Windows 11 and gaming performance

[Bill Z Bubba]

I've skipped a lot of Windows OSs. Not seeing any reason to break that for 11.

[Shenanigunner]

On 10/10/2021 at 9:29 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

I've skipped a lot of Windows OSs. Not seeing any reason to break that for 11.

 

It depends on what you need to accomplish. If any old word processor, spreadsheet, browser etc. will do, it absolutely doesn't matter which version of Win, MacOS, Linux or whatever you run.

 

If you have to meet/mesh with professional worlds, you can't run no-name, off-brand, hacked-registration stuff.

 

IOW, I don't think there has been a release of Windows I didn't use, except maybe 8, because its horrors were quickly eclipsed by 10.

 

And funny, I could swear I heard Bill say "Windows 10 will be the last version of the OS, because we don't believe in micro-upgrades any more."

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Shenanigunner said:

And funny, I could swear I heard Bill say "Windows 10 will be the last version of the OS, because we don't believe in micro-upgrades any more."

 

Pretty sure he said a lot of silly things. For work, of course, I've had to support everything, but at home, I pretty much went from DOS to 98SE to XP to 7 to 10. Server 2000 and 2003 were in play for a while to learn stuff at one point.

[WanderingAries]

10 hours ago, Shenanigunner said:

And funny, I could swear I heard Bill say "Windows 10 will be the last version of the OS, because we don't believe in micro-upgrades any more."

 

He did and that was around the time that "Windows as a Service" started to get passed around. The idea was that instead of versions or even Service Packs (the bane of past editions), Win10 would simply continually be updated in smaller chunks as to have a limited impact on devices as it was progressively upgraded. And then whispers of Windows 11/12 started running around which caused lots of confusion because "but Bill said?!?!". So yeah, he said that But...

[Shenanigunner]

13 hours ago, WanderingAries said:

He did and that was around the time that "Windows as a Service" started to get passed around.

 

YaaS... I've worked in and around all the evolving "as a Service" industries in the last decade. It's a fabulous idea in that it keeps you up to date, in sync with everyone else and offloads a lot of tedious maintenance/update/compatibility issues to the provider. (I, for one, wouldn't go back to standalone Adobe tools; having the suite always up to date and in sync with the industries I use is a vast time- and frustration-saver.) (Not to mention the modern model for games like this.)

 

BuuT... convenient how the model means it's continual pay-to-play, even to keep one sh*tty presentation tool functioning.

 

Which is why I use Office 2016... only because v2010 wouldn't install any more. I will go back to a typewriter before I use Office 365 or even 2019 for my own desktop.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by Shenanigunner

[Ukase]

In line with this topic, I've been doing some research into upgrading my GPU, now that they're in stock to some degree. That led to realizing a newer GPU would require an newer PSU. Then, I'm at Best Buy, I tell the guy which MB I have, and he says the best GPU I can put on my MB is a 1080. And I'm working with a 1050 now.  (I'm considering a 3060)

Further research on Tom's Hardware site shows a list of a slew of CPUs on Windows 10.  Here is the link if you'd like to see where I got the quote below. 

So, while Win 11 may steal some performance with one hand, it may return it with the other hand. But, I'm no expert, and I could easily be misinterpreting what I'm reading. 

"We conducted these tests in Windows 10, which penalizes the 12th-Gen Intel scores. This is because Windows 10 doesn't target threads at the correct cores with the precision that we see in Windows 11. You can see the Windows 11 results in the album in the first album in the article."

Oh - and I'm not actually going to buy from Best Buy, I just go there to learn more from the geeks, usually, unless they make me a deal I can't refuse. 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Ukase said:

and he says the best GPU I can put on my MB is a 1080

 

Did he say why? Needing a better power supply, I get... but a board that can run a 1080 should be able to handle a 3080 just fine as far as I can tell. Oh wait... PCIe v3 vs v4. Should still work and be an upgrade but it won't be able to push the card as well as it should. Also, crap. My MB is also PCIe v3. Thanks for making me look. Guess it's whole new rig time. Edit: For me, I mean. And really... it's just new MB, proc, ram and 3080 that I'll need.

 

Did more digging... : "As of right now, performance improvements to be had when using the RTX 3080 on a PCIe 4.0 interface are very small at best, and in many cases are simply non-existent." Soooo... woot!

Edited June 23, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[WanderingAries]

2 hours ago, Ukase said:

Oh - and I'm not actually going to buy from Best Buy, I just go there to learn more from the geeks, usually, unless they make me a deal I can't refuse. 

 

 

Heh, I always find myself ahead of most these guys somehow. At least the ones in the front. Granted, anyone who actually reads up on hardware AND understands what it means should be able to give a real response.

