PVP or where on the doll did the PvPers touch you

[battlewraith]

2 hours ago, Krimson said:

Maybe instead of reaching for a false equivalence, you should ask WHY so many players have had the exact same shitty experience with PvP.

 

It's summed up in the part you quoted. I don't know why this is so hard to grok. Many people went into zone pvp unprepared and undergeared and had a bad experience. That's fine. I'm not arguing that they should change their mind. The problem is that some of these people thus argue against ANY kind of pvp. I had shitty experiences on some task forces. I don't do them again. But I don't go on the forums and argue against the creation of new task forces. I don't go into threads about new task forces or task force proposals and say "I don't like task forces. I don't think this should be in the game. etc." There's no false equivalence here.

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Many people went into zone pvp unprepared and undergeared and had a bad experience. That's fine.

 

And many others went in fully researched, prepared, had PvP builds when that became a thing, did quite well with them and still walked away with a pretty set opinion on PvPers in general that over the years was often only ever strengthened by forum posts from the PvP crowd across multiple games. So, I will happily go into any thread asking to push PvP into PvE zones and quite loudly proclaim my distaste for the idea and continue to explain why when needed. In other words, PvP, historically, brings in a certain type of player and more often than not, it's the type of person I wouldn't hang out with in real life. There are, of course, exceptions to the rule but they're the minority.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

And many others went in fully researched, prepared, had PvP builds when that became a thing, did quite well with them and still walked away with a pretty set opinion on PvPers in general that over the years was often only ever strengthened by forum posts from the PvP crowd across multiple games. So, I will happily go into any thread asking to push PvP into PvE zones and quite loudly proclaim my distaste for the idea and continue to explain why when needed. In other words, PvP, historically, brings in a certain type of player and more often than not, it's the type of person I wouldn't hang out with in real life. There are, of course, exceptions to the rule but they're the minority.

 

You do you. One thing I learned from almost exclusively pvping since I4 was to get over petty grievances. Some of the rivals I hated the most later joined one of my sgs and became good friends. 

[battlewraith]

59 minutes ago, Krimson said:

I'll be waiting for the legions of PvPers to come explain why dropping a billion INF for an unpleasant niche is somehow a good thing. I'm sorry but your opinion is the MINORITY, especially in this game where PvP has been hot garbage since the 00s. How many PvPers are there that are comfortable enough in their opinion that they would be willing to foot the bill for builds? I speak as a farmer who HAS handed out billions to players as well as making custom builds. 

 

I think you farm way more than I probably do and yet I can scrape together enough for a build. I think maybe you're overestimating how much a decent pvp build costs.

Yeah, my opinion is in the MINORITY of a game that YOU often point out is dying. So maybe close mindedness on the part of the MAJORITY is part of the PROBLEM?

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

You do you. One thing I learned from almost exclusively pvping since I4 was to get over petty grievances. Some of the rivals I hated the most later joined one of my sgs and became good friends. 

 

Great. It's good to find like-minded folks to hang out with.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Great. It's good to find like-minded folks to hang out with.

 

It is! Or sometimes you just crank up the Whitesnake and punch away by your lonesome. That works too.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

It is! Or sometimes you just crank up the Whitesnake and punch away by your lonesome. That works too.

 

Dude. What kind of freakin monster do you think I am? There is no GreatWhiteSnakeLion in my musical selection.

 

Here's some scrappin tunage:

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Dude. What kind of freakin monster do you think I am? There is no GreatWhiteSnakeLion in my musical selection.

 

Here's some scrappin tunage:

 

Lol I always think of you as being older than I am, but you're actually younger. So I guess Deftones is a good pick. Kind of melancholy though. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, battlewraith said:

Lol I always think of you as being older than I am, but you're actually younger. So I guess Deftones is a good pick. Kind of melancholy though. 

 

It fits my worldview. I was 19 in Germany in the Army when Nevermind was released.

[srmalloy]

3 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

I disagree. I think at this point in the evolution of the game getting geared is the least significant problem in the equation. Anyone can have multiple accounts with farmers, you can buy what you need on the market, and you can even get the accolades from the pvp vendor. The material requirement for entry has never been lower. Skill and knowledge are the biggest things, particularly working in the context of a team.

So you have the skill and knowledge hurdles, then you need to grind farmer(s) to 50, then accumulate the inf reserves to provision a PvP character. But, tell me... Which vendor sells the slots that let a character with three-slotted powers compete on an equal footing with characters that are five- and six-slotted with purple and Superior sets? Or lets the character skip around the requirement of reaching 50 before they, too, can slot purple and Superior IOs? It sounds as if there's yet another requirement -- that you have to get a prospective PvP character to 50 before you able to effectively start learning how to play them competitively... at half that level. A character exemp'ed down from the level cap to any given level is going to be inherently superior to a character naturally that level both from the additional slots and the additional powers past the reference level the exemp'ed character gets to use.

