Focused Feedback: Stone Melee - Changes and Proliferation

[jojogladco]

2 minutes ago, jojogladco said:

Yeah COD is 3-5 builds behind for BETA was my thought. I checked closed beta patch notes earlier today and didn't find anything. But and it's a big BUT, I'm on day 25 of dealing with COVID and somedays like today my brain is just mush. So it's possible I missed it. I'll double check again. I didn't have any luck searching Beta Discord for the terms range, radius, or arc either, but I def glossed over just searching Fault so I'll check there also. Thanks Bopper. 

Should be fixed now. Found the note from November 1st.  

Stone Melee > Fixed an error where the range, arc and damage of Fault for Brutes and Scrappers was not matching the the Tanker version.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

 

While I have your attention, Bopper, has there been any internal talk of letting Fault work with Hover? Just asking more pointedly to know if it's a hard no and no point in requesting it, or talk about it is ongoing with a maybe in the horizon.

I have no clue.

[ninja surprise]

I confirmed on Live that Fault and Hurl Boulder don't work if you're Hovering, so no change there.

 

I made a Stone/Bio Scrapper and love it so much I might stay on Test until it hits Live. So much fun! 

 

I'd prefer Seismic Smash did straight double damage on Crit instead of the increased Hold. I'd rather just defeat something than hold it and hit it again.

But I'm still a happy camper. I went through all my half-built Stoners on live and stripped 'em bare so I'm ready for the issue to make my newest alt.

[Parabola]

6 hours ago, Bopper said:

They don't share the same accuracy modifier. It's basically like casting two powers at once. The stun/kb power has the 0.8x modifier (like it always had) and the damage cone has a 1.0x modifier.

 

As for procs, that should be correct. Only the stun/kb power will accept the disorient, kb and taunt sets (and their procs). While the damage cone accepts TAoE, ATOs, and Universal Damage sets and their procs.

 

They also will proc differently. The stun/kb will use 20s cooldown, and is a spherical AoE (15'?). The damage will use a 6s cooldown and has the area factor of a cone with 20' radius and 55 degree. 

 

I am not sure if the main target gets proc'd like a ST attack. If so, that's a bug and would have to be fixed.

Thanks @Bopper

 

Different accuracies? I'm a bit concerned that this power (these powers would be more accurate) is just too complicated. The in game power information gives no real idea what is actually going on. Mids will also struggle to represent it/them accurately.

 

Can I confirm that the cone part always extends 20' (depending on range bonuses) regardless of how close the target is?

 

I've started testing the proc performance so will come back with any interesting findings. Those area factor numbers will be very useful, thank you. Deciphering the logs for this with multiple targets is a nightmare though!

[Bopper]

8 minutes ago, Parabola said:

Can I confirm that the cone part always extends 20' (depending on range bonuses) regardless of how close the target is?

Yes, it works like a normal cone. It will hit behind the target if the target is closer to you.

 

9 minutes ago, Parabola said:

Mids will also struggle to represent it/them accurately.

It won't struggle as much as you think. After we implemented the more robust conditionals system last year, it's fairly easy to make a slider and have it flip/flop between showing the Stun AoE and the Damage Cone.

 

11 minutes ago, Parabola said:

Deciphering the logs for this with multiple targets is a nightmare though!

I've been there. I usually test against a pylon to ensure it's Single Target. 

[Croax]

Hi all,

 

I had time to make a stone/EA stalker and would like to share my experience.

The set delivers a good feeling and the sound and animations are nice. The uppercut Assassin Strike looks really cool. I used the 'no weapons' lava animations and was happy with the feel and gameplay the set delivers. 

 

I tried a 'normal' build where i simply used one of my templates and have 0-2 damage procs on the attacks.

I then tried a proc heavy build with 3 damage procs. I finally landed on a build with some Force Feedback procs and 0-1 damage proc. 

 

The normal build had a problem with the attack chain and felt cluncky. I was at perma hasten levels of recharge but needed some more. The proc heavy build was a nightmare until i put FF procs into it and could get a better flow of attacks. After comparing the damage to the normal build, i had to utilise FF to get better results because i was missing a lot of set bonuses.

I think the last sentences sound very confusing. That is why i will go on point by point now.

 

Single Target Attacks

As i suspected the attack chain is hard to get going. There are several options here and i had a hard time figuring out a proper one. Remember that the Stalker ATO is currently not working so the extra build ups are missing.

