Anyone else notice a slowly increasing number of people joining groups just to solo?

[Seigmoraig]

19 hours ago, QuiJon said:

You do get that to some people that is normal and not a speed tactic right? I have been on alot of ITFs where the plan is to run to kill the AV and nictus and then you hit the tower tops to get your 300 kills. I mean it is common enough with the people i play with that someone normally asks if we are killing a pathway and which one or to head strait to the AV. It really doesnt matter if you kill the AV and let his adds count as part of the 300 and then go pick up the rest or if you skip the paths and kill the AVs and adds and then take out the towers you still kill about the same amount of enemies and it takes about the same amount of time. 

I have run and hosted ITF regularly for months and no, sorry this is not a normal tactic unless it is called as a speed run.

What part of doing the strict minimum of kills to finish the mission make it anything other than a speed run ?
The point of running ITF with a character that is under level 50 is to get XP, not merits/hour and skipping 75% of the mission cuts a huge chunk of my XP, especially if the run is not stated as being a speed run and you didn't ask if it was cool to skip

Edited September 28, 2021 by Seigmoraig

[arcane]

32 minutes ago, Seigmoraig said:

I have run and hosted ITF regularly for months and no, sorry this is not a normal tactic unless it is called as a speed run.

What part of doing the strict minimum of kills to finish the mission make it anything other than a speed run ?
The point of running ITF with a character that is under level 50 is to get XP, not merits/hour and skipping 75% of the mission cuts a huge chunk of my XP, especially if the run is not stated as being a speed run and you didn't ask if it was cool to skip

Question: by not a speed run, do you mean you explicitly advertised it as a kill most? Speed tf’s are so common that I don’t think you can blame anyone unless you yourself were explicit about it.

 

Also, one could easily argue that the lowbies’ xp isn’t diminished unless the xp/hour is diminished, which is not a problem in a speed tf.

Edited September 28, 2021 by arcane

[Seigmoraig]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

Question: by not a speed run, do you mean you explicitly advertised it as a kill most? Speed tf’s are so common that I don’t think you can blame anyone unless you yourself were explicit about it.

 

Also, one could easily argue that the lowbies’ xp isn’t diminished unless the xp/hour is diminished, which is not a problem in a speed tf.

Maybe on your server it's different but on Everlasting it's not implied that any and every TF run is a speed run. If I run a Yin TF and it's not advertised as a speed run, there is no skipping straight to Clamor, same with ITF. If I advertise a Speed Run then it's implied that we will be skipping all available content. 

The XP/hour is most certainly diminished in a speed run because we are skipping most of the mobs in mission 3 and 4. Not sure in which fantasy world you live in but forming a TF takes time, easily 10-15 mins when the TF in question isn't the weekly TF, so speeding the run without a doubt greatly impacts the XP gain of lower level characters. 

Honestly I don't even understand how speeding a TF hurts XP is even a topic of debate 

[arcane]

10 minutes ago, Seigmoraig said:

Maybe on your server it's different but on Everlasting it's not implied that any and every TF run is a speed run. If I run a Yin TF and it's not advertised as a speed run, there is no skipping straight to Clamor, same with ITF. If I advertise a Speed Run then it's implied that we will be skipping all available content. 

The XP/hour is most certainly diminished in a speed run because we are skipping most of the mobs in mission 3 and 4. Not sure in which fantasy world you live in but forming a TF takes time, easily 10-15 mins when the TF in question isn't the weekly TF, so speeding the run without a doubt greatly impacts the XP gain of lower level characters. 

Honestly I don't even understand how speeding a TF hurts XP is even a topic of debate 

1) It’s clearly not implied to everyone or this thread wouldn’t exist. Consider being explicit.

 

2) Skipping mobs lowers the TF’s total XP yield. That does not mean it lowers the XP/time rate. Fighting fewer mobs in fewer minutes can easily mean your XP/time rate is not lowered, or is even increased. Some people care more about the rate than the grand total.

[Snarky]

5 hours ago, JasperStone said:

 

This is Fred.

Fred is dead.

Don't be a Fred. 

 

Sorry Snarky ...it just popped into my head. ❤️ 

 

 

I was in a pysch ward for a hot minute (real shock to most of you I am sure)

 

During that period, in 'crafts' I made a clay skull, painted it black, named it Fred.  

