issue 27 Focused Feedback: Architect Entertainment

[KaizenSoze]

Just now, skoryy said:

I was chatting up General in Brainstorm tonight while laughing like a madman gathering up as many spawns as possible doing more testing and someone brought up a good point.  The aggro changes are gonna make fire farms extra spicy.

It might effect afk farming. I tested my active fire farm on beta, took more damage than usual, but nothing overwhelming.

 

I suggested the in aggro change thread that people test afk farming. I personally only active farm.

[Lobo]

23 hours ago, Heatstroke said:

I'll try and keep my ire simple. 

 

Let me play the way I want to play. Let me level the way I want to level. Removing it is NOT going to make me play more.. Its going to make me play far less. Im not 30ish anymore with lots of time on my hand.. im 50ish with a family and kids.. I like being able to login in. farm for a little bit.. get some levels and go to bed.. 

This seems like a "Blast from Statesman's Past" i'm going to make you play the game the way I THINK you should play the game.. and many of us remember how that went. 

 

 

ABSOLUTELY!. I emphatically agree. Most of the time I do this to interact with others. That said, I HATE it when people attempt to direct playstyle to their perceived "correct" way to play. Its elitist and inevitably kills the game.  I will definitely be online LESS, not more.

[Biosphere]

8 hours ago, Mr. Apocalypse said:

This really just seems like a very poor decision. The type of decision that typically would come form a pay to play game trying to extend subscription times, on a player base hungry for the next big content drop. This is not a good decision in a 18 year old game, on a  rouge server, that is primarily filled with those of us trying to relive our "glory days"

 

I do not pay to play, there is no contract between myself and the devs. This is their project and they can do as they wish.  I am however eternally grateful they have given me the opportunity to relive the past, without their hard work, it would have been lost forever. This just really feels like a "its our ball" type move and that really sucks.

 

Mr. Apocalypse has eloquently expressed everyone's grievance in this single post. You can't expect to remove choice from a game which is known for its creativity and its options and expect people to be thrilled about it. 

 

Imagine you have designed your very own architect mission as a big battle, a raid even, and you get together with your group to run it. A brand new mission nobody has seen before, and you bring your fresh 50. You struggle and get the victory and you feel awesome about it. In the current system, your reward for that can be several veteran levels, and some merits. Perhaps some threads. The system has a mechanic that promotes gameplay and gives you a reward for running content you yourself make.

 

I really don't think it's being understood just how much it sucks that if you remove this reward system it really puts a damper on the mood, because for some people what I just described is a huge reason to love playing. People like more options and more ways to earn rewards, not less.

[Dark Current]

Ah, well. The game was getting boring anyway.

 

For me, I'm not going to start grinding iTrials for vet levels, threads and empyreans.

 

Been there, done that back on live.

 

Good luck with the changes.

[The_Warpact]

I don't have time.

 

 

I afk farm because I cannot grind itrials/content forever to get the same thing quicker in AE. I have to PL a build, slot them out, and then unlock everything I need to get everything to T3/T4. Then if I get lucky on a toon that I built up I have a few hours Saturday night to run some end game content on my toon. 

 

This to me is fun, the idea, the Mids build, the lvling, etc, etc now remove a primary component of how I play and now I cannot do it anymore.

While I am a small percentage of the player base, how large is the farming player base that doesn't get on the forums and don't know this is going to hit them?

 

This is the reason why I quit Live because I don't have hours to grind trials/content for what I can farm in AE, which is the only reason I came back to play.

 

 

[skoryy]

1 minute ago, Biosphere said:

Imagine you have designed your very own architect mission as a big battle, a raid even, and you get together with your group to run it. A brand new mission nobody has seen before, and you bring your fresh 50. You struggle and get the victory and you feel awesome about it. In the current system, your reward for that can be several veteran levels, and some merits. Perhaps some threads. The system has a mechanic that promotes gameplay and gives you a reward for running content you yourself make.

 

If it's that suitably epic, it'll get the Dev's Choice tag and everyone gets full rewards.

[Biosphere]

10 minutes ago, skoryy said:

If it's that suitably epic, it'll get the Dev's Choice tag and everyone gets full rewards.

 

While that would be an awesome honor, that's not the point. People right now can make any mission they want, and if they bring their friends along, they can get possible veteran rewards and other goodies.

 

The core of your argument is that it shouldn't be viewed as a negative because you can just get Dev's Choice. While we currently have a system where you don't need Dev's Choice at all, and you can make your mission, and then go. 

