issue 27 Focused Feedback: Toggle Suspension and Suppression

[brass_eagle]

On 7/16/2022 at 5:21 PM, Bopper said:

I see what you mean now. Technically that isn't suppression (like how it's being used in this thread). When you are held, the effects are being canceled. When the mez wears off it goes back to working.

 

3 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Yeah, definitely always been in the boat that self-armor toggles shoudln't even "cancel"/ suppress when mezzed, they should still be working.

 

I think there's been some mincing of terms and rightly so... they are similar. --Though Webster would like to contest that I'm sure-- some of this goes to @arthurh35353 for the OG quote here. Just can't figure out how to quote properly.

 

Suppression and Suspension are two different effects with the latter being a new mechanic.

 

Toggle suppression was introduced on live for defensive toggles. The effects would suppress when mezzed, but the toggle would remain on. The effects of the supressed toggle would return immediately after returning to a non-mez state. Over time that event became more and more unlikely for armor-based archetypes. It's worth noting the defensive aspects of Blaster "sustains" do not follow this rule. This is unlike all actual armor sets in-game. See before and after pics below--

 

Offensive toggles get suppressed for Mez+8.

 

With this change (new mechanic), some toggles are suspended for shapeshifting QoL purposes.

 

More confusingly, the patch notes designate the suspension as suppression which doesn't help. But I think we can figure out by context.

 

While a minor non-dictionary difference, there is an important distinction here in-game. Armor testing below of suppression before the change:

 

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by brass_eagle
can't spell the word "properly"

[csr]

I only tested briefly, but 8s seems awfully long.  I rarely take that long to get offensive toggles back up on Live.  What I particularly don't like is that it seems to make avoiding mez to begin with more important, rather than less.  It would be nice if a BF somehow reduced the period, but it would be simpler to just reduce the duration.  On Live I think BF use and retoggling takes me less than 4s on average.  My Rad Defender with the old cast time probably took close to 8s, but at least she would have Rad Inf back up in about 4s (faster now with the new cast time) and EF added in at about 6s.  Now she has nothing at all for 8s.

Edited July 18, 2022 by csr

[Bopper]

28 minutes ago, brass_eagle said:

the patch notes designate the suspension as suppression which doesn't help

I did not see that in the patch notes (but they are long and I could have overlooked it). If there is that designation somewhere it should be fixed.

 

As to the point I was making earlier in regards to using the word "suppression", I simply meant it exists already as a mechanic - typically in PvP but also for things like Stealth/Hide, where you attack and you have to wait 8s until your stealth effects return.

 

The mechanical difference between suppression and cancellation is a mod that is suppressed still exists (it just does nothing) while a mod that is cancelled disappears. You can make those two things look exactly alike as we see with armors that cancel when mezzed. The effects of the armor are removed while mezzed, but thanks to the periodic nature of the toggles you don't wait long for a new effect to be re-applied right after you are unmezzed.

 

Ultimately, it's sort of symantics. But hearing "suppression" of a survival toggle had me concerned that it was doing something it wasn't supposed to be doing.

[ScarySai]

This is the problem with picking two very similar words to label two different things that were colloquially referred to as the same term for the last decade. 😛

[Herotu]

IF the devs introduced an enhancement that extends effect duration, classes that allowed it, for example Tankers should be a priority, could use it on their toggles to mitigate the power suppression/suspension effect...

Edited July 19, 2022 by Herotu

[Luminara]

Have to say, the arguments against 8s of suppression are on point.  Locking everyone out of offensive toggles for longer than they're currently lost due to mez, based on an estimated average animation time for edge cases running four toggles, isn't an improvement.  That's like... setting every animation in the game to root for 3.3s because edge case powers have 3.3s root times.

 

If you're dead-set on using suppression duration as a proxy for animation time, it needs to be modified by the number of offensive toggles available to the character.  Suppression duration 2s * number of offensive toggles taken.

 

Or just use the cancel effect already available and make offensive toggles work the way defensive toggles do.  K I S S.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Luminara
added "have" to "because edge case powers have 3.3s root times"

[Marshal_General]

13 hours ago, brass_eagle said:

 

Offering conjecture here, I do recall a high (mag 12?) stun that sometimes hits as a death event for one of the bosses in the Roman Arena of Summer Block Buster. Lasts not very long if it does hit. But I don't have full recall of it.

 

Mag 12 would be enough to overcome the standard mez prot at the level.

I want to say its the stone attack that GottadammitIhatethisguy uses that fills the screen with rock.