 

That is something I have not remembered for a long long time.  But it popped into my head 🙂

 

[QuiJon]

5 hours ago, Seigmoraig said:

I have run and hosted ITF regularly for months and no, sorry this is not a normal tactic unless it is called as a speed run.

What part of doing the strict minimum of kills to finish the mission make it anything other than a speed run ?
The point of running ITF with a character that is under level 50 is to get XP, not merits/hour and skipping 75% of the mission cuts a huge chunk of my XP, especially if the run is not stated as being a speed run and you didn't ask if it was cool to skip

You are assuming that wanting to be proactive in the time that it takes to complete some how denotes wanting to speed it. The instances i have mentioned our complete time is still within the kind of standard 45 minute range. We didnt "speed" the TF in any way. That doesnt mean that you can not take advantage of the mission that is given to you. And in that mission you can do the majority of the fighting in the courtyard and tower tops in order to complete it. 

 

If i am running a TF and suddenly get a kill x council mission. Is it now speeding the taskforce if instead of running around trying to find council on a map they are rare on that i run to independence port and kill them quickly around the train? 

[Ukase]

On 9/27/2021 at 11:58 AM, Seigmoraig said:

What really grinds my gears is when you start a taskforce when below level 50. Taskforce is not advertised as being a rush or fast or whatever and somebody rushes to the end anyways without asking anyone's opinion and either just finishes it to group teleports the team there. 
A few weeks ago this happened on the last mission of ITF, not everybody was even in the door yet and the cut scene was already playing and he ATT'd us to the final boss without asking. I'm not even ashamed to say that we (RL friend who had lead to make the mission level 50) immediately kicked him out of the team and asked everyone left to fly back to the start so we could do the mission normally. 

So..here's where the disconnect is: "so we could do the mission normally."

So. the thing is - that's YOUR normal. It's not my normal. I tend to avoid ITF because I dislike all the screaming npcs. And the surgeons. Most annoying thing in this game is those damned surgeons. 
But, I've done that tf countless times. I can count on one hand the number of times we literally beat a path from the door to the AV. My god, it was sloooooow. But, hey, some of you like all that xp and such - that's great. But it's not "doing the mission normally" for all of the player base. It's killing through/kill most. That's a perfectly fine way to do this or any tf or mission. But it's not everyone's "normal". 
At level 50, most folks have already made their influence, so there's no need for xp, no need for drops, just the merits. May as well get it over with sooner so they can go on to do LRSF or MsLib, or Kahn or whatever floats their boat. 

Again - killing through is perfectly fine, but to suggest that's normal - it isn't. While I get that you didn't advertise as a speed run, a speed run is not what a lot of folks think it is. 

A speed run is when your team actually practices the tf, analyzes the type of damage that the npcs are most susceptible to and PLs the optimal AT/powersets for that specific task. 
As an example, on Ms. LibTF when you beat up the "security chief?" - if you don't reset when you don't get the key from the first "security chief?", you're not speeding it. 

Now, that's a lot different from just using ATT or incan to the AV on the map. What you're describing is fairly routine. The only way it's a kickable offense is if you've made it clear from the beginning that it's a kill most/through kind of task, and they broke your rules. And heck, even then, kicking is harsh. You could easily lay waste to the av and then clear the entire map, and allow that one fellow who was in a rush to leave, merits in hand. No harm, no foul. 

As I've said before - if it's your team, you're the leader, simply express your expectations at the beginning, prior to starting the tf. Then, if there are issues, you know you were clear and it's the other folks being the jerks. If you're not clear - then that's your shoe to wear. 

[Peacemoon]

On 9/25/2021 at 9:28 PM, QuiJon said:

I feel like the issue cuts both ways. I have been on teams, even on task forces, where we get a kill all mission. I know I can solo so in a big cave maps with branching directions if the main group seems to not be struggling I will go down the other path. Everything has to die anyway right. 

 

And I get some team leader complain. But what they really want is an audience. And if my fire tank can go off soloing because he wants to foot stomp his way through maps on his kheldian what he seems to be most upset at is that he doesnt feel as important if he isnt the top performer on the team.

Surely joining a team only to play solo is the definition of “But what they really want is an audience”. 
 

You don’t just want to solo, you want a whole team to watch you solo. 

