Regen and an epic'ed out build

[Zepp]

Regen 1.0 was insanely amazing (pre-nerf)

Regen 2.0 underperforms (current version)

Regen 3.0 is Willpower, and pretty good

Regen 4.0 is Bio, and is really good...

Which Regen are we talking about?

[Errants]

4 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

  Yes, min/maxes will find new optimized builds.  But you're overlooking the fact that there may be many ways to achieve it versus a handful.

And you're overlooking the fact that you're attempting to argue against mechanical facts and proven sociological game theory with anecdotal evidence...

When you choose to use empirical evidence, you can bring something to this discussion. Until then, your ideas and claims should be dismissed as easily as the smoke they are made from.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Errants

[ScarySai]

What is even being discussed in this train wreck of a thread now?

[Blackjoy]

14 hours ago, Errants said:

And you're overlooking the fact that you're attempting to argue against mechanical facts and proven sociological game theory with anecdotal evidence...

When you choose to use empirical evidence, you can bring something to this discussion. Until then, your ideas and claims should be dismissed as easily as the smoke they are made from.

Your response is nonsensical.  You, nor anyone else has presented any "mechanical facts" or evidence.  And if by "mechanical facts," you are referring to published formulas, there's nothing that contradicts anything I've said.  The closest we've come to evidence is Troo posting someone's table of survival times which showed /SR dead last, by a factor of 4, which is something I essentially predicted.   Nor does anyone have any empirical evidence, it's all anecdotal.   All of it. That's why I've maintained that the devs have to run the stats to tell us what's really going on. 

 

In addition, your attempt to state the obvious about people always finding optimal builds misses the point entirely.

 

What's apparent is that the only concept many of you have of the sets is what they do at lvl 50, and then you're incapable of understanding or perhaps admitting that at lvl 50, your /secondary's performance has little do to with the actual sets, but about what stacking mitigation is available. 

3 hours ago, ScarySai said:

What is even being discussed in this train wreck of a thread now?

I got into the thread when Kopok started talking about /Regen's performance and how it underperforms at lvl 50 and why.  For me, that naturally leads to an exploration of other sets.  /SR is a contrast because it over performs at higher levels.  Why?  There are variety of reasons:

 

1)  Because none of /SR's mitigation (excluding Elude) is dependent upon decision making, in contrast to /Regen.  As such, /Regen's realized  effectiveness will always be lower than its potential effectiveness.   IMO, that's unavoidable and some would argue a feature, not a bug.

 

2) The mechanics of the game allow for 95% mitigation  if you can get to 45% (59% for incarnate mobs) +DEF.  This essentially trumps all other forms of mitigation for scrappers. This is easier to achieve for some sets than others, notably /SR, /Shield, and probably /Invul in big groups.  /Regen cannot easily achieve the to-hit floor.   So this contributes to /Regen being perceived as less capable.  This led to a discussion of raising the to-hit floor and putting /Regen on an even playing field.   

 

Based on observation, people in these threads are focused on level 50 dynamics.  At level 50+, the bar for performance is intentionally unregulated by the developers.  That means people are arguing for balance in area that is not only intentionally ignored by the devs, but cannot be balanced.   The devs can't do it, certainly not to any degree of precision, and it would be a waste of time to try without a universal benchmark (which we don't have).   

 

The fundamental problem with almost all "balance threads" for scrapper secondaries is people are focused on level 50 and there is no metric for balance at these levels.  The devs can tweak/improve stuff all day along, but how would they know when you've tweaked it enough if lvl 50 is the focus?

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Blackjoy

[arcane]

37 minutes ago, Blackjoy said:

At level 50+, the bar for performance is intentionally unregulated by the developers.  That means people are arguing for balance in area that is not only intentionally ignored by the devs, but cannot be balanced.  

Primary source please

[Errants]

2 hours ago, ScarySai said:

What is even being discussed in this train wreck of a thread now?

Shenanigans, egos, and an unwillingness to critically look at a position.

[ScarySai]

Evaluating the sets after that whole attack type thing gets through should be interesting.

[Errants]

2 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Evaluating the sets after that whole attack type thing gets through should be interesting.

Yeah, the new patch notes just made everything get a lot more interesting...

[Gobbledygook]

Alas, still no buffs for Regen

[Gobbledygook]

Was refering to the new page on the beta server.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Gobbledygook said:

Was refering to the new page on the beta server.

 

Thus the sadness. They had plenty of time to get the debuff resistance added. 🙂

[Stormwalker]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Thus the sadness. They had plenty of time to get the debuff resistance added. 🙂

 

Yep.  At least the Damage Type changes won't make anything worse for Regen (well, except for those who are using Katana/Broadsword/Staff to shore up their defenses, who will find that Lethal defense is less helpful now), since Regen is largely damage-type agnostic.

 

Probably the big winner in the Damage Type changes is /SR, which doesn't give a damn about damage type (except for those wonderful Mind Control attacks we love so much, but that is nothing new).

[lemming]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Thus the sadness. They had plenty of time to get the debuff resistance added. 🙂

Someday...

