Focused Feedback: Enhancements

[Replacement]

I really should have mentioned this sooner, but I return with another pitchfork take:

 

Shouldn't Ice Mistral have at least 1 more piece with +slow?  I like pushing precedent, but a Slow set where only 40% of the pieces even involve a slow enhancement feels like just a bit too far out of bounds for me. 

 

I would think the obvious place for it would be replacing one of the elements of Enhancement D (the quad stat), but I don't suppose it's a consideration to add a ⅓ power slow enhancement to the proc piece?

Edited November 23, 2021 by Replacement

[Booper]

  On 11/23/2021 at 3:56 PM, Replacement said:

houldn't Ice Mistral have at least 1 more piece with +slow?  I like pushing precedent, but a Slow set where only 40% of the pieces even involve a slow enhancement feels like just a bit too far out of bounds for me

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The precedent was already pushed with Power Transfer which also is damage-centric and only contains 2 EndMod pieces in the set. There are other Slow Movement sets that will offer more slows at the cost of only 1-2 Damage pieces. This set offers a stark alternative by allowing 90+% enhancement to damage while still offering 53% enhancement to slow.

[Crasical]

What's the icon for the Ice Mistral set supposed to be? a frozen-over blue broken heart? An arm and clenched fist?

Edited November 23, 2021 by Crasical

[Hew]

  On 11/23/2021 at 7:33 PM, Crasical said:

What's the icon for the Ice Mistral set supposed to be? a frozen-over blue broken heart? An arm and clenched fist?

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Broken heart. You know, like with her and Scirocco

 

[Replacement]

  On 11/23/2021 at 5:07 PM, Booper said:

The precedent was already pushed with Power Transfer which also is damage-centric and only contains 2 EndMod pieces in the set. There are other Slow Movement sets that will offer more slows at the cost of only 1-2 Damage pieces. This set offers a stark alternative by allowing 90+% enhancement to damage while still offering 53% enhancement to slow.

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Good point! Though note: one of PT's mods is dedicated.

I wouldn't want that for Mistral, but it explains why that set hits somewhere around 66% EndMod.

 

I confess, I've never been a fan of the actual Enhancement setup of Power Transfer, because it has 3 pieces indistinguishable from a damage set, a straight endmod piece, and finally a solitary piece that pushes both "worlds."

 

I would like a bit more blend, but certainly not if the only way to achieve it is through a solo slow mod, or lowering +damage (along with the proc, kinda the point of the set).

 

In other words: I would still prefer a small slow boost accompanying the proc or replacing a quad stat, but not enough to feel disappointment when you say "about that... No." 😅

Edited November 23, 2021 by Replacement

[Hew]

  On 11/23/2021 at 8:20 PM, Replacement said:

I confess, I've never been a fan of the actual Enhancement setup of Power Transfer, because it has 3 pieces indistinguishable from a damage set, a straight endmod piece, and finally a solitary piece that pushes both "worlds."

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Fwiw, I use PT all over the place. Attacks, passive, you name it. pt endmod+heal chance sprinkled liberally nets you some solid bonus survival. a 3 or 4 piece comes with VERY strong recov, health, and end, when you stack a few of them together.

[ForeverLaxx]

I think the main problem regarding set bonus distribution and "attractive alternatives" that people don't seem to want to point out is that, from a power gaming perspective, there's no reason in-game to want anything other than Defense/Resist caps, piles of Recharge, and enough recovery to make it function. You can add all the "alternative build" slotting and set bonuses you want, but the game itself doesn't reward this kind of building and, in some cases, actively punishes you for it. In effect, some bonuses are purely for flavor that you'll almost never notice or appreciate.

 

That said, I don't necessarily think that makes these bonuses bad when viewed in isolation. They're just "bad" due to how the game at large functions and without changing the game itself, these bonuses won't be considered valuable. The problem then becomes one of powercreep vs perceived uselessness and it's not really a battle you can win no matter which direction you go. If you make the bonuses "appealing enough" to warrant consideration in final build crafting, you've most likely just powercrept the game. If you leave the bonuses "nice" but inconsequential to end builds, the perception that they're a "useless waste of dev time/resources" goes up and people just ignore the set outside of potential unique IOs.

 

It's not a great place to be in as a designer, though I'm on the side of "don't powercreep the game" and just let fun, flavorful, and "nice" bonuses exist for those who want to use them. Power Gamers will always use what's best, and if what's currently best is already trivializing much of the game, there's no need to contribute further to that problem. If some people want to pretend this means the effort on "pointless sets/bonuses" is wasted effort, then let them. Who knows -- maybe someone will try to create competitive leagues of not-capped players and these "useless" sets and bonuses suddenly find value in a twink market. Think the Level 19 Battleground bracket in WoW (which I know doesn't exist anymore thanks to level/stat squishing). With fewer slots and powers available at lower levels, decent bonuses in areas all characters have access to early become important.

[roleki]

OMG, Ice Mistral's Torment!  I have been lamenting the... unimaginative design of the Slow IOs since day 1, and here you've gone and fixed EVERYTHING in one shot!  This is awesome, no lie.  