[Sovera]

11 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

Surely joining a team only to play solo is the definition of “But what they really want is an audience”. 
 

You don’t just want to solo, you want a whole team to watch you solo. 

 

You guys keep on doing your thing where you imagine scenarios and project onto others. The reason why has been repeated ad nauseum at this point and yet we return to the petty 'they are doing this like those guys revving up bikes to wake up the neighborhood!'.

 

Eesh, calm down, there is no nefarious plot and there is childish vroom vroom.

 

- Any content that a single person can solo is not content hard enough that requires 8 people all clumped up together hitting the same targets.

- It's mathematical that if the team takes the left fork and the soloer takes the right fork, that the mission will end sooner.

- The reason why some people will take the right fork is that they know their build can take it, the know 7 people can take the left fork, they know the content they are doing is not hard enough that there is danger, they know they can shave several minutes off the objective, they know there will be no such gains if they stick with the team.

- The reason why someone who takes the right fork joins is not because they think the rest of the team is watching in awe and admiration (you can't see it, but I'm smiling in RL as I write this just because it's so adorable how many times it has been mentioned in this thread) but because soloing a TF takes much longer than doing it with a team. And because sometimes there is chatter. From kill all to kill the AVs a team will do it faster than a solo person.

 

Alright, it has been explained again. I'm (im)patiently waiting to see again in a few pages how the argument returns to the right forkers doing it for the acclaim and awe of the team.

 

o/

[Peacemoon]

9 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

- Any content that a single person can solo is not content hard enough that requires 8 people all clumped up together hitting the same targets.

- It's mathematical that if the team takes the left fork and the soloer takes the right fork, that the mission will end sooner.

Ah, maths. Actually you’re often wrong.

1 person going their own way and having their private battle with a room full of mobs does not always make it quicker. 
There are lots of examples of a group blasting through the whole map only to return to the Tanker/Scrapper still scratching away at his room of mobs wasting time solo, when he could have been with the team making the whole ride more efficient and slick.

 

Or the opposite, times when the group are having to slowly dredge through the mission because they’re missing that 1 person who could make it more quicker.

 

Also if you’re playing a support AT who’s job it is to make the mobs easier to kill, it’s a bit naff when done diehard soloer insists on not utilising your debuffs to speed up the mission.

 

So there’s many mathematical reasons why sticking as a group can make the whole run slicker, more efficient and faster.

 

Not to mention the whole other debate of feelings, how it impacts the fun of the group and their enjoyment, and whether they want to keep playing. 

[Sovera]

10 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

Ah, maths. Actually you’re often wrong.

1 person going their own way and having their private battle with a room full of mobs does not always make it quicker. 
There are lots of examples of a group blasting through the whole map only to return to the Tanker/Scrapper still scratching away at his room of mobs wasting time solo, when he could have been with the team making the whole ride more efficient and slick.

 

Or the opposite, times when the group are having to slowly dredge through the mission because they’re missing that 1 person who could make it more quicker.

 

Also if you’re playing a support AT who’s job it is to make the mobs easier to kill, it’s a bit naff when done diehard soloer insists on not utilising your debuffs to speed up the mission.

 

So there’s many mathematical reasons why sticking as a group can make the whole run slicker, more efficient and faster.

 

Not to mention the whole other debate of feelings, how it impacts the fun of the group and their enjoyment, and whether they want to keep playing. 

 

Alright, I had this talk in the first page. I'm talking of actual experience in the game, you know? Of having done it in my pre-tanker times, in watching it done in my current Tanker times. A usually-one-hour-and-a-half Synapse does not miraculously turn into a one hour and ten (or one hour on the dot) by accident. You are over selling buffs and debuffs against +0 or +1 enemies.

 

Of course that is moot if the conversation turns into both sides saying 'no, you're wrong'. Can't help there. Most I can do is repeat my offer from page 1: if we are both on Everlasting (if not I can transfer) I'll join on a level appropriate character and we put up a full team and do a TF where I stick to the team, then we do it a second time where I take the right fork and we compare times. Two times random people should make it a small sample but random enough.

 

As for the rest, people's feelings or their enjoyment at noticing the content they are clumping together to do being actually easy enough to be soloed I'll akin it to waking up in a Matrix pod: so it was that easy all along? Sure was.