[Xeres]

Ah.  The only way I could see this working is if people flag for PvP in this zone.  By default it's off.  I say that because when i see something like this, - and I have seen this before in other games, it's almost always suggested by PvPers, and it's because it gives said PvPers more targets.  That may sound jaded, but that's because I've seen a lot since I started playing MMORPGs in 1998.  You want a good, fair fight?  PvP instances (battlegrounds, arenas, etc).  Open world PvP?  Not so much.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

So you have the skill and knowledge hurdles, then you need to grind farmer(s) to 50, then accumulate the inf reserves to provision a PvP character. But, tell me... Which vendor sells the slots that let a character with three-slotted powers compete on an equal footing with characters that are five- and six-slotted with purple and Superior sets? Or lets the character skip around the requirement of reaching 50 before they, too, can slot purple and Superior IOs? It sounds as if there's yet another requirement -- that you have to get a prospective PvP character to 50 before you able to effectively start learning how to play them competitively... at half that level. A character exemp'ed down from the level cap to any given level is going to be inherently superior to a character naturally that level both from the additional slots and the additional powers past the reference level the exemp'ed character gets to use.

 

Practically speaking if you've got the skill and knowledge to be competitive, you've most likely got farmers and whatnot. If for some reason you don't, then yeah, you need to do some grinding. But even then it's probably less hassle than it would be in some other games. A major part of the reason I stopped playing SWTOR was that every time they raised the level cap I'd have to regrind the damn augments for all of my armor pieces, for all of my characters. 

 

Pvp generally starts at lvl 50. Most people want most of their powers. On the other hand, you can arena at whatever lvl bracket you want--at whatever level of enhancement you want. That's an agreement between you and the person you're doing a match with. The prospect of facing an unfairly exemp'ed down person is, again, related to the implementation of zone pvp. 

[Glacier Peak]

29 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

So you have the skill and knowledge hurdles, then you need to grind farmer(s) to 50, then accumulate the inf reserves to provision a PvP character. But, tell me... Which vendor sells the slots that let a character with three-slotted powers compete on an equal footing with characters that are five- and six-slotted with purple and Superior sets? Or lets the character skip around the requirement of reaching 50 before they, too, can slot purple and Superior IOs? It sounds as if there's yet another requirement -- that you have to get a prospective PvP character to 50 before you able to effectively start learning how to play them competitively... at half that level. A character exemp'ed down from the level cap to any given level is going to be inherently superior to a character naturally that level both from the additional slots and the additional powers past the reference level the exemp'ed character gets to use.

Definitely a grind to get a character in shape for a decent showing. I've grinded and farmed for the past two weeks for the upcoming Homecoming PvP Arena League Season 1 that I linked on the first page. I created three characters and had one in hand previously that was eligible based on the rule set for the league. Each build cost between 700 and 800 million influence, Alpha Tier Four unlocked, and specific build choices that maximize benefits for team 8v8 play. There are certain builds that shine under the current rule set, so teams will have specific layouts to maximize their competitive advantage. Every team communicates over voice chat for coordination of damage spiking, evading, gathering quickly for buffs, etc.

 

All that stuff I just said is COMPLETELY different than PvP Zone play. PvP zones are the wild west, so to speak. Not like the horror stories people are bringing up from the old days on legacy before exploits were patched. No, I say it's the wild west because you're lucky if you see another player, let alone someone else who is actually PvPing. I'd venture to claim, with no evidence but my own anecdotes, that there are more badgers and roleplayers in PvP Zones than there are players who are there to PvP on all shards but Excelsior and RARELY Indomitable.

 

Edit: Oh, I should add that the team I was selected for was generous enough to help me farm up characters and handed out BILLIONS of influence to ensure everyone on our team was well prepared. Very positive experience so far, recommend anyone interested in trying out PvP in an organized way to take part in the next season sometime after June when the current season ends. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Glacier Peak

[tidge]

I was on Liberty, and I definitely remember that the server had more than enough jerks in PVP to last a lifetime. I remember one PVP zone event I thought was fun: it was multiple teams of heroes trying to take out as many Arachnos main base defenses as possible while the villains tried to beat them back. That felt like a cooperative event.

