Thoughts on the Sentinel (feedback/theorycrafting ahoy)

[Wavicle]

They don’t do enough for the team overall, yes.

 

Squishy ATs all either have powerful buffs (defender, corruptor, mastermind), strong CC (controller, dominator), or insane damage (blaster). Armored ATs either have high damage (scrapper, stalker), AoE taunt (tanker, brute, kheldians), or decent damage and buffs (arachnos). This is because being tough is not in and of itself a contribution to the team.

[MHertz]

I decided to use the same calculations to examine a full team: 1 of each Blaster, Controller, Defender, Scrapper, Tanker, and Sentinel.

 

Blaster takes 11% of team aggro

Controller takes 5.6%
Defender takes 5.6%
Scrapper takes 34.7%
Tanker takes 32.9% (remember, Taunt is not accounted for here, just damage and threat)
Sentinel takes 9.8%
 

This is the problem I was talking about earlier. If these figures are correct, Sentinels have armor that is being under-leveraged by the game mechanics compared to other ATs with similar armor. They could take at least 3x, possibly 4x as much heat as they do. They need a way to draw at least a little more aggro, and in a productive way.

Edited December 21, 2021 by MHertz

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, MHertz said:

Edit: I could not find a figure for Sentinel AT Threat, so I am going with 1.

 

Sentinel base Threat is 2.5.  https://cod.uberguy.net/html/archetype-data.html?at=sentinel

[MHertz]

That is a more reasonable figure.

 

If that is the case, then on that 6-person team, the Sentinel would be taking 21.3% of team aggro.

 

I still find it odd. I don’t feel like the Sentinels I play are getting that much of a workout, defensively. There are probably factors (other than debuffs and taunts) that I’m missing — like how quickly each AT can generate threat and among how many separate targets. If Blasters and Controllers have better AOE capability, that might make a difference.

 

Time to get some actual data and then refit the model.

Edited December 21, 2021 by MHertz

[aethereal]

If Sents do have their AT threat modifer set to 1, like squishies, then they shouldn't -- it should be at least as high as Stalkers (2).  All armored classes maybe except Sents have at least 2, and Sents should too.  (EDIT:  Thanks Luminara!)

 

But these calculations are not, I think, particularly valuable -- they abstract away almost everything of note.  The main reason that Tankers keep aggro isn't their AT threat modifier, it's Gauntlet + Taunt Aura + Taunt.  Defenders and Controllers generate high threat because debuff and mez generate lots of threat, out of proportion to damage.

 

And using the Sentinel's relatively high damage scalar as an estimate of their damage isn't very valuable -- they absolutely do not do 95% of the damage of Stalkers, for example.  Threat is generated from actual damage, of which damage scalar is only one part.

 

If a Blaster and a Sent duo and they both initiate against a large spawn by using an AoE, the threat modifier of the Sentinel isn't going to be relevant because the Sent will only damage somewhere in the 1/3-2/3rds of the mob due to their target caps -- even if they do more damage than the blaster, the blaster will damage everyone in the mob and will get substantial aggro as a result of that.

Edited December 21, 2021 by aethereal

[Gobbledigook]

I presume if they are hitting less targets and at a lower damage then they won't draw as much aggro. Scrappers are in the thick of it with possible taunt auras and they have much higher damage. Blasters/defenders etc hit more targets.

[Luminara]

Food for thought:

Back in the day, shortly after ED was implemented, I began leveling a Kin/Elec defender with no ranged attacks beyond the T1.  I used pool melee attacks, and at level 41 and onward, Thunderstrike from the Elec APP.  And I took Provoke, because I was experimenting with the Presence pool (mez was a constant source of grief when i played this character, and i'd hoped having a PBAoE Fear and a single-target Fear to stack with it, on lieutenants and bosses, would alleviate the problem (it didn't)).  On a TF with my SG, I decided that I was going to tank the AV.  The tanker Taunted.  I Provoked.  The tanker Taunted again.  I Provoked again.  This continued for a couple of minutes, and I repeatedly peeled the AV off of the tanker, until the tanker finally gave up and allowed me to tank the AV.