 

Stone Mallet -> Hurl Boulder -> Assassin Smash -> Seismic Mallet

The idea was 3 Attacks then AS followed allways by the heavy hitter. Turns out Hurl Boulder is bad. It takes forever to activate. The attack chain was rendered useless.

 

Stone Mallet -> Zapp -> Assassin Smash -> Seismic Mallet

This felt smooth was good enough without gaps but will be not availlable until late in the game.

 

Stone Mallet -> Stone Fist -> Assassin Smash -> Seismic Mallet

Again Ok but not overwhelming. At least it is available early on.

 

Stone Mallet -> Assassin Smash -> Seismic Mallet 

Now we are getting there, but Seismic Mallet has a big cooldown so i was wondering what i can do. The answer was FF procs! I used one in Stone Mallet and one in Seismic Mallet. Now the gap was very small. I think when the Build Up procs are working this could be the best attack chain without a snipe.

 

With my Ice Melee Stalker i used either a snipe or Frost to smoothen the attack chain. But unfortunately Fault is no contender here. It was very hard to hit multiple enemys with Fault. The Damage was underwhelming and sometimes i could only hit one

enemy.

Tremor was delivering very good results, and can be described as reasonable. But i still had a hard time in the ITF. Did the romans get some buffs? I was missing a lot of attacks and was thinking the Accuracy of my powers is too low.

 

Overall the damge was not very good. I compared the powers with similar sets like Ice Melee and was disappointed. The Attacks of Stone Melee deal 5-8% more Damage but have only Smashing Damage. Ice Melee is dealing a lot of cold damage. In overall gameplay Stone Melee will underperform. There is no combo point, additional resource, stance or something else. This set needs at least 10-15% more damage to be competitive. Also Fault and Hurl Boulder need to be changed or reworked. Maybe Tombstone from the Seismic Blast could replace Hurl Boulder? Changing the Animation time is also a option. Dominators have a hurl boulder which was not that bad. And Fault shoul be easier to use.

 

Well that was a lot. I hope this helps you.

[aethereal]

Romans now buff each other's defense (as of the patch on live in October), which probably explains your missing them in your testing.

[ninja surprise]

14 hours ago, Croax said:

The idea was 3 Attacks then AS followed allways by the heavy hitter. Turns out Hurl Boulder is bad. It takes forever to activate. The attack chain was rendered useless.

 

@Bopper Is it feasable to swap out Hurl Boulder with a faster-animating attack from the new Stone Blast set?

 

Maybe Meteor? 😮

Edited November 18, 2021 by ninja surprise

[Wavicle]

Hurl Boulder is a ranged attack in a melee set. It’s not supposed to be part of your melee attack chain. Maybe try not skipping your first attack?

[Shred Monkey]

No feedback to the changes, but to the set in general.  I've never liked the mallet graphics.  I'd like alternate animations for these to use normal stone covered fists instead of summoned hammers.  These have stopped me from using stone melee for years.  Thanks.  Keep up the good work.

 

[Wavicle]

36 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

No feedback to the changes, but to the set in general.  I've never liked the mallet graphics.  I'd like alternate animations for these to use normal stone covered fists instead of summoned hammers.  These have stopped me from using stone melee for years.  Thanks.  Keep up the good work.

 

there are no weapon versions included

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, ninja surprise said:

 

@Bopper Is it feasable to swap out Hurl Boulder with a faster-animating attack from the new Stone Blast set?

 

Maybe Meteor? 😮

Can Hurl Boulder be swapped out for a blaster nuke? Probably not. 

[Glacier Peak]

3 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Can Hurl Boulder be swapped out for a blaster nuke? Probably not. 

Hurl Meteor

[Aracknight]

[Crimsanotic]

22 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Hurl Boulder is a ranged attack in a melee set. It’s not supposed to be part of your melee attack chain. Maybe try not skipping your first attack?

What kind of sense does this make? Fast snipes for Scrappers/Stalkers. Impale in Spines, Focus in Claws. Brutes and Tanks get access to Gloom and Mu Lightning for fast, heavy hitting ranged damage.

I don't think Hurl Boulder is terrible, but it's not amazing. It's just kind of ok. But saying it should be subpar simply because it's a ranged attack feels arbitrary for no real reason. Especially since, as a melee character, you'll be using it in melee range 99% of the time anyway.

[Wavicle]

6 minutes ago, Crimsanotic said:

What kind of sense does this make? Fast snipes for Scrappers/Stalkers. Impale in Spines, Focus in Claws. Brutes and Tanks get access to Gloom and Mu Lightning for fast, heavy hitting ranged damage.

