Well, devs, my favorite TF is no longer fun to solo.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Your "fix" for cimeroran stacking defense now makes the entire thing a whiff fest of deflected messages. It's not more difficult, it's just more boring. It was unnecessary. Yes, I could alter my builds to add more acc and tohit buffs, or buy offense amps or chew through yellow insps but instead I just won't bother anymore.

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Your "fix" for cimeroran stacking defense now makes the entire thing a whiff fest of deflected messages. It's not more difficult, it's just more boring. It was unnecessary. Yes, I could alter my builds to add more acc and tohit buffs, or buy offense amps or chew through yellow insps but instead I just won't bother anymore.

 

What did they fix? I know I did one this morning and the whiffing was pretty noticeable.

[The_Warpact]

Wait what happened!?!

[SuperPlyx]

Huh, I must have missed something I thought the latest Cim stuff was only for AE critters

[Crysis]

Im wondering if the fixes to the AE Cims actually were applied to all PVE versions as well?

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

42 minutes ago, Sovera said:

What did they fix? I know I did one this morning and the whiffing was pretty noticeable.

 

A dev would need to explain the specifics, as I know I'm getting it wrong, but it looks like a power that was disabled, that functions like phalanx fighting, was turned back on when it should have been re-enabled back on live. A move I support in general. It was probably the right move but missing a lot definitely removes enjoyment from the game for me.

 

Again, builds can be changed. Just soured me out this morning.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

If you dont have at least 80% acc into an attack it should feel pretty whiffy imo, especially against def based mobs. You should be having to run additional to hit buffs to hit them reliably. Otherwise they may as remove mob def entirely and just go with heavy amounts of DR on all mobs.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

If you dont have at least 80% acc into an attack it should feel pretty whiffy imo, especially against def based mobs. You should be having to run additional to hit buffs to hit them reliably. Otherwise they may as remove mob def entirely and just go with heavy amounts of DR on all mobs.

 

Character has base +45% Acc. Mids is showing Followup to be sitting at 175.3% Acc. Single stack of followup adds 11.75% tohit buff. I really shouldn't be getting strings of misses cycling through follow, focus, slash trying to get followup to land even once. Yes, I was at max diff, like I do.

[Aurora_Girl]

Is there a way to get a Power Analyzer in there? I know we kinda dug into the CoD of the Roman Armor power, and at x8 it's definitely noticable when the groups start to exponentially get larger. Even the minions were almost at like a 90% miss chance when we weren't running all-VEATs. 

[Cobalt Arachne]

 

Quote

 

Powers

 

The power "Energized Shield" that most Cimeroran critters should have was accidentally removed during a previous patch. It has been restored, with a bit of a naming shuffle:

• "Energized Shield" actually had the effects of the power "Phalanx Fighting" from Shield Defense, so it has been renamed to match that.
• Cimerorans also had a "Phalanx Fighting" power which was just a basic self defense auto, so it has been renamed to "Roman Armor".
• There were no changes to the actual powers, just the names. Cimerorans have the exact same powers they had from their release until Issue 24, besides the name changes.

 

This was a bug fix in the last patch to rectify that it was temporarily disabled previously due to it being the primary suspect in a severe performance problem on the third mission of the Imperious Task Force.

Later, the actual culprit was identified and fixed on that map, and it had nothing to due with Energized Shield (now Roman Armor), so the power was re-added and the group's difficulty restored to what it had always been for the entire duration of its existence on the live servers. The only thing done was the content being returned to the original difficulty.

You can see the power in question, Energized Shield, in the archived Paragon Wiki:

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Cimeroran_Traitors

The description on it is wrong of course, it should have had Phalanx Fighting's description, but it functions as intended.

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

The only thing done was the content being returned to the original difficulty.

 

I honestly can't remember if I ever soloed it back before the snap. So this all makes sense. Still not as fun as it's been the last two years but I get it.

[BillyMailman]

Providing some numbers (some duplication, I started typing before Cobalt posted):

 

Phalanx Fighting is the old name for the power the Cims always had, which is in no way like the player Phalanx Fighting. It's just a flat amount of defense to SLFCEN, no psi and no positional. Exact numbers may vary by specific unit, and it also gives some resistance defense debuff. This power was renamed to Roman Armor.