 

And I damn well held that AV's attention.  Even when I was briefly mezzed multiple times, I had so much aggro on that AV that it never turned away.

 

If a defender can do that, with nothing but Provoke and a 1.0 Threat scalar, and absolute shit damage output (defender melee damage scalar is only 0.55.  and this one had no Damage enhancements slotted, it was entirely reliant on Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift), there's no reason a sentinel can't do the same.  But we aren't dipping into the Presence pool with our sentinels, and we don't have Gauntlet, we don't even have a PBAoE damage toggle in every primary or secondary.  Our aggro is, essentially, only the damage we deal... and even with a higher Threat scalar, our target caps are lower, as @Gobbledegook notes, and our ranges are lower, so we can only hold aggro on two thirds of a max-sized spawn, or as little as a third, even if we're trying.

 

The target caps and the lack of native aggro generation are the critical failures which will prevent sentinels from functioning well as off-tanks, much less primary tanks, in any team consisting of more than 2-3 players.  On larger teams, the best we can manage is some of a spawn, and we'd need Provoke to ensure we retained aggro.  So if the archetype is expected to tank, it needs higher target caps for aggro (only for aggro), and it needs a native Threat generation solution like Gauntlet.  Without those two adjustments, it'll never fill a role in tanking.

 

That's not to say that a sentinel can't tank.  As evidenced by my anecdote, any archetype can tank, if the player is determined and the power sets are complementary (Kinetics is especially well-suited for this, since Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift apply -Damage, and Transfusion is critter-targeted).  But very few players are going to take their sentinels as far down that crazy road as I took my defender.  It's a lot of damn work.  A lot of damn work.  And not much fun beyond doing it just to see how far one can bend the rules before they start making that annoying whining sound.

 

I think the better direction is to improve the archetype in other ways.  The archetype just isn't well suited to tanking with low target caps and no built-in aggro generation.

[Gobbledigook]

Hard to say/remember what was going on back then with taunts/threat, the tanker itself etc. Taunting one target is fairly easy though. It would not happen nowadays. IF you were surviving the AV then i guess it didn't really matter who had it's aggro as it was toast anyway.

 

I don't think having them as a ranged taunter that could hover over the mobs heads holding aggro, out of range whilst still dpsing is such a good idea or inside a Force bubble attacking and taunting lol.

 

Yes i agree they aren't best suited to tanking. There is more to Tanking than just having a few armour toggles.

 

I think the Sentinel should either be more in the thick of it, either by reduced range, 20' or so or a mechanic that rewards them for being in the thick of it. They have the armour and they need to put it to the test more in some ingenious way. Possibly more like a scrapper but with different style of attack (ranged attacks) for nothing more than preference.

 

But i am sure most will agree that having high damage and high survival whilst at range is a no go.

[PeregrineFalcon]

If I were working on Sentinels today I think I'd do something like this.

1. As someone earlier in the thread suggested, give them Dominator Assault sets. This way they have a combination of ranged and melee attacks.
2. Increase their range and damage modifier to equal Blasters (and Scrappers). They'll still do less damage because they won't have defiance.
3. Leave their cone and AoE caps the same. This way Blasters will still be the king of ranged AoEs.
4. Change their inherent from Opportunity to Guardian. This would be a toggle that can be placed on any friendly that directs 50% of incoming damage, and all mez effects, to the Sentinel. Sort of like a stronger version of Spirit Ward from the Sorcery power pool. This would not only give them a definite role on the team, it also matches their name. To encourage people to use this power the Sentinel could also get a damage bonus of their own while the toggle is active.
5. Alternatively, the inherent could be reworked to be like Defenders' inherent, Vigilance. Except that it would give a damage bonus for less teammates (or while solo) and a range (and/or endurance) bonus while teamed.