 

Some content is not easy. Shepherds in First Ward? Booyah, better bring a very specific build if intending to right fork it. But Council? Clockwork? Sky Raiders? The content is not able to do more than slow a well built character.

[SmalltalkJava]

I take the other fork on occasion just because I got turned around and didn't notice that the group took the other fork.   I may be off on my own and in the "zone" for 5 minutes before I realize it.    I also may not have noticed the group lead's chat telling me so, or even that they dropped the group because the group split.    I just get in the zone sometimes or get turned around.

[ZemX]

4 minutes ago, SmalltalkJava said:

I take the other fork on occasion just because I got turned around and didn't notice that the group took the other fork.   I may be off on my own and in the "zone" for 5 minutes before I realize it.    I also may not have noticed the group lead's chat telling me so, or even that they dropped the group because the group split.    I just get in the zone sometimes or get turned around.

 

Hell, this sometimes happens to me even when I am tanking for a group.  I assume people are following me so I go left, down a hall, and dive in... then I notice everyone else went right.  I COULD drag this whole spawn right into the rear of the team, but that seems impolite.  So I stick around and finish it.  And that can take me awhile because I'm no fire brunker.  If the team looks like nobody is dying, I'll finish it then join them.

 

But it's usually more obvious that you've got a soloist on the team when they are always charging off past several other spawns so they can be sure the team isn't going to run into them while they solo.

 

And really, we're making this too complicated.  What I see both sides doing here is cherry-picking the scenarios that most illustrate their points of view whether it's steamrollers that vaporize whole spawns in mere seconds or the opposite, teams that are struggling or slowed because they are split.   The right answer is: It's only a problem... when it's a problem.   Yeah, if the team is rolling like it's on greased skids, one person running off to solo is no big deal.   Often, I find it IS a problem but that's also probably because I consciously choose to do more mid-level teaming than incarnate post-50 stuff.  It's just more fun for me.  And on these kinds of teams you usually have less power (not always, but usually) with a few sidekicks in there.  Plenty of no-IO builds.   One person running off on those teams CAN be an issue because they could have contributed to a smoother experience for the team had they stuck with it.

 

But neither of those cases is always present.  If all you do is run on OP teams, you are probably more in the "why not split up?" camp.  Whole reason I avoid those teams more often than not is because of that.  I find it dull when the team is so strong vs. the content that it has to split up to find any challenge.  Means you didn't choose a good enough challenge in my book.  But whatever floats your boat, I guess.

[Ukase]

And so - have we resolved anything in this 7 pages of nonsense? I see a few thumbs down to posts that I see as being helpful. And some thumbs up, as well. 

To me - the only "wrong" I see is when folks don't adhere to a leader's clear instructions. If the leader doesn't give those instructions, I don't see any harm in folks doing whatever they see fit to complete the mission. After all, each is there to play the game and enjoy themselves, not just the leader. But some seem to think the leader shouldn't have to state anything, and that their methodology and preferred way of mission completion is "normal" and only deviations from that norm need to be clarified. 

Can we not reach an agreement here? 
 

[Tahliah]

On 9/25/2021 at 4:00 PM, Ukase said:

I understand that some folks like a slower pace type of teaming, where some tank-ish character enters the fray, while buffers buff, debuffers debuff, and dps folks dish out damage. The thing is - that's fine, but that's YOUR way of playing, and it's not the only tool in our tool box. Almost all of us can do that - and have done that since issue 1. But since Issue 9 came about, and certainly when fine sets with bonuses like Superior Avalanche came to the game, a lot of players invested a lot of time and learning to become very "super". 

This is a weird thing that does seem to happen a lot, but I am with @Ukaseon this one.  If there is no team direction, it's a kill-all mish we've all done a thousand times, and we can actually solo or duo a full room, why not?  How is the team slowed by one or two players tackling half the map on their own in a kill-all yawn mish?  If two can do it, then surely the other six can manage, no?

 

On the other hand, I do see how this can be troubling on lowbie teams if all the toons are also lowbies (with none of the set bonuses, etc.) and just rush in and die and are therefore hindering, not helping, the team.

