Stalker Quick Activation A.S. Bug with Suggested added Mechanic Fix/Prevention (AoE Placate and Full Hide)

[Solarverse]

So Placate has been bugged for a while now. Or maybe it is just the mechanic all together of the Fast Activating Assassin's Strike (or other variants) that is bugged. Placate has its own bugs, but this is speaking more specifically when after using it, sometimes you might get the Full Power of Assassin's Strike, sometimes you still get the Fast Activation Assassin's Strike. Some players have been reporting that they never get the Full Power version at all unless they use Assassin's Strike as their opener.  This has been reported before and sadly didn't get much traction. However, recently it was brought up again and finally it is getting some attention from the players.

THIS IS THE THREAD HERE

 

As a bug, that is going to be one that will be tricky to figure out the cause of. The reason is that, it is assumed that the primary reason the Assassin's Strike activates quickly instead of the Full Power Version after using Placate, is because Placate only places you in a (which can be fixed by allowing Placate to place you in to Full Hide like it was originally intended to do) Pseudo Hide. When the circumstances allow Assassin's Strike to cast quickly, it tends to negate the slow activation that should take place when the caster uses Placate, which puts them in a Pseudo Hide rather than Full Hide. The only time your Assassin's Strike will give you the Full Version even if you are procced for a quick version, is if you are in Full Hide, which takes 6 seconds from the last damage dealt or taken. Of course this is just my personal running theory. However, what we do know is that the root cause for this bug is because Assassin's Strike is procced for quick casting, and the game doesn't seem to know if it should Quick Cast after using Placate, or if it should allow the Full Power Assassin's Strike. So the chances of getting the Full Version seems to be about 50/50 for some and absolute zero for others. I think the reason for this may depend on the power set; just a guess.

 

SUGGESTION

Allow Placate to place you back in to Full Hide and made an AoE Placate when you have Assassin's Focus Charges. The conditions for this must be met by using Placate while you have Assassin's Focus Charges, otherwise Placate works no differently than it works now.

Here is how this works. When you use Placate, it will use up any and all Assassin's Focus when doing so. The mechanics for this will play as follows; each Assassin's Focus it uses will place you in Full Hide for 2 seconds per Assassin's Focus Charge. If you have three of them, it will place you in Full Hide for the 6 seconds it takes to put you in to Full Hide Naturally, additionally it will turn the Single Target Placate in to an AoE Placate for 10 Feet per Assassin's Focus consumed, not to exceed 30 Feet.

 

This not only allows Assassin's Strike to bypass the Bug and use the Full Cast Version, but also extends the mechanic that already exists. This also gives the desired effect that Placate had before it was nerfed due to players having a lack of Resistances to Placate in those early days. Now that the lack of Resistances no longer exist, that nerf is no longer a requirement, but rather a hindrance since Resistances to Placate are very common in today's game. The nerf that took place can now be reverted by means of a procc mechanic that already exists, but can be added to.

@Wavicle You may be interested in this.

To the rest of you, thoughts?

 

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Solarverse

[TheZag]

Ive literally never played a stalker but all of that suggestion made sense and sounded good to me.  

 

Now i just need to pick a stalker power that feels better then the regular version.

[golstat2003]

Interesting. Never knew this was an issue as I rarely play my stalker these days. Good suggestion.

[Wavicle]

I kinda like it, but I also feel like Placate should just WORK LIKE THAT without having to spend our stacks of Focus on it.

[Solarverse]

18 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I kinda like it, but I also feel like Placate should just WORK LIKE THAT without having to spend our stacks of Focus on it.

 

The way I see it, what were you going to do with those stacks of Focus anyway if the desired effect is to get the Full use of Assassin's Strike after Placate? Picken up what I'm dropping down?

[Vanden]

According to City of Data, Placate and Hide already do the same thing to achieve Hidden status. There's no such thing as "pseudo" Hide.

[Solarverse]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

According to City of Data, Placate and Hide already do the same thing to achieve Hidden status. There's no such thing as "pseudo" Hide.

 

not according to Castle, Castle specifically told us in the Stalker forums during live, that Placate no longer puts you in Hide, it only puts you in Pseudo Hide. This was verified in PvP, where if you were Placated, you could still see the Stalker, you just couldn't target the Stalker.

[Vanden]

16 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

not according to Castle, Castle specifically told us in the Stalker forums during live, that Placate no longer puts you in Hide, it only puts you in Pseudo Hide. This was verified in PvP, where if you were Placated, you could still see the Stalker, you just couldn't target the Stalker.

 

Stealth Radius is not an essential component of the Hidden status. It’s governed by the Meter attribute; when a Stalker’s Meter is at 100%, it becomes Hidden. Placate and unsuppressed Hide both set the Meter to 100%.

 

The reason you can still see a Stalker in PvP after it Placates you, but not when it's in unsuppressed Hide, is because Placate gives less Stealth Radius in PvP than Hide.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Vanden

[Solarverse]

17 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

Stealth Radius is not an essential component of the Hidden status. It’s governed by the Meter attribute; when a Stalker’s Meter is at 100%, it becomes Hidden. Placate and unsuppressed Hide both set the Meter to 100%.