 

Energized Shield is the old name for a power that the Cimerorans had at one point, but that got removed. It's added back, and renamed to Phalanx Fighting. This one works like player Phalanx Fighting, and gives all Cims a bit of mez resistance as long as they have at least one ally nearby, and a scaling amount of defense based on the number of nearby allies. For a Centurion, e.g., this is +3% defense to SLFCEN per ally within eight feet, up to a maximum of +48% defense. Adding their base defense of 15% from what is now named Roman Armor, they have a whopping 63% defense to all those types.

 

In teams, this probably won't matter too much, and runs I've been on bear that out. First, because having seventeen enemies within eight feet of each other is ridiculous, so the numbers won't be quite so astronomical. But also, most people have some +ToHit in their builds from set bonuses, there's tactics stacking up, someone might be on a Time character using Farsight, etc. Plus, any time someone opens a fight with Build Up and then a nuke power, they'll have a solid hit chance on the nuke, which will thin out minions and drop a lot of that defense off the Lts/Bosses. For a large team, that kind of opening can be happening every fight.

 

But for Bill Z, soloing a +4x8 ITF is his way of relaxing. And this change means he's gonna be missing a lot of attacks, at least until he can thin out the minions in a given group.

 

NB: The numbers above are based on the Alpha data on CoD, which is from Aug. 11th. I'm assuming it's the same numbers as made it live, but  CoD hasn't updated its live data yet since that patch, so I can't actually 100% confirm.

[Cobalt Arachne]

11 minutes ago, BillyMailman said:

Energized Shield is the old name for a power that the Cimerorans had at one point, but that got removed. It's added back, and renamed to Phalanx Fighting. This one works like player Phalanx Fighting, and gives all Cims a bit of mez resistance as long as they have at least one ally nearby, and a scaling amount of defense based on the number of nearby allies. For a Centurion, e.g., this is +3% defense to SLFCEN per ally within eight feet, up to a maximum of +48% defense. Adding their base defense of 15% from what is now named Roman Armor, they have a whopping 63% defense to all those types.

Just to be thorough, I went and pulled up one of the old archived versions of the game that was only ever touched by Paragon and looked at the power to make sure we didn't inadvertently make any numerical errors, and can confirm it's the exact same there as it is currently: +3% DEF (All but Psi) per ally and +3 magnitude protection once.

[BillyMailman]

Minor correction: The mez bit doesn't stack. Having one ally is needed, but CoD shows it as tagged not to stack at all.

[Cobalt Arachne]

4 minutes ago, BillyMailman said:

Minor correction: The mez bit doesn't stack. Having one ally is needed, but CoD shows it as tagged not to stack at all.

This is correct, and also accurate to the archived game version. The defense was flagged as kStack and the mez was flagged as kReplace.

[Hedgefund]

I posted a "bug" in the bug forums and was told "not a bug" when I pointed out their "Phalanx Fighting" could generate 40% def (screeny in that post with power analyzer results).  So while there are multiple mobs meleeing you, you'll see astounding def numbers and I don't know what kind of slotting it would take to compensate for that.

Edited September 11, 2021 by Hedgefund

[Bopper]

4 minutes ago, Hedgefund said:

I posted a "bug" in the bug forums and was told "not a bug" when I pointed out their "Phalanx Fighting" could generate 40% def (screeny in that post with power analyzer results).  So while there are multiple mobs meleeing you, you'll see astounding def numbers and I don't know what kind of slotting it would take to compensate for that.

Compensate by not remaining stagnant. The buffs are only 8 foot radius, so I recommend to move around so they can't remain clustered and pick them off individually. The duration of the buff is only 1.25s, so it won't take long to move a foe outside the buff radius and have their defense drop. I'm not saying to completely separate them, obviously...that's an extreme playstyle change. But you can easily make it so 16 foes are not all within 8 feet of eachother allowing for super strong defense buffs.

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, BillyMailman said:

Energized Shield is the old name for a power that the Cimerorans had at one point, but that got removed. It's added back, and renamed to Phalanx Fighting.