 

It still falls back to what I already said. People like more choice, not less. You're saying they should be satisfied with less because if they get a handout they can get what they used to have for free given back to them. I disagree with that position.

[skoryy]

11 minutes ago, Biosphere said:

The core of your argument is that it shouldn't be viewed as a negative because you can just get Dev's Choice. While we currently have a system where you don't need Dev's Choice at all, and you can make your mission, and then go. 

 

OK, the game's been live for three years.  Where are these missions then?  You have examples?

[Abraxus]

I absolutely love this game.  I always have.  It is the only game I play anymore.  I play with a group of friends, and we have played since the heady days of 2004/2005.  We still get together once a week, and play the game with regular toons from level 1 to 50, and beyond.  We also farm.  We do it to varying degrees, and the ones who are constant at it, alternate between unattended, and active farming.  So, now having said all of that, I have to admit that I don't understand this decision.  I don't understand the real thinking behind it, or the intent.  It is something that will end up having a profoundly negative effect on the player base of Homecoming.  Many will leave for other servers, or just stop playing altogether. 

The basic fact is that farming is a choice.  Not everyone does it, nor are the ones who don't it, penalized in any way by not farming.  But, now the farmers absolutely will be penalized.  So, again; I'm gonna need some clearer reasoning for this particular change.  It is something that I could see if this were a live, revenue generating game.  But, it is a resurrected game, in a "free to play" model, existing just under the radar of the actual content owners.  Homecoming doesn't make waves, and the content owners make believe that HC doesn't exist, and don't file C&D orders.  Life is good.  The "live" model, and what we are currently playing are very different, and if you are going to treat it as if it were still live, there should be some sense that it is actually possible.  Right now, there is no such sense, and hasn't been since the conversation about "The Talks" died out two years ago.  I don't care what the status is, quite frankly.  I've been having fun playing, and farming, legit, or not.  But, now it seems like there is more of an effort to emulate the "live" game, to the detriment of the current model. 

Bottom line, the devs can do whatever they wish.  True enough.  They don't have to explain anything.  They have that prerogative.  But, without more transparency, and clarity on a decision like this, I'm afraid it will alienate a lot of players who have been with CoH since the beginning.  And, that is just not right.  We have enthusiastically supported this effort through donations, year after year, and I fear those donation numbers could be drastically effected as well.  And, all of that, for...what?  I, for one, would like to know.  Perhaps I'm being presumptuous in wanting more information on something like this.  Perhaps not.  I just think a touch of transparency might go a long way to assuaging the furor out there over this, which will likely only get worse as it makes it's way towards going into the production environment.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Abraxus

[Biosphere]

9 minutes ago, skoryy said:

OK, the game's been live for three years.  Where are these missions then?  You have examples?

 

I'm not sure what you're asking. The entire architect is my example. You can take a 50 in there and play whatever mission you want, right now, and get your vet levels with all the emps or threads that come with them, without the mission having to be Dev's Choice. With these changes that won't be possible. Which is the reason why every single person who enjoys farming, that has posted in this thread, has cited that as their problem with these changes.

[Dimensional Warrior]

Let people play how they wanna play. Do we not have enough govt over reach and control in the world today. We need to have it in our virtual world as well? Why does it matter how people choose to play and level in the game? Let ppl have the choice as to how they wanna play this game. Freedom over others personal beliefs on how it should be done. 🤗💖🌟

[skoryy]

48 minutes ago, Biosphere said:

I'm not sure what you're asking.

 

You set up a premise, I asked for evidence to support.  I'll take this as my answer and leave the discussion at that.

[Xbela1]

Why destroy AE?

If someone wants to farm vet levels in AE, LET THEM, it's not hurting anyone.  Isn't doing the same TF/SF/iTrial over and over every day to get incarnate salvage just farming by a different name?  Of course it is. 

In fact farming is more enjoyable and relaxing than many of the iTrials which, apart from BAF, I personally find very confusing and have little thought behind them.

And many of them are run at such speeds a person new to them is left scratching their head and dying wondering where their team disappeared to.  I did 1 MC and was left at the entrance as I watched the team use sspeed (which I never take as i don't really like it) and run past 90% of the map and mobs to the exit, leaving me and other noobs to die. 

Later on they vanished through a door I had no idea was even there let alone know that was where i had to go as nothing was explained or obvious. 

That is how the TF "FARMERS" run things, they only care about getting the incarnate salvage or purple drop, that is no more playing the full game than farming in AE.