 

I also remember my Inv/EM tank being jumped in a higher level zone while simply exploring and having to hold off 8 enemies. That group wasn't particularly well-built, but they had a plan that included merciless and obnoxious trash talk. The Tank was never going to win, but it demonstrated what slotting for Stun was actually good for, and since I had been used to using Teleport from the original days of Unyielding Stance I think they were particularly annoyed that I didn't have to stay in one place. I had respeced by then, but I had gotten use to the power so kept it. I'm not ashamed to admit that it was easier to eventually leave the zone than to give the basest members of the server any satisfaction.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

Edit: Oh, I should add that the team I was selected for was generous enough to help me farm up characters and handed out BILLIONS of influence to ensure everyone on our team was well prepared. Very positive experience so far, recommend anyone interested in trying out PvP in an organized way to take part in the next season sometime after June when the current season ends. 

Which team are you on?

[America's Angel]

PvE is really easy, involves no dying, and people with bad builds can feel like gods.

PvP is really hard, involves lots of dying, and people with bad builds are forced to realize their builds are bad.

People who prefer the former aren't going to enjoy the latter. Add in the competitive element (something I can't imagine people are typically drawn to MMORPGs for) and you can see why the CoH PvP population is around 3-5% of the playerbase.

 

I like PvP. I spend nearly all my gametime doing it. But I get why it's not for the majority of players. (That said, I wish more hardcore melee PvE players would get into 1v1 pvp melee fights. It's essentially pylon testing on steroids.)

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 hours ago, America's Angel said:

(That said, I wish more hardcore melee PvE players would get into 1v1 pvp melee fights. It's essentially pylon testing on steroids.)

 

SG I run with did just enough so they could get the badges and a decent time was had by all. I even have a katana/nin scrapper built specifically to kill high defense characters just for those runs.

[Snarky]

Open world PvP = bunch of PvP vets on one faction camping another factions area (usually a hub or starting zone). Exactly what every mmorpg needs right…,

[ShardWarrior]

No thank you.  If you would like to PvP with other players, there are plenty of zones and arenas to participate.  No need for it elsewhere.

[Glacier Peak]

10 hours ago, battlewraith said:

Which team are you on?

tBBz

[Black Zot]

Forced PvP is good for one thing, and one thing only: giving bullies a fresh supply of victims.  That's what posts like this are looking for, whether they want to admit it or not.

[MrAxe]

No thank you. Let the smack talkers among the pvp crowd be isolated into certain zones please. That way I don't have to see it all the time in this otherwise wonderful game.

[KaizenSoze]

11 hours ago, America's Angel said:

PvE is really easy, involves no dying, and people with bad builds can feel like gods.

 Funny enough I enjoy AE801s which are very difficult PvE. Usually, several deaths.

 

But I am the minority.

[arcane]

11 hours ago, America's Angel said:

PvE is really easy, involves no dying, and people with bad builds can feel like gods.

PvP is really hard, involves lots of dying, and people with bad builds are forced to realize their builds are bad.

People who prefer the former aren't going to enjoy the latter. Add in the competitive element (something I can't imagine people are typically drawn to MMORPGs for) and you can see why the CoH PvP population is around 3-5% of the playerbase.

 

I like PvP. I spend nearly all my gametime doing it. But I get why it's not for the majority of players. (That said, I wish more hardcore melee PvE players would get into 1v1 pvp melee fights. It's essentially pylon testing on steroids.)

I loved PvP on live, loved it in other games, sure like dying a lot, like optimizing builds/attacks/procs, etc. But it’s not always about that. CoH HC PvP is something I can no longer do for CoH HC PvP specific reasons. So be wary of broad brushes 😉

[TheZag]

I liked pvp on world of warcraft but i never liked it on city of heroes.  My guess is that the majority of powers in warcraft were unchanged.  It felt like pvp was balanced first and then pve was built to work properly with it.

 

In city of heroes pve was built first and then pvp was inserted.  But you already had invincible tanks and controllers with holds that lasted a minute and an entire list of things that were horribly imbalanced for pvp.  I remember taking my controller into the arena and not be able to do anything.  I was left wondering why i could dominate pve and not even land an attack in pvp.  Turned out pvp was nothing like pve and multiple builds werent a thing back then.  I didnt go back because i didnt need to get stomped by people that were built for pvp.

 

I have found some pvp that was enjoyable though in city of heroes.  A bunch of us made level 2 blasters and had at each other in a capture the flag style battle.  We were all essentially equal since we only had 3 powers and almost no enhancement slots and no set enhancements.  Teamwork won the battle instead of 1 persons pvp build.

 

My guess is if there were more pvp options that put players on equal footing such as enhancements have no effect or SOs only that more people would have joined those match types.  Also if there were rewards that were either exclusive to pvp or much easier to obtain through pvp while still possible but more difficult to obtain in pve could have brought more players over.

 

The pvp ship has already sailed though and it would take something major to convince the pve crowd to give it another try.  I do have some thoughts on new battle types for the arena that pve players could enjoy but thats best in the suggestion forum after i flesh out the idea a bit more.