MSR & Stealth

[Ukase]

 

 

I took this snip during today's MSR on Excelsior. By default, with my celerity in Sprint, and having super speed on, I'm at 65 ft Stealth. In the bowl, idle, I was at 70 feet in parts of it, and 100 feet in different parts. 

But as soon as I attack Rikti, the stealth drops to zero. How can I convince certain tanks that Shadow Fall is NOT impacting their ability to taunt? 

Anecdotally, I have noticed on my tanks that I have to taunt more often than I normally would, as they seem to lose interest in short order. Part of this is because I have super speed on, and move away too fast. But when I turn it off, they still lose interest after I've traveled about 30-40 feet. And this is before I even get to the ramps. And it's with 6 slotted taunt, all boosted to +5. 

Is it fair to say that at +4, some npcs are more resistant to taunt? Seems like it would make sense, but I've never heard of taunt resistance. If it's not Shadow Fall, or Arctic Fog, what is impacting a tank's ability to bring the Rikti into the bowl. They swear it's the stealth, but it shouldn't be, given that stealth suppresses upon attacking. 

[Ironblade]

18 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Is it fair to say that at +4, some npcs are more resistant to taunt? Seems like it would make sense, but I've never heard of taunt resistance. If it's not Shadow Fall, or Arctic Fog, what is impacting a tank's ability to bring the Rikti into the bowl. They swear it's the stealth, but it shouldn't be, given that stealth suppresses upon attacking. 

It does some reasonable that a level difference would impact this, however the wiki articles on Taunt and Threat make no mention of level difference.

There is, however, a threat modifier in the equation:

Threat = Damage * Debuff Mod * AT Mod * AI Mod * Range Mod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000)

The item 'AI Mod', per the wiki: "This is a value that is unique to each Mob type. We do not know many value for this variable, but we know that they, in theory, could have a very large range of values."

 

It could be that Rikti are inherently resistant.  It could be that the Rikti encountered on the mothership are inherently resistant.  Too many unknowns here.

[Bionic_Flea]

Taunt does have a duration, so it could be expiring.  You might also have aggroed more than 17 critters and exceeded the cap.  Taunt is also a multiplier that is part of the Threat formula that determines critter aggro: 

Threat = Damage * Debuff Mod * AT Mod * AI Mod * Range Mod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000)

(https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Threat).

 

The Threat formula takes multiple factors into account, including an AT mod that IS reduced by stealth.  However, while threat is reduced it is not eliminated.  When I want to pull into the bowl on a tank I will taunt them and then hit them with an attack- judgment if possible - and continue switching targets to taunt and attack.  I'll get 17 to follow me but more will come if some of those 17 are killed before the threat wears off.  The threat formula is also why toggle debuffs are almost as good as taunt for herding.

 

Edit- Doh!  Beaten to the punch by Ironblade!

Edited February 17, 2022 by Bionic_Flea

[Major_Decoy]

Not all stealth powers behave identically. Cloak of Darkness, for instance, does not suppress in combat.

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Major_Decoy
(which is why I kind of wish Tanks got Shadow Dweller instead)

[SeraphimKensai]

You mean to tell me that you don't have people take turns cycling fold space to pull in mobs to the bowl? Where people are laying down aoe debuffs and damage to pop the targets before they can actually attack in the bowl. I figure taunt is only useful for stragglers.

Edited February 17, 2022 by SeraphimKensai

[Ukase]

I suspect some do use Fold Space. I did see someone mention that they may need to adjust slotting of Fold Space to include two accuracies, as opposed to just one. 

[BZRKR]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

How can I convince certain tanks that Shadow Fall is NOT impacting their ability to taunt? 

I recommend the following phrase:

"A Tanker that can't pull through Stealth is NO TANKER AT ALL."

 

That goes for Dark Armor Tankers pulling with Cloak of Shadows running. All you have to do is use your attacks and Taunt and everything works just fine.

 

[Apparition]

It’s almost always over saturation of Rikti and trying to pull too many at once, and/or people fighting on the rim and ramps, preventing Rikti from reaching the bowl.

 

Stealth auras have no impact.

[ZemX]

Stealth has nothing to do with Threat.  If it has anything to do with the rate of Threat Decay, I've not heard of that either.

 

Negative Threat is a separate effect that is featured in SOME stealth powers.  It is not a result of StealthRadius.  Shadow Fall and Cloak of Darkness do not apply negative threat level.  Group Invisibility does.

 

But that only affects the rate of threat generation.  And even at one less threat level, a Tanker still has more ability to generate threat than anyone who isn't another Tanker or Brute actively fighting them for the attention of that mob.

[TheZag]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

 

Looks like your defense could use some work too.  96% energy defense....i bet those mobs still had a 5% chance to hit.

[Ukase]

13 minutes ago, TheZag said:

 

Looks like your defense could use some work too.  96% energy defense....i bet those mobs still had a 5% chance to hit.

What really needs work is that tiny stack of inf. Not even a billion on that damn character! Soon, tho. 