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, Ukase said:

 I tell the guy which MB I have, and he says the best GPU I can put on my MB is a 1080.

 

And this is why you don't ask for tech advice from Best Buy unless you want something to laugh at.

 

(I still remember someone asking "So what's the difference between parity and non parity memory?" and being told "Parity means you have to put it in in pairs." They haven't gotten better in the decades since.)

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Did he say why? Needing a better power supply, I get... but a board that can run a 1080 should be able to handle a 3080 just fine as far as I can tell. Oh wait... PCIe v3 vs v4. Should still work and be an upgrade but it won't be able to push the card as well as it should. Also, crap. My MB is also PCIe v3. Thanks for making me look. Guess it's whole new rig time. Edit: For me, I mean. And really... it's just new MB, proc, ram and 3080 that I'll need.

 

Did more digging... : "As of right now, performance improvements to be had when using the RTX 3080 on a PCIe 4.0 interface are very small at best, and in many cases are simply non-existent." Soooo... woot!

Yeah, after my post, I kept digging, and have read that the performance improvement from pci3 to 4 is small. I was concerned about the card fitting in the slot more than anything else. The old cards have an entirely different pin configuration, and my concern was that the newer cards wouldn't fit. My MB is from 2014 or so. And, well, technology advances pretty damned fast. My i7-4790 may soon be the bottleneck in the system. 

I expect, if I find the right deal, I'll get a new mb anyway. And while I'm at it go from 16 to 32 ram. 

I have always had a great deal of fun learning about the hardware; in many ways, the folks who designed these parts have really put a lot of thought into it - like how a memory stick will only fit one way. I promise you, without that kind of design, I'd have probably burned through a couple dozen computers and maybe a house or two. 

In any event, I've still a lot more reading/researching to do. I may wait until Windows 10 goes the way of the dodo, then just buy a whole new system. Just depends on what I read, and what the price points are. 

[tidge]

Not technical. but Best Buy does have a generous return/refund policy for most of their inventory. I'm in the hunt for a low-cost TV set (online reviews don't cover much of what I want, and the smaller displays aren't always on the floor to play with) while I try to debug the flaky behavior of my older set... I've ended up returning the first TV (good picture, but other issues, mostly audio) and I'm now trying the second. (better audio, still working on picture calibration, different compromises on other items of importance).

[High_Beam]

I only update to a new OS when I absolutely have no other choice; as in a significant piece of software I need to use is incapable of running on the machine(s) I have.

[Golden Azrael]

Running Mac OS Bootcamp for Windows 10.

 

I'll avoid W11 for the foreseeable future.

 

CoH runs fine.  (Apart from 5 man+ teams, Rikti Raids.)

 

Azrael.

[arcane]

What in tarnation is Windows 😢

[Bill Z Bubba]

12 minutes ago, arcane said:

What in tarnation is Windows 😢

 

 

About 75% of the desktop market. But linux is creeping up to 2.5%!

[tidge]

So what you are telling us is that there is a 4.81% chance that @arcane is using Windows^TM?

[Hyperstrike]

18 hours ago, Ukase said:

In line with this topic, I've been doing some research into upgrading my GPU, now that they're in stock to some degree. That led to realizing a newer GPU would require an newer PSU. Then, I'm at Best Buy, I tell the guy which MB I have, and he says the best GPU I can put on my MB is a 1080. And I'm working with a 1050 now.  (I'm considering a 3060)

Further research on Tom's Hardware site shows a list of a slew of CPUs on Windows 10.  Here is the link if you'd like to see where I got the quote below. 

So, while Win 11 may steal some performance with one hand, it may return it with the other hand. But, I'm no expert, and I could easily be misinterpreting what I'm reading. 

"We conducted these tests in Windows 10, which penalizes the 12th-Gen Intel scores. This is because Windows 10 doesn't target threads at the correct cores with the precision that we see in Windows 11. You can see the Windows 11 results in the album in the first album in the article."

Oh - and I'm not actually going to buy from Best Buy, I just go there to learn more from the geeks, usually, unless they make me a deal I can't refuse. 

 

Basically the thread scheduler in Win11 is optimized to handle "Performance" and "Efficiency" cores differently.
So on Win10, you see performance fall-off.

HOWEVER, if you're running AMD's Ryzen platform (and I am), the thread scheduler in Win11 results in performance LOSS.

There's been some tweaking going on there (Win11 was primarily developed against Intel) to bring AMD performance back up.  I just don't know how far that's gotten.


As for GPU.  What's your hardware specs?  So long as you have a PSU that can handle it, there should be no reason you couldn't put a 3060 in something from the last couple generations of system.  As Bill said, this is likely a PCI 3.0 vs 4.0 thing.  You'll still see gains out of a higher spec card.  You simply won't be able to push the card as hard.