[Lazarillo]

I don't know if this is kind of a tangent or not, but I was running my Energy/Bio Sentinel the other day (the only really one I've really leveled) and one thing kinda notable hit me:

 

Tankers used to have an inherent that would automatically put a small resist debuff on an enemy when they used their t1 ability.  This was deemed generally kind of poor and Tankers ended up with buffed damage all around instead.  The Sentinel inherent is that same debuff...but with extra steps to activate it.  That probably says right that all about a big problem Sentinels are gonna have on top of everything else.

[Glacier Peak]

Ranged semi-Scrappers. That's my take on the Archetype. Not the same level of damage mitigation, not the same damage output. Sentinel inherent power is not as easy/convenient as a Scrapper's either.

 

Even with IOs and set bonuses, I don't see Sentinels reaching that comparison fully. The absorption shields particularly as well make the comparison unequal.

 

My question is, for the team who designed it back in the secret server days, what was its design philosophy?

[Teirusu]

Having thought about it for a while and played my Sentinels quite a bit, I do agree that they are basically a 'ranged Scrapper', as has been pointed out.  We also do have quite a few ranged buffing/debuffing/control ATs but, the only ranged DPS AT we have are Blasters.  So, keeping them as mostly a DPS focused AT, as they currently are, I feel is the best.

As it's been pointed out, they really can't leverage their armor secondary as much as the other armored ATs.

So, I think a cool mechanic might be to give them a PBAOE inherent power that's always on.  Give it about 15-20 feet radius?  The only purpose of this power is to tag all enemies within range of the Sentinel with some kind of mode flag.  If the Sentinel then hits them with a damage power, it does bonus damage.  So, basically, you'd do extra damage to enemies within 20 feet of you.  This follows the standard risk verse reward trade-off and would allow Sentinels to better leverage their armor to their advantage automatically.  Dive into melee range to do more damage like a melee AT.  Pull out of melee range and do less damage, basically what they do today.  This could easily fall under being called 'opportunity' as it can just be RP as you, being much closer to the enemies, are able to more easily see their weaknesses and exploit them.

 

There could even be multiple levels of this damage buff.  For example:

0-10 feet:  Lots of bonus damage

11-20 feet:  Moderate bonus damage

21-30 feet:  Minor bonus damage

 

Another thought I had;  Give them unique Aim powers that last 20 seconds.  This would lean them more towards what Blasters have with both Aim and Build-up.  It wouldn't be a huge damage buff but would make them particularly good at blasting through toHit debuffs and defense buffs.  Sometimes that 10 second window isn't long enough and would be a great unique ability for them.

[Aurora_Girl]

On 12/22/2021 at 4:20 PM, Glacier Peak said:

My question is, for the team who designed it back in the secret server days, what was its design philosophy?

 

I've played one sentinel, to 35. My take on this particular question is: ranged solo with Mez protection. That's it. Far fewer players; just like a lot of HC's changes, were implemented for a player base of just the tiniest handful. Folks wanted to pew pew by themselves and not have to deal with Mez. 

 

That's it. Sentinels were to pew pew while solo and survive. My sent couldn't generate enough aggro on a +0 ITF to die and it was frustrating as all hell. Soloing on low level but higher mob size took too long (and I couldn't die), and the same with high level but smaller mob size. 

 

Raise the DMG scale on all attack types (not target cap), give opportunity a scaling -res debuff on all attacks, and switch the blasts for Assault sets, and I think you have a quick and clean solution. The inherent provides value solo or teaming, and the player feels like they're contributing in a meaningful way. 

[aethereal]

People have to be realistic that there's never been a change as drastic as switching the entire type of every primary for an AT and there never will be.  Swap the sentinels to assault sets will never happen.  There aren't even assault set equivalents for several sentinel primaries (like archery, dual pistols, or beam rifle).

Edited December 25, 2021 by aethereal

[Glacier Peak]

44 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:

 

I've played one sentinel, to 35. My take on this particular question is: ranged solo with Mez protection. That's it. Far fewer players; just like a lot of HC's changes, were implemented for a player base of just the tiniest handful. Folks wanted to pew pew by themselves and not have to deal with Mez. 