 

I think it might also be that a lot of us are used to running on teams that EXPECT you to pull your own weight and to splay out to clear maps as fast as possible (i.e. not as a single team but with able ATs branching out solo or in pairs to clear a map as fast as possible--very helpful on shard TFs, etc, but may not transfer well to regular game play). 

 

Again, though, and as Ukase notes, the team leader needs to set the terms.  I do tend to do the branch off thing on kill-all maps when I know I can handle whole rooms on my own or if I see another teammate heading off alone I'll run along for backup, but if a team leader says to all stay together, that's what I do.  It's his (or her) team, after all, and I'm just there to help out.

[Tahliah]

6 hours ago, ZemX said:

I COULD drag this whole spawn right into the rear of the team, but that seems impolite. 

Funniest thing I've read all day.  Literally laughed out loud!  Hee!

[QuiJon]

12 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

Or the opposite, times when the group are having to slowly dredge through the mission because they’re missing that 1 person who could make it more quicker.

Positrons are done now with 3-4 teammates, and as you get more powers the TFs just get easier. A team of 8 can miss having 1 person doing a different path.  And even if they dont finish their path or room completely by the time the team finishes there and the team has to come and help, they have normally still done a substantial amount of killing that the team doesnt have to help with when they catch up to them. 

[Snarky]

3 hours ago, Ukase said:

Can we not reach an agreement here? 
 

We can not.  We will not.  You can't make us!

[ZemX]

13 hours ago, Snarky said:

We can not.  We will not.  You can't make us!

 

I concur.

[Bionic_Flea]

36 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

I concur.

I disagree!

[PLVRIZR]

On 9/26/2021 at 5:42 AM, Sovera said:

I can do better than that though. If you play on Everlasting we can pick a random TF (Synapse takes too long but it's the best showcase because of the kill alls that can't be rushed through). If you don't then I can transfer to your server and we can run two of the same TF back to back and in one of them I will 'solo' the appropriate parts. Notice I don't say speedrun. Speedrunning is not my thing and not what is in question here.

 

I'm down to join.  MISSADVENTUR (see sig) is on Everlasting or I can bring multiple other toons/ATs on other servers.  I also prefer to tank...and all my builds are leveling/exemp ready.

[ZacKing]

I don't see this as a huge problem.  depends on a couple of things.  I know people who really do like teaming but do this because they're playing a TW or KM toon where sticking with the group means stuff dies before you can even get 1 attack off.  that can get boring.

[Industrious1]

The crux of the 'problem' lies more with the game itself than it does the individual players.

 

Most of the content is literally so easy at 50 that you can do a good chunk of it (with some notable exceptions) with 2-3 skilled players and not break a sweat.  The game did not really compensate for incarnate level power before the servers went down and it shows now that the game is back operational.  

 

Don't really see a solution to this either as the last time we got new content it was in the levelling range and not endgame.  At the rate of new content being introduced we are looking at 3-5 years of adding endgame missions that could possibly challenge those that seek such things.  

 

There are work-arounds for this such as adding your own personal rules to playing and setting disadvantages for the team but I find the vast majority of people are not interested in those options.  So we go 'round and 'round as we join the next ITF stompfest on poor Romulus.  

[ZacKing]

4 minutes ago, Industrious1 said:

The crux of the 'problem' lies more with the game itself than it does the individual players.

 

Most of the content is literally so easy at 50 that you can do a good chunk of it (with some notable exceptions) with 2-3 skilled players and not break a sweat.  The game did not really compensate for incarnate level power before the servers went down and it shows now that the game is back operational.  

 

Don't really see a solution to this either as the last time we got new content it was in the levelling range and not endgame.  At the rate of new content being introduced we are looking at 3-5 years of adding endgame missions that could possibly challenge those that seek such things.  

 

There are work-arounds for this such as adding your own personal rules to playing and setting disadvantages for the team but I find the vast majority of people are not interested in those options.  So we go 'round and 'round as we join the next ITF stompfest on poor Romulus.  

 

There's plenty of content in AE designed to be challenging for incarnate level teams.  People can run it all they want or create their own.  That's kinda what AE is for.  

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, PLVRIZR said:

 

I'm down to join.  MISSADVENTUR (see sig) is on Everlasting or I can bring multiple other toons/ATs on other servers.  I also prefer to tank...and all my builds are leveling/exemp ready.

Are you pro right fork or pro left fork? 😄