 

The reason you can still see a Stalker in PvP after it Placates you, but not when it's in unsuppressed Hide, is because Placate gives less Stealth Radius in PvP than Hide.

Trust me, I understand the concept full well of how Hide/Stealth works. I mean, if you would like me to prove it to you I have time. Just log on a character with zero +perception and this can be verified.

All I am saying is that is not at all how Castle explained it to us.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Solarverse

[Solarverse]

26 minutes ago, Vanden said:

The reason you can still see a Stalker in PvP after it Placates you, but not when it's in unsuppressed Hide, is because Placate gives less Stealth Radius in PvP than Hide.

 

Even if this is the case, the suggestion covers that by saying Full Hide, you can easily equate that to Full Stealth. Either way, right or wrong, the desired Suggestion still remains the same and getting too deep in to what hide is or is not only complicates the suggestion and "placates" the overall meaning of the request. However, the term "Pseudo Hide" was a term coined by Castle himself. So any confusion there has the source that dates back to him. He called it Pseudo Hide, so that is what the rest of us called it as well. So for argument's sake, let's just say that instead of Full Hide, we call it 100% Stealth from Hide.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Solarverse

[Vanden]

4 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Even if this is the case, the suggestion covers that by saying Full Hide, you can easily equate that to Full Stealth. Either way, right or wrong, the desired Suggestion still remains the same and getting too deep in to what hide is or is not only complicates the suggestion and "placates" the overall meaning of the request. However, the term "Pseudo Hide" was a term coined by Castle himself. So any confusion there has the source that dates back to him. He called it Pseudo Hide, so that is what the rest of us called it as well. So for argument's sake, let's just say that instead of Full Hide, we call it 100% Stealth from Hide.

 

The whole basis of your suggestion is that the difference between how Placate and Hide put you in Hidden are somehow the cause of Assassin's Strike doing the wrong version of the attack, but the only salient difference between the powers in this context is that Placate gives slightly less Stealth Radius in PvP. Since Stealth Radius isn't what Assassin's Strike checks when deciding between the fast or slow version, the suggestion wouldn't accomplish anything. It's entirely founded on a faulty premise.

[Solarverse]

12 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

The whole basis of your suggestion is that the difference between how Placate and Hide put you in Hidden are somehow the cause of Assassin's Strike doing the wrong version of the attack, but the only salient difference between the powers in this context is that Placate gives slightly less Stealth Radius in PvP. Since Stealth Radius isn't what Assassin's Strike checks when deciding between the fast or slow version, the suggestion wouldn't accomplish anything. It's entirely founded on a faulty premise.

 

I see what you are saying now. You are referring to the "Hidden" status, rather than the status of Hide. However, the suggestion still accomplishes the same thing.since the suggestion consumes the stacks of Assassin's Focus, which is another culprit of the cause of the bug. The other goal which was mentioned, was to put Placate back to its original status by use of the Assassin's Focus Mechanic.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Solarverse

[Bopper]

I'm just throwing this out there, but I have a theory.

 

Assassin's Strike (Dark Melee version, but I'm sure it's the same for any): 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=stalker_melee.dark_melee.assassins_eclipse&at=stalker

 

AS checks to see if you are hidden by looking at your character's Meter attribute (this is what's checked for all Stealth crits, and Placate grants this to you when you use it). This is a binary check, you either have 0 Meter or 100% Meter. The power checks if you have less than 90% (arbitrary). If you do have less than 90% you do a Quick AS, otherwise you fallback into doing Slow AS:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=villain_pets.dark_melee_assassins_strike.assassins_eclipse_stealth&at=stalker

 

Check out that last link...the extra damage is still checking to see if you are Hidden by doing a requirements check of "if Meter > 0". This seems odd because the execution of the power was already checked for this indirectly when we checked for "less than 90%". It makes me wonder, is there a bug by checking it twice? Meter of 100% (as provided by Placate) will cancel when you attack. So...is it possible that when you activate AS following a Placate, does it cancel the Meter prior to redirecting to the Slow AS? 

 

---

For those who may not want to follow those links, here are screen shots of what I'm trying to illustrate.

 

Placate (the power) will not only placate your enemy, but it will grant you 100% Meter for 10s which will cancel the next time you attack or get damaged.

 

When you cast Assassin's Strike after using Placate, the power will do a check for your Hidden status via the Meter attribute. This is a fallback conditional check, where only one effect (Redirect) can fire off. You first check if you are NOT HIDDEN ("source>kMeter < 0.9"), and if that fails you check the next effect ("Always") which just means you are out of other options so just do this.

 

When you Redirect to Villain_Pets.XXX_Assassins_Strike.Assassins_Stealth, you will see the extra 4.5 scale magnitude damage is being checked AGAIN for if you're in a Hidden state. Logically, this is silly as we would not be executing this power if we weren't. So the question is...is it possible we can break Meter between casting AS and executing the AS_Slow redirect? 

