you don't have to.  Task forces are designed for teams, beating it solo is a challenge created by determined players.  Nobody's asking for reverting the changes made to the ITF or for team content to be made soloable.  They made their own fun with the ITF and frankly I remain impressed that they have the builds and mental stamina to pull off a Werner Rules ITF.  There's nothing wrong with that.

[Triumphant]

Quote

They made their own fun with the ITF and frankly I remain impressed that they have the builds and mental stamina to pull off a Werner Rules ITF.

 

What's Werner Rules?  🤔  Google hath failed to enlighten me.  🤷‍♂️

[Triumphant]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

@Triumphant    

Well I'd say that's a nearly impossible if not impossible task (but highly desirable) given that fun is highly subjective in any game this one included.  It even varies with each player over time.  Some days I want to push a particular build to its utter limits other days (hours even) I find the fun mindlessly chewing through hordes.  Sometimes I want to push a particular team concept (all Controller, all Empathy defenders, all Dark, etc) to their limits or just PuG with whatever comes to hand.  Lately been thinking about what (all controllers)-> 5 Fire/Sonic, 2 Fire/Cold and a Fire/Kin might do and wonder what they'd do with endgame content both as fully incarnated and SO only builds built as a static team.  So in theory even keeping this one player totally satisfied all the time is likely problematic ... nevermind a few thousand different me's. 

 

     And I think for your 'average player' the majority of task forces are an enjoyable challenge.  Or we wouldn't be here discussing this very topic.

 

Fair points.  That's true enough.

[KaoticKarl]

10 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

 

What's Werner Rules?  🤔  Google hath failed to enlighten me.  🤷‍♂️

 

It's about midway down the page:

MoITF +4x8 no temps no insps no base buffs no Lore no deaths enemies buffed player debuffed = Werner's Rules

 

 

[Werner]

7 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

And I think for your 'average player' the majority of task forces are an enjoyable challenge.  Or we wouldn't be here discussing this very topic.

 

My friends and I tried a 4 person ITF a while back as "average players" - our leveling builds, high level but I don't think 50 yet across the board, some IOs but not a lot, using inspirations. I think we ran it +2x8, definitely wasn't +4x8, and this was before the extra defense got added back in. We got killed over and over on the final mission and eventually gave up. So yeah, I'm sure the ITF can still be a challenge for teams of average players.

 

6 hours ago, KaoticKarl said:

MoITF +4x8 no temps no insps no base buffs no Lore no deaths enemies buffed player debuffed = Werner's Rules

 

Player debuffed is an optional additional challenge. So is no amps. I only did it that way once, and that was before the defense change. Maybe still doable, just slower, but I'm not sure and I don't know if I care to find out. I think more people have done it without amps than with amps, but I'm a filthy full-time amplifier user on my SD/MA Tanker. Also, with the defense increase, I think I'd find no amps just as annoying as @Bill Z Bubba found it. This all came together in the long Tanker thread above, with a lot of us completing it on a lot of different builds, not all of them Tankers, and with different tweaks to the rules.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Werner

[KaoticKarl]

18 hours ago, Werner said:

Maybe still doable, just slower, but I'm not sure and I don't know if I care to find out.

 

Don't blame you here. I soloed the ITF once with my tanker no amps, and took me long enough that I won't bother doing that again on any toon, especially if the clutter mobs are now buffed even more. It was fun to a degree, until I hit the Rommie fight and the slog started. Never once in danger, but so slow I was almost bored to death instead, lol.

[ninja surprise]

On 9/21/2021 at 9:22 AM, Triumphant said:

  I just feel that TF's/SF's should be challenging for the 8-person teams they were designed for, when set at the highest (+4/8) difficulty level.

 

Is there any point in adding /8 if you're already on a 8 person team?

 

I finally got around to organizing an all SD ITF and we ran it at +4 defeat all since we were all aggro-magnets. We really did defeat-all, including the Cyst map rooms that only had Romans and no cysts.

 

Team was:

Tank

1. Stone Melee <- my toon called Ground Combat
2. Energy Melee

Brute

1. Dark Melee 
2. War Mace
3. Psionic Melee
4. Electrical Melee

Scrapper

1. Electrical Melee
2. Electrical Melee

One of the Scrappers DC'd as we exited the first mission so it was the 7 of us from then on.  As far as I can recall only the Scrappers ever died and the one who stayed with us was 46 at start and I don't think he had any set bonuses yet. He had a super cool name though: Ohm Depot for his Elec/Shield with a costume that looked like a certain home improvement store employee.

 

We had a blast and it was amazing with all the Shield Charges going on. Defense was always high and but the Romans had high def too, so there were lots of times where we had the whole room herded and "Deflected" scrolled up more than any orange numbers. I had Focused Acc running and still missed quite a bit. Only one person had Leadership.  I wish someone had Radiation Melee.

 

 

[Triumphant]

Quote

Is there any point in adding /8 if you're already on a 8 person team?

You know, I'm going to confess that I don't actually know the answer to this.  I always assumed that it would increase the difficulty for teams, just as it does when playing solo.  Of course, this may not necessarily be the case.