 

That's it. Sentinels were to pew pew while solo and survive. My sent couldn't generate enough aggro on a +0 ITF to die and it was frustrating as all hell. Soloing on low level but higher mob size took too long (and I couldn't die), and the same with high level but smaller mob size. 

 

Raise the DMG scale on all attack types (not target cap), give opportunity a scaling -res debuff on all attacks, and switch the blasts for Assault sets, and I think you have a quick and clean solution. The inherent provides value solo or teaming, and the player feels like they're contributing in a meaningful way. 

Hey that's a start! So pew pew with mez protection was the intent, but slogging damage output and damage mitigation that outperforms threat level was the outcome. 

[UltraAlt]

On 12/13/2021 at 9:36 AM, Nerva said:

Sentinel lacks something that most other ATs have, and that, namely, is their role in a party.

 

Er, what?

 

Thoughts on the Sentinel

Blasters are this ::

 

 

Sentinels are this ::

 

 

Blasters are this ::

 

 

Sentinels are this ::

 

 

I like all the Archetypes.

I don't find any problem with a Sentinel. 

I don't have any problem finding my role on a team when I'm playing a sentinel.

 

Maybe it's my adaptive playstyle.

 

 

[Nerva]

Keep in mind that I'm talking purely from a gameplay perspective, @UltraAlt.  I realize Sentinels' powerset have precedent in superhero comics, but their ability to contribute to a team in CoH's gameplay is underwhelming and they have no niche in the ecology of archetypes in a team to fill that isn't done absolutely better by other archetypes.

 

Scrappers and Stalkers are both melee DPS archetypes with a defense set, but their defense set is necessary to allow them to get close enough to properly utilize their melee-range damage powers.  Even between one another, Scrapper is more consistent and less controlled, while Stalker has greater spike damage at the cost of sustained DPS and can more precisely control when those spikes happen, giving each a unique identity and role to fill in a team.

 

Blasters and Corruptors are both ranged DPS archetypes.  Blasters focus on damage dealing at any range and having an inherent that steadily boosts damage and allows them to maintain an offense even when mezzed.  Corruptors branch into support skills and having an inherent that makes them better at finishing off weakened enemies than they are at engaging.  Again, two different identities even if they fill the same role, and both can be desirable in a team in the right situations.  When a Corruptor's extra damage isn't necessary, they can ease the load on the Defender and Controller by buffing, only to switch to damage dealing when the enemy passes the Scourge threshold.

 

What I'm trying to figure out is where the Sentinel fits in a team, what they do and what their identity in doing it is supposed to be, and making them better at it so that they're competitive with other ATs.  Even having a similar role to another AT is fine, so long as they have a unique identity in filling it and both their inherent and powersets function well and inuitively for the purpose.  Right now, that's not happening.

[Aurora_Girl]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Er, what?

 

Thoughts on the Sentinel

Blasters are this ::

 

 

Sentinels are this ::

 

 

Blasters are this ::

 

 

Sentinels are this ::

 

 

I like all the Archetypes.

I don't find any problem with a Sentinel. 

I don't have any problem finding my role on a team when I'm playing a sentinel.

 

Maybe it's my adaptive playstyle.

 

 

 

Iron Man can blow up a building. 

 

Sentinels would be lucky to blow up a cardboard box. 

[Gobbledigook]

I am happy playing my Widow at the moment. They bring some very nice support skills to a team and their damage is decent also without limited targets. Their defences are really good also.

 

The Sentinel brings nothing these guys can't do better. 

 

The Sentinel should probably be a Dps class with lower than Scrapper damage but with spikes exceeding scrapper damage when Opportunity is up in my opinion. There is always room for another dps on a team. But we all have different ideas and it is ultimately down to the development team.

 

Another idea is Opportunity could be a % chance to recover or gain the Build up skill.