[Norl]

On 7/1/2022 at 6:11 PM, Stormwalker said:

 

The Energy Melee changes were really huge.  I... kinda hated playing my old Energy Melee/Inv Brute, but I had to play her because she was my primary roleplaying character (I was on Virtue).  By contrast, my new Energy Melee scrapper has very quickly become a favorite purely for gameplay reasons.

 

And when I say I don't want to make the set hilariously overpowered, I mean I don't want Regen to either 1). trivialize high-end play, or 2). be far and away the best set.  It's fine if it ends up slightly better than the others, since you have to work for that.  But if it's a lot better than the others, well.. by definition that isn't balance.

 

The thing with Regen is, because of the way it works, small changes can have pretty large impacts to its survivability.  So balancing it is tricky.

 

My off-main is a claws/regen scrapper, with full T4 incarnate.  I don't pretend to have a minimaxxed damage build, but I did build for damage, making sure all powers were about 130 as Incarnate stuff typically gets to, and Incarnate choices to max damage, not survivability in any choice.

 

I took her for a spin on monster island and found out these two things:

 

1. She can survive at least four of the things beating on her simultaneously, no problem.  She couldn't tank a hive roundup, but this is much better than I was expecting for /regen.  I hasten (so to speak) to point out there were no moments where a bunch of lucky strikes might have overwhelmed half my health, only to be quickly regenned back.  It never got that far, suggesting damage mitigation as first principle was in high effect.

 

2. She cannot out-DPS their healing (yes, I tried the plant, not just the rock).  Not even with hasten and the Incarnate clickies temporarily active.  No, I didn't pull out HVAS or Goody Two-Shoes purity clicky or envenomed daggers, that's not core to the class, so I didn't try.

 

Anyway, for the latter I'm sure an alternate build with more procs would do better.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Norl

[Marshal_General]

I am not the Hero you wanted.

 

I am the Hero the math needs me to be!

[kelika2]

what year is it

[roleki]

4 hours ago, kelika2 said:

what year is it

 

Purple

[Crossie]

I always thought Regen should get a delayed damage effect on them.  50% of the damage is applied up front and the other 50% is applied over 10 seconds that way they can actually benefit from their insane self healing abilities.  If the enemy dies before the 10 seconds is over, part of their damage over time is restored much like illusion pets damage.  I think it would help to balance out their kit. 

[aethereal]

2 hours ago, Crossie said:

I always thought Regen should get a delayed damage effect on them.  50% of the damage is applied up front and the other 50% is applied over 10 seconds that way they can actually benefit from their insane self healing abilities.  If the enemy dies before the 10 seconds is over, part of their damage over time is restored much like illusion pets damage.  I think it would help to balance out their kit. 

Not possible with current powers code, though.  Would take probably pretty significant code changes.

[BrandX]

Was working on a build for Staff/Regen seeing as Form of the Body gives +9.98% to ALL Resists at combo 3.  Precise Strike > Serpent's Reach > Precise Strike > Sky Splitter > Repeat looks to give (with the build I made in mids) at least 300+ DPS.

 

The 9.98% should be perma given the buff lasts 5.96s

 

68.08% S/L Resist

60.74% F/C Resist

40.49% E/N Resist

58.49% Tox Resist

43.49% Psi Resist

PLUS another 7% Resist to ALL as you get lower in life.

 

How does those kind of resists do with Regen?  

[Gobbledygook]

Maybe I'll finally look into broom fighting...

[MirrorDarkly]

22 hours ago, BrandX said:

Was working on a build for Staff/Regen seeing as Form of the Body gives +9.98% to ALL Resists at combo 3.  Precise Strike > Serpent's Reach > Precise Strike > Sky Splitter > Repeat looks to give (with the build I made in mids) at least 300+ DPS.

 

The 9.98% should be perma given the buff lasts 5.96s

 

68.08% S/L Resist

60.74% F/C Resist

40.49% E/N Resist

58.49% Tox Resist

43.49% Psi Resist

PLUS another 7% Resist to ALL as you get lower in life.

 

How does those kind of resists do with Regen?  

 

Would you mind sharing this build?

[BrandX]

28 minutes ago, MirrorDarkly said:

 

Would you mind sharing this build?

 

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build |
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|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

Here's the datachunk

[ClawsandEffect]

Challenge accepted, guys. 

 

If Iggy could pull off a RWZ challenge using nothing but Swipe on his Claws/Regen, then I'm pretty sure I can come up with something that works. 

 

IMO what would help Regen the most right now is a renewing absorb shield like the Sentinel version got. 

[Gobbledygook]

On 3/18/2023 at 3:23 AM, ClawsandEffect said:

Challenge accepted, guys. 

 

If Iggy could pull off a RWZ challenge using nothing but Swipe on his Claws/Regen, then I'm pretty sure I can come up with something that works. 

 

IMO what would help Regen the most right now is a renewing absorb shield like the Sentinel version got. 

As I am in the middle of my regen project, I look forward to your results.

My motivation for it is waning, perhaps it will inspire me.