 

---

 

I haven't tested this personally, I just pulled up City of Data and pondered this idea (one which I was thinking about over a year ago when I was fixing AS in Mids). My question to those who have experienced the bug, is it happening at all like how I described above? Are you doing a Slow AS and just seeing small 2.5 scale damage, and missing out on the 4.5 scale damage? 

 

Another thing I should ask...if you're experiencing the bug, is it possible something is interrupting your Slow AS? In this case, you would be doing no damage and your animation should be interrupted (shortened). Perhaps you were being debuffed or AoE splashed while doing the attack and having that cancel your attack. Again...this is mostly just theorizing. Until I can get on Beta, I will not have had eyes on what is happening.

[Solarverse]

Hmmm, you may be on to something there. But how would that explain that sometimes it works as intended, but other times it does not?

 

And to answer your question, no. The animation is the fast version when it doesn't work. It doesn't do the slow version then give the lower damage. And I am absolutely sure I am not being interrupted. I did some controlled tests vs 1v1 enemies to test that about a year or so ago. When it fast casts after using Placate, it seems very random and there is no rhyme or reason to it that I can tell. The only thing that really stands out is that it always happens when you have stacks of Assassin's Focus.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Solarverse

[Bopper]

18 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

And I am absolutely sure I am not being interrupted. I did some controlled tests vs 1v1 enemies to test that about a year or so ago. 

Well...Placate got updated in Page 3. Did you re-do your 1v1 enemies test after those changes took place? I don't recall how Placate used to be mech'd, so it's hard to say what you might have been experiencing then.

[Solarverse]

7 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Well...Placate got updated in Page 3. Did you re-do your 1v1 enemies test after those changes took place? I don't recall how Placate used to be mech'd, so it's hard to say what you might have been experiencing then.

I can make new tests and record them. I'll do that when I get some time.

[Bopper]

Just now, Solarverse said:

I can make new tests and record them. I'll do that when I get some time.

I can do the same. If you get details on ways to replicate the issue, or if it truly is random then that's fine too, I can see about ways of finding a root cause.

 

[Solarverse]

57 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I can do the same. If you get details on ways to replicate the issue, or if it truly is random then that's fine too, I can see about ways of finding a root cause.

 

 

Just ran some tests and recorded them, I think my findings will be a bit interesting to you. I'll let you know when I have it uploaded. Should be about 10 to 15 minutes.

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

 

The whole basis of your suggestion is that the difference between how Placate and Hide put you in Hidden are somehow the cause of Assassin's Strike doing the wrong version of the attack, but the only salient difference between the powers in this context is that Placate gives slightly less Stealth Radius in PvP. Since Stealth Radius isn't what Assassin's Strike checks when deciding between the fast or slow version, the suggestion wouldn't accomplish anything. It's entirely founded on a faulty premise.

 

Something else I discovered while running tests, Placate seems to be functioning as an AoE Placate. Not sure when that changed, but visual effects shows it being AoE. So that kind of shoots my idea down a notch there.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Solarverse said:

 

Something else I discovered while running tests, Placate seems to be functioning as an AoE Placate. Not sure when that changed, but visual effects shows it being AoE. So that kind of shoots my idea down a notch there.

That was changed in the most recent major patch which also changed it in some other ways, so you should probably read up on that

[Solarverse]

Just now, Wavicle said:

That was changed in the most recent major patch which also changed it in some other ways, so you should probably read up on that

 

I was completely unaware. I'll check that out. Thanks.

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

I can do the same. If you get details on ways to replicate the issue, or if it truly is random then that's fine too, I can see about ways of finding a root cause.

 

Anecdotally, I didn't have this issue at all during beta cycle, where I mostly used Electrical melee.

Now Live, I have yet to pull off a clean Placate>slow AS using Energy Melee.

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Anecdotally, I didn't have this issue at all during beta cycle, where I mostly used Electrical melee.

Now Live, I have yet to pull off a clean Placate>slow AS using Energy Melee.

 

I think you will see the video I will be posting up partially backing your claim, considering Elec Melee was one of the sets used when conducting this test. Stay tuned. I have it uploading to Youtube now.

[Solarverse]

Okay, here is the video. What do yuo think, @Bopper @Replacement
 

 

[Bopper]

22 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Okay, here is the video. What do yuo think, @Bopper @Replacement
 

 

Thank you for the video.

 

I think I know what it is...in fact I can almost guarantee it. Notice in your first test you are level 50 and in the second test you are level 28. The target is level 35. I am almost certain this is a case of Purple Patch. I went on Beta and made a Dark Melee stalker and tested placate without hide. I was going into "Hidden" status every time. Then I set my level from 50 down to 30...now Hidden isn't working. So I checked City of Data and sure enough, the Meter attribute is not flagged to IgnoreLevelDifference.

 

I went ahead and set my level to 35, and Placate was making me Hidden again. Set my level to 34, I no longer was granted Hidden. So it's safe to say that is a bug and can be easily fixed.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Bopper