One recommendation I might  give is to over-buy your PSU at least moderately.

10K, 20K, 30K (and the upcoming 40K) cards are having higher power draw numbers.  Worse, their transient loads can be outrageous.  With spikes of 50-100% over their baselines.  So trying to dial in on card spec numbers could leave you with a system that might simply power down (like over-current protection) in the middle of a momentary power spike.

Explanation and some graphing:

 

Right now, about the only way to avoid these problems is to step up the spec of your PSU.



 

15 hours ago, Ukase said:

Yeah, after my post, I kept digging, and have read that the performance improvement from pci3 to 4 is small. I was concerned about the card fitting in the slot more than anything else. The old cards have an entirely different pin configuration, and my concern was that the newer cards wouldn't fit. My MB is from 2014 or so. And, well, technology advances pretty damned fast. My i7-4790 may soon be the bottleneck in the system. 

I expect, if I find the right deal, I'll get a new mb anyway. And while I'm at it go from 16 to 32 ram. 

I have always had a great deal of fun learning about the hardware; in many ways, the folks who designed these parts have really put a lot of thought into it - like how a memory stick will only fit one way. I promise you, without that kind of design, I'd have probably burned through a couple dozen computers and maybe a house or two. 

In any event, I've still a lot more reading/researching to do. I may wait until Windows 10 goes the way of the dodo, then just buy a whole new system. Just depends on what I read, and what the price points are. 

Note: If you're looking at a new board, you're essentially looking at a new system.

New CPU
New board
New memory  (4790 is DDR3, a new board will give you choices between DDR4 and DDR5, depending on what you get.)

And, likely you'll just want to grab a new case so you can build at your leisure and keep your original setup functional in the duration.

Recommendation for components for a minimally expensive AMD rig.
https://newegg.io/bc54b8d

 

Note: This setup is also initially planned to be able to run and game without a discrete GPU.  You can ALWAYS add one later.


 

2 hours ago, arcane said:

What in tarnation is Windows 😢

An evil virus that's infecting millions upon millions of computers worldwide.

[Bill Z Bubba]

20 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

One recommendation I might  give is to over-buy your PSU at least moderately.

 

Seconded. When my 750W died, I replaced it with a 1000W for an nvidia 1080 vid card and a board that dates back to 2013. WAAAY overkill, yes, but future proofs me for if I do bite the bullet and go full ram/mb/vid/proc replacement.

[Ukase]

38 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Right now, about the only way to avoid these problems is to step up the spec of your PSU.

Picked up Corsair 1000w yesterday. 

[arcane]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

So what you are telling us is that there is a 4.81% chance that @arcane is using Windows^TM?

I use one of them silver rectangles from some kinda fruit company

[tidge]

39 minutes ago, arcane said:

I use one of them silver rectangles from some kinda fruit company

?

[Ironblade]

2 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

10K, 20K, 30K (and the upcoming 40K) cards are having higher power draw numbers.  Worse, their transient loads can be outrageous.  With spikes of 50-100% over their baselines.  So trying to dial in on card spec numbers could leave you with a system that might simply power down (like over-current protection) in the middle of a momentary power spike.

Well, that's some serious BS.  NVidia needs to get their act together.  Their cards power draw can spike to around 1,000 watts and they say the power supply manufacturers are the problem?

[lemming]

On 10/1/2021 at 7:54 PM, DoctorDitko said:

Probably won't be noticeable for CoH, but disappointing to hear.

 

I'm planning on sticking to Windows 10 (Edu version, I swear to Microsoft I'm under 13, and using O&O utils to hobble what 's left).

 

But I'd be remiss in not mentioning that CoH runs very well under Linux. Dual boot is a good thing. You can even softlink your Linux install to most of the data files on a mounted Winders partition to save space. 

 

So far I have yet to see a compelling reason to switch to 11. But they had to pry 7 from my cold dead security-conscious hands.

Happily running CoH via Lutris/Wine on Linux.  This is on a fairly beefy 2016 laptop.  I'm in the midst of replacing it since it's showing it's age in some HW failures.  (USB ports, Bluetooth, wifi are all flaking out, and the usual battery having zero life)

 

One of my other laptops, a 2012 Dell used to have win7 and ran CoH ok.   I've since converted it to Linux and there is a slight performance drop, so that one is just going to be my travel one.  (For a ten year old laptop, it's in good shape)

Edited June 23, 2022 by lemming
wrong key hit

[Shenanigunner]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

I use one of them silver rectangles from some kinda fruit company

 

Apricot went out of business years ago. Time for an upgrade!

[Hyperstrike]

9 hours ago, arcane said:

I use one of them silver rectangles from some kinda fruit company

 

You have our condolences.