I don't think Hurl Boulder is terrible, but it's not amazing. It's just kind of ok. But saying it should be subpar simply because it's a ranged attack feels arbitrary for no real reason. Especially since, as a melee character, you'll be using it in melee range 99% of the time anyway.

Of the attacks you mentioned only Focus is good dps and available in the primary or secondary. 

[Crimsanotic]

Also, I second Croax's opinions on Fault. I really wanted to like it, but the long recharge and mediocre damage leaves a lot to be desired. I don't find the line attack part of it to be too awkward to use, though I think it's the only power in this game that really works like that, so I wouldn't expect a lot of people to be used to it.

I also think I'd prefer if Tremor did more damage but had a longer recharge time and cost more end. Like Mass Levitate or Fire Sword Circle. Especially since it's the final power on every AT except one.

[Super Atom]

10 minutes ago, Crimsanotic said:

Also, I second Croax's opinions on Fault. I really wanted to like it, but the long recharge and mediocre damage leaves a lot to be desired. I don't find the line attack part of it to be too awkward to use, though I think it's the only power in this game that really works like that, so I wouldn't expect a lot of people to be used to it.

I also think I'd prefer if Tremor did more damage but had a longer recharge time and cost more end. Like Mass Levitate or Fire Sword Circle. Especially since it's the final power on every AT except one.

 

Gonna have to agree, Tremor still feels bad especially when the set's big ST can't full crit in favor of more holding power which TBH horrible trade.

[Wavicle]

56 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Of the attacks you mentioned only Focus is good dps and available in the primary or secondary. 

 

And, I should add, Focus is in a set that doesn't get Build Up, except for Stalkers. AFAIK no Melee set with Build Up includes a ranged attack with DPS comparable to its melee attacks.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Wavicle

[Super Atom]

Just now, Wavicle said:

 

And, I should add, Focus is in a set that doesn't get Build Up. AFAIK no Melee set with Build Up includes a ranged attack with DPS comparable to its melee attacks.

 

Yes but even the others you said were bad and the epics you dismissed because they're epics, doesn't disprove  "It's ranged so it has to be bad" to be a bad take. Even with the no build up argument, So i'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. Hurl doesn't need to be a skip-able bad power just because it's ranged on a melee set, It's terrible logic.

[Crimsanotic]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

 

And, I should add, Focus is in a set that doesn't get Build Up. AFAIK no Melee set with Build Up includes a ranged attack with DPS comparable to its melee attacks.

True. Though some of the ranged attacks in the epic pools are pretty good. But some of them are also terribad. So the range of the attacks having anything to do with their damage mostly seems arbitrary to me. For the record, I don't really have an issue with Hurl Boulder. Like I said, it's ok.

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, Super Atom said:

 

Yes but even the others you said were bad and the epics you dismissed because they're epics, doesn't disprove  "It's ranged so it has to be bad" to be a bad take. Even with the no build up argument, So i'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. Hurl doesn't need to be a skip-able bad power just because it's ranged on a melee set, It's terrible logic.

 

Agreed.  Not to mention they tend to be some of the fun powers to use in a set.

 

Hurl Boulder.  Impale.  Focused Burst.  Of those, only Impale is good for it's set, even if it's not saying much for the set with it's ST 😛

[Wavicle]

Just now, BrandX said:

Hurl Boulder.  Impale.  Focused Burst.  Of those, only Impale is good for it's set, even if it's not saying much for the set with it's ST

all three are perfect examples of what I was saying, that typically ranged attacks in melee sets are not very good

[Super Atom]

10 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Agreed.  Not to mention they tend to be some of the fun powers to use in a set.

 

Hurl Boulder.  Impale.  Focused Burst.  Of those, only Impale is good for it's set, even if it's not saying much for the set with it's ST 😛

 

It's exactly what disproves the logic, especially "not using in melee" If you don't use attacks just because you're not at an arbitrary distance you're literally playing wrong. Blasters don't just suddenly jump away after using melee to use range. Point blank blaze 😛

 

A power doesn't need to be ranged Seismic Smash, but it doesn't need to be bad -just- because of something completely arbitrary like "It's ranged". Focus alone, if you don't use it in your melee attack chain you're doing it wrong.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Super Atom

[BrandX]

6 hours ago, Wavicle said:

all three are perfect examples of what I was saying, that typically ranged attacks in melee sets are not very good

 

Well, for Spines, you use Spine in melee and it's part of it's ST rotation.  Focus for Claws.