[UltraAlt]

5 hours ago, Nerva said:

their ability to contribute to a team in CoH's gameplay is underwhelming and they have no niche in the ecology of archetypes in a team to fill that isn't done absolutely better by other archetypes.

 

This is a matter of opinion and not fact.

 

5 hours ago, Nerva said:

What I'm trying to figure out is where the Sentinel fits in a team, what they do and what their identity in doing it is supposed to be

 

They are armored ranged attackers that can withstand more of a hit than blasters.

The can fight from the midline. From this position they are a defensive line between the melee fighters and the squishees.

 

I really don't think that you have played them very much if you can't figure out why they are fun to play or how they fit into team dynamics.

If you aren't playing one, then start playing one and figure it out for yourself. You seem to be shooting it down for some vague reason.

I haven't had any issues playing a Sentinel and being helpful to a team.

I haven't had issues with other player(s) playing sentinel(s) on a team I was in or was running.

 

Stalkers on the other hand, take a very long time to execute an assassin strike so have decided to leave teams because I wasn't useful. On the other hand, I have left teams because the stalker ran to the end of a mission and assassinated the target enemies before the entire team had even entered the mission (in one case after I had waited around for 10 minutes for the team leader to finish recruiting). So I have more issues with Stalkers not having a real role on a team more than I do with Sentinels. 

 

[Wavicle]

57 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

Stalkers on the other hand, take a very long time to execute an assassin strike so have decided to leave teams because I wasn't useful.

stalkers get instant AS in combat now

[Nerva]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

This is a matter of opinion and not fact.

 

Hmm.

 

6 hours ago, Aurora_Girl said:

Sentinels would be lucky to blow up a cardboard box. 

On 12/23/2021 at 7:57 PM, Teirusu said:

As it's been pointed out, they really can't leverage their armor secondary as much as the other armored ATs.

On 12/21/2021 at 10:33 PM, Lazarillo said:

Tankers used to have an inherent that would automatically put a small resist debuff on an enemy when they used their t1 ability.  This was deemed generally kind of poor and Tankers ended up with buffed damage all around instead.  The Sentinel inherent is that same debuff...but with extra steps to activate it.  That probably says right that all about a big problem Sentinels are gonna have on top of everything else.

On 12/20/2021 at 4:33 PM, Troo said:

Sentinels = tempered expectations

On 12/21/2021 at 12:09 AM, Gobbledegook said:

We have Arachnos widows/soldiers, are they not support/dps?  They are on a higher damage scale than sentinels. They hit more targets than Sentinels. They have better support skills than Sentinels and they are durable also. They even have better Range.

 

Why do the Sentinels get the shaft compared to these?

On 12/14/2021 at 5:09 PM, MHertz said:

I’m saying that the anemic damage they do does not justify the amount of self-defense they are designed with. I’m also saying that upping the damage alone won’t solve the problem without also simultaneously breaking Blasters.

 

If it is, as you say, a matter of 'opinion and not fact' then the opinion is hardly just mine.

 

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

They are armored ranged attackers that can withstand more of a hit than blasters.

The can fight from the midline. From this position they are a defensive line between the melee fighters and the squishees.

 

And yet they aren't built to fight from the midline.  They have no aggro generation to intercept anything, and thus can't serve as a defensive line.  They are being out-aggroed by backline characters and their lowered target caps mean that if too many mobs peel off the tank and start heading for the backfield at once, Sentinel can't do much to stop it even if they can catch aggro.

 

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

I really don't think that you have played them very much if you can't figure out why they are fun to play or how they fit into team dynamics.

If you aren't playing one, then start playing one and figure it out for yourself. You seem to be shooting it down for some vague reason.

I haven't had any issues playing a Sentinel and being helpful to a team.

I haven't had issues with other player(s) playing sentinel(s) on a team I was in or was running.

 

I have played Sentinels, and I have had these problems.  I stopped playing Sentinels because of these problems.  I am trying to figure out exactly what I'm doing wrong, if anything.  If I'm not (which from the number of similar experiences I see from people playing them, I'm inclined to believe I'm not) I'd like to see them fixed to have a better-realized role and niche in party dynamics.