 

I ran 2 SBBs yesterday, but could not get it to happen. It may be something that only happens pre 50

[WindDemon21]

7 hours ago, Luminara said:

Have to say, the arguments against 8s of suppression are on point.  Locking everyone out of offensive toggles for longer than they're currently lost due to mez, based on an estimated average animation time for edge cases running four toggles, isn't an improvement.  That's like... setting every animation in the game to root for 3.3s because edge case powers have 3.3s root times.

 

If you're dead-set on using suppression duration as a proxy for animation time, it needs to be modified by the number of offensive toggles available to the character.  Suppression duration 2s * number of offensive toggles taken.

 

Or just use the cancel effect already available and make offensive toggles work the way defensive toggles do.  K I S S.

Again though, I'll have to say the very REAL in game experience facts that:

 

1. The timing looking at activation times, should also note that generally, (ie needed fixed before this anyway) no toggle should take more than 1-1.5s to activate as it stands already.

 

2. That this does not let you choose what gets activated first which can already consider for lots to be a nerf, and most cases have only 1 maybe 2 (rad being the only i can think offhand of that has 3) offensive toggles.

 

3. Recharge again ends up being pretty much non-existent (and also factors when you want to CHANGE targets), and should not be factored in to the suppression timing (defensive toggles do not have to deal with this)

 

4. Defensive toggles do not suppress at all, and since offensive ones already have to deal with the purple patch and being resisted, there really shoudln't even be any suppression at ALL on the offensive toggles.

 

Factor in all of these things and even 3 seconds would be an outlier of possibly being too long of a suppression after the mez wears off, but considering current state- and being able to attack during that timeframe 3 seconds still ends up being the most that the suppression should last if it is to remain. Any longer is a nerf to almost any set out there. And in the *SUPER* early game having it be a *possible* buff (only if you still want it on the target that it's on after being mezzed and not a new target), it's still not going to change gameplay much at all and should be an acceptable help for the earlier toggle game.

Edited July 19, 2022 by WindDemon21

[Shocktacular]

Well, Beta was updated and the 8s suppression remains unchanged. 😞 

[Captain Powerhouse]

2 hours ago, Shocktacular said:

Well, Beta was updated and the 8s suppression remains unchanged. 😞 

 

We are nowhere near a release candidate [I don't think] and I had RL stuff hit me in the face delaying a lot of the stuff I was working on. My side of the patches that went in were committed before RL decided to interfere.

 

[brass_eagle]

15 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

I want to say its the stone attack that GottadammitIhatethisguy uses that fills the screen with rock.

 

I ran 2 SBBs yesterday, but could not get it to happen. It may be something that only happens pre 50

Gotterdammerstupiddung or something close to that. I tried the same

I couldn't get it to trigger either in two attempts. I checked City of Data... I couldn't find it. I could swear though. SWEAR there's a nasty stun there in the arena.

 

Maybe I'm just getting old in my 30s. Anyways, if it can be confirmed. I'd hate for the OG poster's concerns for a real bug to go undocumented. Edit: It's you!!

Edited July 20, 2022 by brass_eagle
I guess OG was you. LOL My bad.

[brass_eagle]

On 7/16/2022 at 5:51 PM, arthurh35353 said:

Isn't that the definition of suppression?

I can't remember if the End Cost is suppressed also though.

 

(Edit: Though, to be honest I wish upon a star that the squishies Epic/Ancillary Armor toggles (only) got 4.0 to 6.0 points of Mess protection to holds and 1-2 other types (and some more mezz resistances) as part of the armor toggles.)

 

I'll add to this. I think Suppression now has an added contingency definition for this Offensive Toggle Change. 

 

It used to mean strictly while mezzed for the toggles that qualified in the minds of the live devs when that change was made--Non-offensive toggles. A QoL for when Dark Armor got stunned and the like. With this change there's a conditional aspect based on the toggle's nature.

 

So suppression is a bit confusing. But I think of it like Ham. Can be honey-cured or smoked. Or just roasted. Confusing? Yes. Still ham. And my forbears would get me to eat any of those either which-way.

 

--These comments are apart from whether or not it should remain as is <3--

Edited July 20, 2022 by brass_eagle

[Shocktacular]

6 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

We are nowhere near a release candidate [I don't think] and I had RL stuff hit me in the face delaying a lot of the stuff I was working on. My side of the patches that went in were committed before RL decided to interfere.

 

Thank you for your response.  I was concerned that this was a sign that there was no chance of this changing.  
I understand that the devs have RL stuff, too.  Sorry for the premature despair.

[csr]

On 7/19/2022 at 4:54 AM, Marshal_General said:

I want to say its the stone attack that GottadammitIhatethisguy uses that fills the screen with rock.