 

Quote

He had a super cool name though: Ohm Depot for his Elec/Shield with a costume that looked like a certain home improvement store employee.

Nice! 😁👍

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Triumphant said:

You know, I'm going to confess that I don't actually know the answer to this.  I always assumed that it would increase the difficulty for teams, just as it does when playing solo.  Of course, this may not necessarily be the case.

 

8 character team running at +4/x1 should have the exact same spawn size/layout, barring normal randomness, as 1 player running at +4/x8.

[Voltak]

On 9/11/2021 at 9:22 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Your "fix" for cimeroran stacking defense now makes the entire thing a whiff fest of deflected messages. It's not more difficult, it's just more boring. It was unnecessary. Yes, I could alter my builds to add more acc and tohit buffs, or buy offense amps or chew through yellow insps but instead I just won't bother anymore.

THis was really a fix. 
Shield Defense set is supposed to do what is doing now but was not doing before. 

If players now running shield did not get the effects that shield defense is supposed to do, they would be reporting that here in the forums and writing support tickets so they can fix that. 

Well, that coin has two sides.  IT should be fixed for you as a player and it should be fixed for them since they also have shield defense sets. 

THis obviously presents a challenge and challenges are fun.  

You were playing before under a system that was broken and was not granting a buff that should have been there since day 1 of the ITF. 

It was way easier to do it before and because it is way easier before THAT WAS boring

ANything too easy is boring 

The fun is in the challenge

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

8 character team running at +4/x1 should have the exact same spawn size/layout, barring normal randomness, as 1 player running at +4/x8.

Yeah as far as I know the setting is just that the setting.  Doesn't matter what the team (or lack there of) is +4/×8 sets the mobs at +4 no matter teams size and likewise the team portion, regardless of its actually size, is generated as if the team had 8 members.

[Voltak]

ITF done since the fix to cimerorans

[Voltak]

On 9/22/2021 at 3:34 PM, KaoticKarl said:

 

Don't blame you here. I soloed the ITF once with my tanker no amps, and took me long enough that I won't bother doing that again on any toon, especially if the clutter mobs are now buffed even more. It was fun to a degree, until I hit the Rommie fight and the slog started. Never once in danger, but so slow I was almost bored to death instead, lol.

@Nova's tanker 

Stone/Super Str 

Did the ITF, 54 x8, no insps, no temps allowed, no deaths 

36 minutes 
*** before the fix to Shield defense for Cimerorans ***

Edited September 25, 2021 by Voltak

[Aurora_Girl]

Just tried (+Ox8, for a control) on my kitted DB/EnA stalker, smooth if slow until the last general group on Mish 3 and I forgot to keep an eye on my health while spinning to look for surgeons. I call it user error. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, Voltak said:

It was way easier to do it before and because it is way easier before THAT WAS boring

ANything too easy is boring 

The fun is in the challenge

 

No. It's boring now because of all the missing. I'm in no more danger than I was before so there's no more challenge to it at all. Yes, it's a fix. Fixes have consequences. In this case, the consequence was something I enjoyed no longer being enjoyable. Exactly as stated in the OP.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, Voltak said:

@Nova's tanker 

Stone/Super Str 

Did the ITF, 54 x8, no insps, no temps allowed, no deaths 

36 minutes 
*** before the fix to Shield defense for Cimerorans ***

 

Wow, solo with a tank in 36 mins without temps and insps? I'm sure we'd all love to know how you pulled that off.

[Sovera]

Same. Smelling shenanigans since we're talking of shaving an hour and half or more.

[Voltak]

23 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Wow, solo with a tank in 36 mins without temps and insps? I'm sure we'd all love to know how you pulled that off.

Correction here 

I contacted Nova

Nova himself gave me the info

I confused the number I saw on the channel message of the day on the day I saw it

The TWO TANKS time is 36 mins 

The SOLO tank is one hour and 20 minutes 

 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Voltak

[Voltak]

16 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

No. It's boring now because of all the missing. I'm in no more danger than I was before so there's no more challenge to it at all. Yes, it's a fix. Fixes have consequences. In this case, the consequence was something I enjoyed no longer being enjoyable. Exactly as stated in the OP.

You contradict yourself in the same post. 

1. "... now because of all the missing " -  admitting that it is more challenging now to hit those enemies , thus admitting as well that the ITF is more challenging 

2. But you also deny that the ITF is more of a challenge now. 

 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Voltak

[Wavicle]

Sounds like it was a good fix.

[Wavicle]

I think the question of "Is Accuracy/ToHit/Defense as designed in CoH a good and fun system?" is clearly separate from "Are Romans working as intended?"

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I think the question of "Is Accuracy/ToHit/Defense as designed in CoH a good and fun system?" is clearly separate from "Are Romans working as intended?"

 

This. Missing only adds challenge if it slows you down enough that you die. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a time consuming annoyance. Two very different things.

[Voltak]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

This. Missing only adds challenge if it slows you down enough that you die. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a time consuming annoyance. Two very different things.

Missing proves that there is an added challenge. 

The challenge is actually being able to hit them. 

They have more defenses so obviously they present a new challenge.  
If they are more difficult to hit than before then it is more challenging to defeat them. 

This is not even up for debate