 

So, in short, what you're saying is...

 

*sings* Everybody was phalanx fightiiing... *Ha!*

[Luminara]

16 minutes ago, Greycat said:

*sings* Everybody was phalanx fightiiing...

 

Those Romans are as fast as lightning.

@Bill Z Bubba says they're not very frightening.

@Cobalt Arachne replied with expert timing.

 

Wait, are we singing the Carl Douglas version or the Tom Jones version?  Because if we're using the Tom Jones version, I can add a couple more names in the next bit.

 

Then @BillyMailman

Dropped a numbers bomb,

And @Bopper jumped on in

And moved the thread along.

 

I know.  It's a gift.  No applause, just throw money.  Ow.  OW.  I said money, not nickels!  OW!  STOP!

[Doomguide2005]

7 hours ago, Hedgefund said:

I posted a "bug" in the bug forums and was told "not a bug" when I pointed out their "Phalanx Fighting" could generate 40% def (screeny in that post with power analyzer results).  So while there are multiple mobs meleeing you, you'll see astounding def numbers and I don't know what kind of slotting it would take to compensate for that.

Powers not slotting per se.  You need To Hit buffs.  If running at +4 then your base chance (excluding level shift) is 39%.  Now subtract 40 and be glad it's clamped at 5%.  You would need utterly silly amounts of accuracy to get that anywhere near 95%.  I think vs +3's that's 48 instead of 39 so your off the floor at least and up to 8% ... that's about 1200% accuracy if my math is correct off the cuff.  To Hit buffs -> Kismet, Tactics and Focused Accuracy (or teammates).

Edited September 12, 2021 by Doomguide2005

[Miss Magical]

I was on a 54/x8 enemies buffed ITF and my fire/ss tank with double Rage (so over +50% tohit) was still missing. Granted, I don't know if the "enemies buffed" challenge setting also gives them +def. I was quite surprised to see def that rage could not punch through.

 

I think the more effective solution is debuffs! The same TF, same settings, but with all corruptors/defenders had no more than the usual amount of misses.

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Miss Magical said:

I was on a 54/x8 enemies buffed ITF and my fire/ss tank with double Rage (so over +50% tohit) was still missing. Granted, I don't know if the "enemies buffed" challenge setting also gives them +def. I was quite surprised to see def that rage could not punch through.

 

I think the more effective solution is debuffs! The same TF, same settings, but with all corruptors/defenders had no more than the usual amount of misses.

Defense Debuffs will help more than Accuracy mods will but not as much as straight up To Hit buffs.  But a nice combination of debuffs and to hit buffs that support heavy teams often carry is going to be very good.  Little surprised your Rage didn't work better but if that's factored into your usual final hit numbers then their added defense is still hurting.  Add in the TF setting and maybe it wasn't enough.  Only the combat logs will tell for certain (plus Power Analyzer) or watching your last hit chance in combat attributes.

[gamingglen]

You could lower the difficulty for the mission(s).

 

Yeah, I know, I speak heresy.  😄  

[InvaderStych]

Gave the new Cimmies a go with the Psi/SD scrappy +3/x8 repeatable mission just for brevity.  The stacked defense when 2 groups are swarmed is a bit much, but outside big swarms the hit rate is manageable solo - found myself spamming CT a few times for a bit of extra to-hit not biggie.

 

More interesting to me is that they've become, after a certain point, seemingly immune to the knock-up from both Mass Lev and Shield Charge.  Makes sense - Mag 3 protection is stronger than both of those secondary effects, iirc - Mighty still sends them flying, for example.  Interestingly they don't seem to toggle up until combat starts; either that or something else strange is going on as the knock immunity does seem to A: not be there for the first volley of combat and B: not comprehensive in that of the mobs hit by either ML or SC, some will fly some will not.  Disregarding the misses, naturally.

 

So, my (not really serious) question is this:

 

When is player Phalanx Fighting getting it's cap of 3 stacks removed? 😉

 

 

[Sovera]

I think it is the shouting that makes them more resistant to KB effects. My Ice Patch sometimes works and sometimes not. Most often not. I suppose yelling does make the ground less slippery or something.