 

I ran 2 SBBs yesterday, but could not get it to happen. It may be something that only happens pre 50

 

Looking at CoD2, Gotterdammerung has a PvP only (I'm assuming that's some quirk to make it only work on the Arena map) component on Earthshaker that does a 2s Mag 1000 Stun.  It has base accuracy and targets Smash/AoE, so maybe it just misses a lot.

[Marshal_General]

1 hour ago, csr said:

 

Looking at CoD2, Gotterdammerung has a PvP only (I'm assuming that's some quirk to make it only work on the Arena map) component on Earthshaker that does a 2s Mag 1000 Stun.  It has base accuracy and targets Smash/AoE, so maybe it just misses a lot.

Yeah I realized after running it a few times that most of my defenses with stone armor is around 50, so I need to drop some toggles so that he can hit me more often.

[Riverdusk]

I'd be curious as to why a character having 4 offensive toggles was used as the baseline average to come up with the 8 second suppression duration?  Was some kind of statistical analysis run that the average character has 4 offensive toggles?  

 

From personal experience and my own character builds having 4 offensive toggles seems to actually be on the very high end and not average.  Therefore the whole rationale of 4 offensive toggles times 2 seconds each = 8 seconds as the baseline suppression implemented seems arbitrary/excessive? 

 

Also as others have pointed out the flat 8 second suppression takes away from player agency in choosing in which order to reactivate the powers, so I think that has to be kept in mind as another negative to a flat global suppression when determining a "fair" suppression period.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Riverdusk

[Marshal_General]

What character can get 4 offensive toggles? My stone/rad tank only has two that I would consider offensive.

[ForeverLaxx]

26 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

What character can get 4 offensive toggles? My stone/rad tank only has two that I would consider offensive.

Rad Melee/Dark Armor can, among others. You almost have to go out of your way to get that many offensive toggles though, and usually those that can already have mez protection to keep them up anyway. Beyond that, you basically have to be a Something/Rad Controller or a Rad/Something Defender to get there.

[arthurh35353]

3 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Rad Melee/Dark Armor can, among others. You almost have to go out of your way to get that many offensive toggles though, and usually those that can already have mez protection to keep them up anyway. Beyond that, you basically have to be a Something/Rad Controller or a Rad/Something Defender to get there.

I think Dark Miasma with Dark Epic might allow for one or two more actually, but it's pretty unlikely.

 

A solution looking for a hinderance for some reason instead of just letting it fix things.

[ForeverLaxx]

17 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

I think Dark Miasma with Dark Epic might allow for one or two more actually, but it's pretty unlikely.

 

A solution looking for a hinderance for some reason instead of just letting it fix things.

Dark Miasma only has Darkest Night. Its other toggle is a self-buff with no component that affects an enemy. Even Storm, known for its end-heavy toggles, only has two that affect enemies (Snow Storm and Hurricane). The reason I called out Rad specifically though is because it has three enemy-affecting toggles with Enervating Field, Radiation Infection, and Choking Cloud. Even in this extreme case, you still have to have another powerset with an offensive toggle alongside it, be that an Epic Pool power in the Defender's case or a Primary Control power in the Controller's case.

 

Spelling it out like this makes the 8 second penalty even more egregious to me.

[Captain Powerhouse]

I already noted there will be at least one more patch reviewing the suppression window. 

 

One thing I wanted to clarify though, since I see a lot of people hung up on it, is my comment about the 8 second/4 toggle average while missing the end of that sentence: players no longer get rooted/locked on cast time.

 

I could had clarified this better, but it was indeed thought of that not everyone runs 4 offensive toggles, but there are many other things we observed. Maybe some more advanced players currently are lightning fast at re-toggling those powers as soon as they break out of mez, but it is not uncommon to see people prioritize on many other things before they prioritize activating those toggles. A self heal, throwing a hold on a foe, maybe simply try to finish the enemy off with a high damage attack, among many other actions. Then there is also how often players entirely just opt not to turn back toggles until the fight is over. This was mostly an observational thing, not datamined (we cant do that granular of a datamining,) but its very common that players either forget entirely or feel its not worth the cast time when the fight is mid way. 

 

After evaluating all the advantages, pros and cons, of what this brings to the table, the number zig-zagged from 10s, to 8s, to 5s, back to 8s, at least for the initial test wave. Again, the value will be adjusted again for the next patch, keep an eye on the patch notes.

[Wavicle]

I don’t know if I can handle that much transparency!

[WindDemon21]

2 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I already noted there will be at least one more patch reviewing the suppression window. 

 

One thing I wanted to clarify though, since I see a lot of people hung up on it, is my comment about the 8 second/4 toggle average while missing the end of that sentence: players no longer get rooted/locked on cast time.