 

Finally getting a Schedule A End/Slow enhancement!  That is fantastic, I'm going to craft maybe a billion of those things.  Would loved to have seen an Acc/Slow/End so the set could be two-pieced into non-damaging slow powers, but don't see how that could be accomplished in a 5-aspect set with a proc.   That said, it's a set with a proc AND an End/Slow, so there's your two pieces right there (in many cases). 

 

Right out the gate, this could (should?) be the mere mortal's go-to for Hot Feet, splitting the difference between Multi-Strike and Superior Avalanche in terms of End/Dam and set bonuses, but with a damage proc thrown in to boot.  

 

Next, going to go test-up my Ice/TA Controller with this thing... uh, any chance this set could be exempted from the Rule of 5?

[scottocamp]

  On 11/24/2021 at 3:46 AM, ForeverLaxx said:

I think the main problem regarding set bonus distribution and "attractive alternatives" that people don't seem to want to point out is that, from a power gaming perspective, there's no reason in-game to want anything other than Defense/Resist caps, piles of Recharge, and enough recovery to make it function. You can add all the "alternative build" slotting and set bonuses you want, but the game itself doesn't reward this kind of building and, in some cases, actively punishes you for it. In effect, some bonuses are purely for flavor that you'll almost never notice or appreciate.

 

That said, I don't necessarily think that makes these bonuses bad when viewed in isolation. They're just "bad" due to how the game at large functions and without changing the game itself, these bonuses won't be considered valuable. The problem then becomes one of powercreep vs perceived uselessness and it's not really a battle you can win no matter which direction you go. If you make the bonuses "appealing enough" to warrant consideration in final build crafting, you've most likely just powercrept the game. If you leave the bonuses "nice" but inconsequential to end builds, the perception that they're a "useless waste of dev time/resources" goes up and people just ignore the set outside of potential unique IOs.

 

It's not a great place to be in as a designer, though I'm on the side of "don't powercreep the game" and just let fun, flavorful, and "nice" bonuses exist for those who want to use them. Power Gamers will always use what's best, and if what's currently best is already trivializing much of the game, there's no need to contribute further to that problem. If some people want to pretend this means the effort on "pointless sets/bonuses" is wasted effort, then let them. Who knows -- maybe someone will try to create competitive leagues of not-capped players and these "useless" sets and bonuses suddenly find value in a twink market. Think the Level 19 Battleground bracket in WoW (which I know doesn't exist anymore thanks to level/stat squishing). With fewer slots and powers available at lower levels, decent bonuses in areas all characters have access to early become important.

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I agree with everything you are saying.  But I think an often over-looked factor is the ability to rather easily fill a build (every build) with nothing but purple, winter and PvP set bonuses.  Easy access to influence and merits and converters and such make it possible to have nothing but the most outstanding set bonuses.  That being the case - nothing is going to really move the power creep needle at this point unless a new uber-purple class of enhancements are added to the game.  (Which would be a terrible idea.)  Adding purple level travel set bonuses or purple level fear bonuses or purple level slow bonuses or whatever would not make a build that already has nothing but purple level set bonuses any better.  But it might actually encourage players to experiment with builds that did not necessarily focus on just defense, resistance, recharge and sufficient endurance.  Which I think is what Booper is trying to accomplish.  An attempt to make "speed" a relevant component of the game.  Which is cool and I honestly think a worthy effort.  But it just isn't going to happen unless there is an incentive to, for example, swap out a purple quality immobilize set with one of these new travel sets.  The incentive just isn't there at present.

[Sovera]

My own original point was not so much to add to the power creep but to add an alternative. A set that gives Kinetic Combat relative bonuses and that can be slotted but once (like Synapse's shock) is a nice alternative to slotting something useless like Brawl.

 

But I suppose it does count as power creep by making a travel power better where it would not before the set's introduction.

[KaizenSoze]

Blaster: Munitions Mastery: Cryo Freeze Ray does not take Ice Mistral pieces even though it's a does cold damage.

[Luminara]

  On 11/24/2021 at 12:21 PM, KaizenSoze said:

Blaster: Munitions Mastery: Cryo Freeze Ray does not take Ice Mistral pieces even though it's a does cold damage.

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It's a Slow set.  Cryo Freeze Ray doesn't Slow.

[KaizenSoze]

  On 11/24/2021 at 12:43 PM, Luminara said:

It's a Slow set.  Cryo Freeze Ray doesn't Slow.

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Yes, it was pointed to me. 😞

 

I wanted that cold proc!

[Peacemoon]

Any updates on the travel sets? I was hoping for some changes before they went live (feedback posted earlier).

[Hew]

  On 11/24/2021 at 3:46 AM, ForeverLaxx said:

there's no reason in-game to want anything other than Defense/Resist caps,

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This is no longer true in challenge mode content, where your defense cap'd whatever gets shredded like tissue paper because you went in thinking defense cap was all you needed. 