 

Nerfing AE just means people will go back to using PI contact farms.  I clearly remember fire/kin controllers running farms in the old days.  So unless you're going to also stop that, what is the point?  If I want to farm and get vet lvls on an alt or help others to do so, where's the harm?

Or are there people complaining they aren't being buried in tells where they want to FARM their favorite TF/SF/ITrial every day.  Same thing isn't it?

 

I say don't restrict players in what they choose to do, add new things certainly but don't FORCE them to play how others demand they do.

How many times have we seen manic PVPers demand their favorite play style be expanded at the expense of  PVE? And scream how THAT is the only thing worth doing and how they are superior to everyone who doesn't PVP!

This seems to be the same.  The TF/SF/iTrial Farmers!!!!! are demanding we play the way they want to.

Add new things but don;t restrict how others want to play.  Different people have fun and enjoy things in different ways.

[ScarySai]

I would roll this one back until a general pass could be done on rewards involving the rest of the game, at the very least.

 

A very unsightly blemish on an otherwise mostly good patch.

[Bionic_Flea]

I played several different farms in the Brainstorm AE this afternoon for a few hours.

 

I think the combination of the new aggro rules, the reduced rewards from existing critters (or the harder hits from having to take additional powers), the reduction from 3XP to 2XP (or whatever), and the loss of Vet XP in combination with each other is too much.  My rad/fire brute with 90 fire resists and almost 50 fire defense was slowly being whittled away.  Even though he's already vet level 99, getting vet XP let him get the occasional DINGS and the inspirations that go with that.  But I don't get those anymore so I had to heal, move, and manage inspirations beyond just munching reds.

 

I was also power-leveling a symphony controller on my second account.  While the lower levels went by almost as quickly, the loss of XP from critters and the new formula made the 40s take longer than usual.  I was hoping to get to 50 to see if he gained incarnate XP, but it took longer than usual and I had to leave.

 

I have no problem moving the buildings out of the starter zones.  And while the new aggro rules make it harder to farm and especially AFK farm, I actually like it.  Its the combination of the loss of rewards from critters, the formula, and removal of vet XP that I don't like and feel are unnecessary.  It just feels too much.

[Dazl]

 

This is admiral and I think I understand what you are trying to do, but something this big needs the dev’s and HC who wanted this to address the community with your rational.

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Dazl

[DawL]

12 hours ago, Number Six said:

 

I didn't believe it either at first. The developer who worked on the multipliers for the post-50 XP in AE ran into an issue with the calculation and fixed it, and only later realized the implications with regard to the boosters, so we went and checked and discovered that sure enough they've been awarding triple XP in AE this whole time.

 

You can verify easily by running an AE mission on live without, then with a booster and comparing the XP awarded per defeat. Then do the same on Brainstorm.

 

Strangely, despite having been that way since the boosters were rolled out, nobody reported the issue. 🤔

Maybe I am a bit confused, but are we talking about using things like "Experienced" in combo with Double XP? Or is the Double XP buff what you are calling the "boosters"?  I thought because the game lets you use both, it was supposed to combine the benefits. (Double XP + however much "Experienced" boosts). So are you saying that it should have only been one or the other? Or am I looking at the wrong things? I am terribly bad at math but noticed a lot of times the values earned in AE seem to fluctuate anyway. This confusion may be why no one reported this. 

[Troo]

26 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I think the combination of the new aggro rules, the reduced rewards from existing critters (or the harder hits from having to take additional powers), the reduction from 3XP to 2XP (or whatever), and the loss of Vet XP in combination with each other is too much.

 

BF,

 

Is there one of the four Custom Enemy bullet points that would be okay? Or is there one that is the worst part of the change?

 

Custom Enemy Changes

• Power point values for all Custom Enemy powers have been normalized. Some powersets in the same category were set below standard point values and some were set above.
• This means existing AE arcs may need adjusting if any custom enemies were using the bare-minimum power selection for max rewards with powersets that were above the standard values for that type.
• Custom Enemy powers that require the target be grounded are no longer calculated as ranged attacks for point value purposes.
• All Custom Enemy ranged attacks have a minimum range of 80ft.

 

*Realizing we are asked not to debate with other players*

[Catalyze]

I do not like the changes on Beta concerning Vet XP and related changes to Farming. I played in 04 and 05 before quitting due to farming changes. This game encourages alts like no other that I have played. Most games encourage a Main character. This seems to be the way CoH is moving. Grinding out Vet levels without AE option, seems to be requiring me to run team events that are a compromise of my available playing schedule. Incarnate teams and event choices get limited during some hours of the day. I notice it because I am in game during these periods. So your removal of me getting Vet XP easily at my schedule, really hinders thoughts of trying to do it on many alts.