 

Your anecdotes are no more or less valuable than anyone else's here.  If you truly think other people are playing it wrong, give some examples of your playstyle, how you find a useful position in a party, and justify your criticism.  Perhaps you have an insight that others could benefit from.  Otherwise, I'm inclined to take your claims with a grain of salt, because you're basically saying "I don't have a problem, you all need to git gud" and then not elaborating on what "gitting gud" actually entails.

 

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

Stalkers on the other hand, take a very long time to execute an assassin strike so have decided to leave teams because I wasn't useful. On the other hand, I have left teams because the stalker ran to the end of a mission and assassinated the target enemies before the entire team had even entered the mission (in one case after I had waited around for 10 minutes for the team leader to finish recruiting). So I have more issues with Stalkers not having a real role on a team more than I do with Sentinels. 

 

Stalker's role is similar to that of Scrapper - survivable melee DPS.  Unlike Scraper however, Stalker has a focus on initiation and spike damage.  Where scrapper takes it on the chin on the regular, deals high and steady damage with occasional bursts from Critical Hit, and can intercept with the use of Confront, Stalker is encouraged to avoid unncessary hits and aggro with their Stealth/Placate mechanic and use their intense but controllable spike damage from Assassin Strike to tear down threatening targets without being the focus of those targets.  Stalkers are assassins - they remove enemies that pose high threat to the tank (like Malta Sappers, Carnie Mistresses, and Arachnos Fortunatas) from a mob before they can become an issue, then work down the rest of the mob like a Scrapper might.

 

But this isn't the thread to discuss Stalker.  If you'd like to, you're welcome to make your own.

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Nerva
Clarify and wording

[A Cat]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

Stalkers on the other hand, take a very long time to execute an assassin strike so have decided to leave teams because I wasn't useful.

I won't claim to be the expert on stalkers but I play them a good amount. Basically, I save the show AS for solo play. Just use your best non-AS initially out of hide (could even be AOE if the situation calls for it, but usually the team has enough AOE that I go for the boss instead) and then attack assassin's focus and fast AS things as needed, with the hidden proc in AS so I can crit as soon as I hit them with AS (this also prevents you from accidentally doing a slow AS which really messes up your rhythm/dps). I haven't tried the new placate but that may be good to for yet another crit. Stalkers on teams are like scrappers with more control on when their crit lands, play-style wise. 

[Ignatz the Insane]

The more I think about it, the more I believe leveraging Sentinel durability is the best way to improve team utility.  As mostly ranged attackers with excellent resists/defense/mez protection, they can take on quite a few attackers in relative safety.  Because of this they are a joy to play solo.  My Fire/Bio is one of my favorite characters.

 

They're fine for teams at the default settings, or even most +1-3 Task Forces, but I'd rather play almost any other class for high difficulty content.  I do think it's important to note that most teams aren't pushing the envelope from what I've seen (I could be wrong). 

[Zepp]

Before trying to decide how to "fix" Sentinels, I think it is important to ask, "What should a Sentinel be?"

This brings us to the peculiar design of Sentinels...

Sentinels as Tank Mage (last line of defense to protect squishies):

• Lack taunt
• Range is lower, meaning that if they are "in position" they are out of range for most targets.
• Limited AoE cap makes hoard breakthroughs less containable as they can not generate sufficient threat.
• Lower armor numbers make this position less tenable.

Sentinels as off-tank:

• Lacks support to help tank maintain aggro
• Lacks taunt
• Low armor values

Sentinels as Snipers (ranged Stalkers):

• Lack Snipe
• Lack range
• Lack spike damage

Sentinels as Scouts:

• No Stealth
• No +Perception
• No default mechanism to distribute intel outside of chat

 

So, basically, it is difficult to see what role the developers intended for this class. They are fun to play, and pretty good solo. However, they do not really improve team composition.