[Sovera]

  On 11/24/2021 at 2:21 PM, Hew said:

This is no longer true in challenge mode content, where your defense cap'd whatever gets shredded like tissue paper because you went in thinking defense cap was all you needed. 

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But tbh it is all that's needed. There are few sets who can easily push defense to exorbitant numbers.

 

So defense cap for 95% of the game and then buffers for challenge mode.

[aethereal]

  On 11/24/2021 at 2:21 PM, Hew said:

This is no longer true in challenge mode content, where your defense cap'd whatever gets shredded like tissue paper because you went in thinking defense cap was all you needed. 

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I'm dubious that movement speed, max endurance, range, and slow resist are the keys to unlocking challenge mode.  If anything, it feels like resist is even more important, and if you don't want to absolutely require a buff set that can give everyone +50% defense, then getting your own way to 45% resist so that Maneuvers + whatever can take you the rest of the way to 80% or so is even more important.

[Booper]

  On 11/24/2021 at 2:09 PM, Peacemoon said:

Any updates on the travel sets? I was hoping for some changes before they went live (feedback posted earlier).

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Check the recommended post. It's linked to the RC1 changes.

[tidge]

  On 11/24/2021 at 5:34 AM, scottocamp said:

 

I agree with everything you are saying.  But I think an often over-looked factor is the ability to rather easily fill a build (every build) with nothing but purple, winter and PvP set bonuses. 

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We can haz Slow / Threat / Fear enhancement sets of PvP / Purple variety?

 

...So that we can boost them and have them work at all levels? For me, often it isn't even really the set bonuses, it's more like trying to stretch the most out of only a few slots. Fear can benefit from HO, and Slow is getting some love, but Threat/Taunt is the one that really stands out to me as deserving of a Purple (or PVP) treatment:

1.  The non-Epic classes defined by Taunt (as a power), as well as those that get Confront, all can take that power early enough that the level 20+ sets will cut out at the earliest levels. This may seem insignificant, but it is an annoying feature.
2. Aside from maybe hoping for a Perfect Zinger %proc, does anyone actually slot pieces from Taunt sets in an aura?
3. I find it weird that Mocking Beratement (the uncommon set) is my default choice for multi-slots in Taunt!
4. The enhancement types for Taunt are almost identical... The Presence pool's Provoke could use more (or boostable) Accuracy.

The 4th point above is what prompted this post, as folks are discussing the desire for different aspects of powers to be enhance-able. I don't play enough with many buff/debuff powers (with sets that also have the elements of 'sameness') , but those seem to be well served by Hami-Os when I want to play with fewer slots.

[Starfox]

Not read the entire thread.

 

Ice Mistral's Torment is a slow set that focuses on damage - just like the sets we already had, but with more damage. Could we please, pretty please have a slow set that focuses on SLOW and NO DAMAGE!

 

The best slow power in the game, like Tar Patch, Caltrops, and Shiver, either do no damage or the damage is of no consequence.

[WindDemon21]

Without reading through all 7 pages to find it lol, is there any notice about how it's currently not letting me slot thrust in sprint?

[WindDemon21]

  On 11/27/2021 at 12:50 AM, Starfox said:

Not read the entire thread.

 

Ice Mistral's Torment is a slow set that focuses on damage - just like the sets we already had, but with more damage. Could we please, pretty please have a slow set that focuses on SLOW and NO DAMAGE!

 

The best slow power in the game, like Tar Patch, Caltrops, and Shiver, either do no damage or the damage is of no consequence.

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YES PLEASE. Been saying this forever, the actual slow sets SUCK for actual slow powers, not even that good for damaging slow powers either. instead of new sets they really should just revamp all the old sets. end/slow acc/end and acc/slow/rech, acc/slow, slow, acc/rech should be good for a 6 piece or something like that.

[Glacier Peak]

  On 11/29/2021 at 1:37 AM, WindDemon21 said:

Without reading through all 7 pages to find it lol, is there any notice about how it's currently not letting me slot thrust in sprint?

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So Sprint only accepts [Running & Sprints] or [Leaping & Sprints] IO sets, Running Speed enhancement TOs, DOs, SOs, Basic IOs, etc. Thrust is a Running-only IO set, which Sprint does not accept. 

 

 

[WindDemon21]

  On 11/29/2021 at 1:47 AM, Glacier Peak said:

So Sprint only accepts [Running & Sprints] or [Leaping & Sprints] IO sets, Running Speed enhancement TOs, DOs, SOs, Basic IOs, etc. Thrust is a Running-only IO set, which Sprint does not accept. 

 

 

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Oh SUPER weird distinction but thanks. Thought it was just "running or springs" which would make more sense not having a 2ndary category. Very sad day though was hoping for some bonus run/jump in my builds.

[Glacier Peak]

  On 11/29/2021 at 1:52 AM, WindDemon21 said:

Oh SUPER weird distinction but thanks. Thought it was just "running or springs" which would make more sense not having a 2ndary category. Very sad day though was hoping for some bonus run/jump in my builds.

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Yeah, it was done to open up IO set design/bonuses for travel powers.