 

I could had clarified this better, but it was indeed thought of that not everyone runs 4 offensive toggles, but there are many other things we observed. Maybe some more advanced players currently are lightning fast at re-toggling those powers as soon as they break out of mez, but it is not uncommon to see people prioritize on many other things before they prioritize activating those toggles. A self heal, throwing a hold on a foe, maybe simply try to finish the enemy off with a high damage attack, among many other actions. Then there is also how often players entirely just opt not to turn back toggles until the fight is over. This was mostly an observational thing, not datamined (we cant do that granular of a datamining,) but its very common that players either forget entirely or feel its not worth the cast time when the fight is mid way. 

 

After evaluating all the advantages, pros and cons, of what this brings to the table, the number zig-zagged from 10s, to 8s, to 5s, back to 8s, at least for the initial test wave. Again, the value will be adjusted again for the next patch, keep an eye on the patch notes.

This was also all factored in to our arguments as well. What this DOES do, is limit player input as to what toggle goes on first, that we would rather do that first BEFORE attacking etc. What this at 8s effectively does is limit playstyle to expecting that people wouldn't cast certain high priority toggles on first, which is not good. Again this is SUPPOSED to be a help to players, mostly squishies, to somewhat lessen the hassle of getting constantly mezzed.

 

Given previous arguments, notably that it shouldn't take more than 1-1.5s to cast any toggle anyway, the most necessary value for those who wish to lean into the toggles should be granted. A bonus to some, even still a slight nerf to others if it were at a 3ish second suppression, as opposed to a full blown nerf to ALL sets at 8 seconds. Again, this is to be a GOOD change, not "lets still try to hinder the players somehow to have them play how we want them to".

 

And again to the fact, that defensive toggles have yet no suppression in comparison, let alone purple patch/resistances, so even any suppression is still kinda dumb TBH. (pvp can be different)

[Stormwalker]

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I already noted there will be at least one more patch reviewing the suppression window. 

 

One thing I wanted to clarify though, since I see a lot of people hung up on it, is my comment about the 8 second/4 toggle average while missing the end of that sentence: players no longer get rooted/locked on cast time.

 

I could had clarified this better, but it was indeed thought of that not everyone runs 4 offensive toggles, but there are many other things we observed. Maybe some more advanced players currently are lightning fast at re-toggling those powers as soon as they break out of mez, but it is not uncommon to see people prioritize on many other things before they prioritize activating those toggles. A self heal, throwing a hold on a foe, maybe simply try to finish the enemy off with a high damage attack, among many other actions. Then there is also how often players entirely just opt not to turn back toggles until the fight is over. This was mostly an observational thing, not datamined (we cant do that granular of a datamining,) but its very common that players either forget entirely or feel its not worth the cast time when the fight is mid way. 

 

After evaluating all the advantages, pros and cons, of what this brings to the table, the number zig-zagged from 10s, to 8s, to 5s, back to 8s, at least for the initial test wave. Again, the value will be adjusted again for the next patch, keep an eye on the patch notes.

 

Thanks for the detailed response.

 

Just want to point out again in respect to this that how much a player prioritizes getting their toggles back up is going to depend on two things:

• What set are they playing, and how important are those toggles to their own personal survival/the team's survival?
  • As an example, I come back to Rad, because it's the set I have personal experience with.  A Rad Defender with his or her toggles down, lacking the benefit of the -ToHit and -Damage applied to enemies from Radiation Infection and Enervating Field, is a sitting duck.  This is doubly true given that the fact that you got mezzed to begin with means either you have aggro, or you're being AoE'd, meaning more damage is likely incoming!   Getting those toggles (or at least one of them) back online is definitely Priority #1 unless the enemy pack is almost wiped out already.  This may be less true for other sets that don't depend on their offensive toggles so much for their own survival.
• Touched on in the above note: What's the combat situation?  If the enemy pack is almost wiped out, then sure, getting toggles back up is not necessarily a priority.  If you got mezzed right at the start of the battle, though, and then quickly unmezzed, you'd want your toggles back up ASAP so you're actually contributing to the fight.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Stormwalker

[csr]

To me it comes down to the definition of "offensive" toggles including debuff powers whose main purpose is actually mitigation.  But then a lot of the better ones also have offensive components.  Rad Inf is mostly about the -ToHit, but it also does -Def.  Enervating Field does both -DMG and -Res.  Venomous Gas does  all those things.  But many, such as Time's Juncture, Darkest Night, Lifegiving Spores, Snow Storm and even Hurricane, are pure mitigation.  Having some of those out for 8s is a bit painful.