[Doomguide2005]

5 hours ago, TheZag said:

 

Looks like your defense could use some work too.  96% energy defense....i bet those mobs still had a 5% chance to hit.

😜 I'll bet they had a better than 5% chance, especially the bosses.  Probably a smidgen over 9% for them.

[Snarky]

13 hours ago, ZemX said:

Stealth has nothing to do with Threat.  If it has anything to do with the rate of Threat Decay, I've not heard of that either.

 

Negative Threat is a separate effect that is featured in SOME stealth powers.  It is not a result of StealthRadius.  Shadow Fall and Cloak of Darkness do not apply negative threat level.  Group Invisibility does.

 

But that only affects the rate of threat generation.  And even at one less threat level, a Tanker still has more ability to generate threat than anyone who isn't another Tanker or Brute actively fighting them for the attention of that mob.

I ran a Dark Armor Brute almost nonstop for 6 months or so.  With Cloak of Darkness on I could jump into the middle of one group of Longbow and kill them ALL.  The group of Longbow that were right next to us?  Completely ignored what was happening.  Every time.  Until you attack one of the mobs in that spawn the entire spawn ignores you when you have Cloak of Darkness up.  I have not used Shadow Fall enough to speak to it's mechanics.  I love Dark Armor.  Properly used I think it is some of the most effective armor in the game.  I DO NOT recommend it for 'main tanking'

[Greycat]

15 hours ago, Ukase said:

I suspect some do use Fold Space. I did see someone mention that they may need to adjust slotting of Fold Space to include two accuracies, as opposed to just one. 

 

Pick up Ultimates. Night and day difference. (It's what my Warshades do, typically.) It's the difference between 1-2 Headman Gunners and a nice pile of Rikti, typically.

 

15 hours ago, BZRKR said:

I recommend the following phrase:

"A Tanker that can't pull through Stealth is NO TANKER AT ALL."

 

That goes for Dark Armor Tankers pulling with Cloak of Shadows running. All you have to do is use your attacks and Taunt and everything works just fine.

 

 

Just taunt the grates. (After teaching people NOT to break them.) You'll get *plenty* of love attempted murder from the Rikti for it. (Same with putting debuff toggles on them - they typically have the range for the debuffer to stay in the bowl and provide a steady Rikti input. )

[ZemX]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

I ran a Dark Armor Brute almost nonstop for 6 months or so.  With Cloak of Darkness on I could jump into the middle of one group of Longbow and kill them ALL.  The group of Longbow that were right next to us?  Completely ignored what was happening.  Every time.  Until you attack one of the mobs in that spawn the entire spawn ignores you when you have Cloak of Darkness up.  I have not used Shadow Fall enough to speak to it's mechanics.  I love Dark Armor.  Properly used I think it is some of the most effective armor in the game.  I DO NOT recommend it for 'main tanking'

 

I haven't tried it myself but I don't see a problem main tanking with it.  What you describe here is not a problem.  You generally don't want to aggro two spawns (on a full team anyway) if you can help it because you'll be over the aggro cap.  But if you do aggro them, stealth or no stealth if you are tanking you better be hitting them with something that has taunt attached to it.  Which again means stealth is irrelevant to threat generation.  When you want aggro, grab it.  You never want to rely on perception aggro anyway to keep enemies on you.  Not on a team.

 

Shadow Fall, btw, works similarly but across an area.  It does not suppress in combat so, like CoD, it can be used to wipe out one spawn while a nearby other spawn is blissfully unaware... at least until the controller on your team spamming stone cages like it's their only power nails them.

[Doomguide2005]

 

3 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Shadow Fall, btw, works similarly but across an area.  It does not suppress in combat so, like CoD, it can be used to wipe out one spawn while a nearby other spawn is blissfully unaware... at least until the controller on your team spamming stone cages like it's their only power nails them.

     And that makes them the Controllers problem.  If you want to be nice go for it or head after mob #3.  Chances are excellent if it's one of my Controllers those Cages are to keep them from wandering off in a stunned state while they get dead defeated by Rocky, LS, Tornado, Freezing Rain, Fissure, Seismic Smash etc..  Basically my Controller has them, umm, undercontrol.  

Edited February 18, 2022 by Doomguide2005

[Fastchicken1st]

I run healer/coruppter game is not that hard for me i dropped lord recluse last week. I can solo eb's and all this is on my first character ever.

[Songseven]

7 hours ago, ZemX said:

You generally don't want to aggro two spawns

 

true.....i prefer provoking at least 3!

Edited February 18, 2022 by Songseven

[Clave Dark 5]

18 hours ago, Greycat said:

Just taunt the grates. (After teaching people NOT to break them.) You'll get *plenty* of love attempted murder from the Rikti for it. (Same with putting debuff toggles on them - they typically have the range for the debuffer to stay in the bowl and provide a steady Rikti input. )

Whoa, I never knew these, either of those, taunting nor debuffing.  If you'll pardon the pun, this is grate news for me!