 

I left this game 17 years ago, when fire farming was nerfed into oblivion. It seemed like the Devs were mad that folks were powerleveling and players were not doing other available content.  Back then, there wasn't much end game content and now there is content at 50.  The Devs seem mad again 17 years later for players not doing content. When I came back last year, I was so impressed by the quality of life changes: Base Portals for everyone, P2W Vendor, AE farming, and Incarnate powers that were not an unpleasant grind to get. Hurting the AE part of the game is familiar history to me. It was important to me then. It is important to me now. Taking away from farming forces me to evaluate the game just like in 05.

[America's Angel]

6 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

I suggested the in aggro change thread that people test afk farming. I personally only active farm.

 

Already have. Check the second post in this thread for an AFK farming build & map.

[EmperorSteele]

That sounds like a lot of effort when the beta shard exists to give you instant 50 and free enhancements/incsrnates/unlocks. Granted, there usually isn't a lot of people to play with on beta, but if all you do is just rinse and repeat that often, well, it might be the better option.

[Bionic_Flea]

9 hours ago, Troo said:

 

BF,

 

Is there one of the four Custom Enemy bullet points that would be okay? Or is there one that is the worst part of the change?

 

Custom Enemy Changes

• Power point values for all Custom Enemy powers have been normalized. Some powersets in the same category were set below standard point values and some were set above.
• This means existing AE arcs may need adjusting if any custom enemies were using the bare-minimum power selection for max rewards with powersets that were above the standard values for that type.
• Custom Enemy powers that require the target be grounded are no longer calculated as ranged attacks for point value purposes.
• All Custom Enemy ranged attacks have a minimum range of 80ft.

 

*Realizing we are asked not to debate with other players*

I think that all of those, except perhaps the last one, are the same thing -- critters either give less XP or need to hit harder (possibly both).  The last one bothers me the least.  Someone else may find it the worst. 

 

I don't know what the magic number should be.  How much XP/Inf should a critter give?  How many hits should it take to kill a critter?   How much damage should I take to kill that critter and get that XP/Inf?

 

All I can tell you is that the combination of changes, not just the ones you listed but also the revised aggro, 2XP change, and lack of vet XP seems too much to me.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Bionic_Flea

[TomatoPhalanges]

20 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I think that all of those, except perhaps the last one, are the same thing -- critters either give less XP or hit need to hit harder (possibly both).  The last one bothers me the least.  Someone else may find it the worst. 

 

I don't know what the magic number should be.  How much XP/Inf should a critter give?  How many hits should it take to kill a critter?   How much damage should I take to kill that critter and get that XP/Inf?

 

All I can tell you is that the combination of changes, not just the ones you listed but also the revised aggro, 2XP change, and lack of vet XP seems too much to me.

FWIW apparently the aggro change is a farming buff, not nerf

(Specifically the aggro change, and I'm citing @America's Angel on that one if I'm remembering right, not being a farmer myself)

[Biosphere]

6 hours ago, Catalyze said:

The Devs seem mad again 17 years later for players not doing content. When I came back last year, I was so impressed by the quality of life changes: Base Portals for everyone, P2W Vendor, AE farming, and Incarnate powers that were not an unpleasant grind to get. Hurting the AE part of the game is familiar history to me. It was important to me then. It is important to me now. Taking away from farming forces me to evaluate the game just like in 05.

 

This is exactly what it's all about. The AE is considered to be too useful for getting those rewards, so it must be nerfed because other content has to be promoted. When you can't use one way to get items, you inevitably have to go somewhere else if you want it. Coercion rather than choice.

[Bionic_Flea]

19 minutes ago, TomatoPhalanges said:

FWIW apparently the aggro change is a farming buff, not nerf

(Specifically the aggro change, and I'm citing @America's Angel on that one if I'm remembering right, not being a farmer myself)

I'm aware of AA's opinion.

 

It's both a buff and a nerf.  Since more critters maintain aggro longer, it brings them to you once you've dispatched the ones around you.  But it also means you are taking shots from many more critters and even at capped resist and soft capped defense to fire that chips away at your health.

 

All that said, I don't mind the aggro changes.  While I do think that particular change will be harder on AFK farmers, I personally enjoyed it.  And sorry AFK farmers, but if you aren't at your keyboard clicking stuff, by definition that isn't playing the game.  If the goal is to curb AFK farming I think the aggro changes do it without all of the other XP losses.