The Pretty Good AE Debate

[Doc_Scorpion]

2 hours ago, roleki said:

No matter what the devs on Live did to discourage farming, inflation was rampant.

 

Fast-forward to Homecoming. 

Yeah, I should have stopped reading right there because the two situations are in no way comparable - HC doesn't have what Live did:  Untold oceans of inf sloshing about from three years of accumulation with no place to spend it.  (Not to mention a zero-to-sixty surge in demand.)

Your conclusions are thus, generously put, questionable.

[Puma]

On 7/22/2022 at 3:15 PM, arcane said:

People evading this question hard af

Because there isn't any way to really answer it.  It's actually a trick question. 

  

If I say it should be "25% better", then the question becomes "why"?  

 

If I say it should be "25% worse", it's the same question. 

 

So the REAL question we should be asking is "what is wrong with the status quo and why should be it be changed.  What OBJECTIVE metrics are we using that right now, it's bad, and people who are currently enjoying it are wrong, while people who are unhappy are right.

 

And if there IS no objective measurements for that, then it's all subjective, at which point we should probably say "OK, so if we're going to make changes from the status quo that will negatively impact a segment of the player base's playstyle, we're doing it for purely subjective reasons to make other players happier."  

[Troo]

18 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Do we actually have any dev-provided data mined proof that "An overwhelming majority of game hours is spent in AE farms",,,, or are we just making that assumption based on the constant begging in Atlas park on Excelsior?

 

be nice to @Bionic_Flea

 

it could easily be flipped "Do we actually have any dev-provided data mined proof that "An overwhelming majority of game hours is NOT spent in AE farms"?

 

they promised Dev Diaries, we may get a glimpse.

[ShardWarrior]

35 minutes ago, Puma said:

What OBJECTIVE metrics are we using that right now, it's bad, and people who are currently enjoying it are wrong, while people who are unhappy are right.

 

And if there IS no objective measurements for that, then it's all subjective, at which point we should probably say "OK, so if we're going to make changes from the status quo that will negatively impact a segment of the player base's playstyle, we're doing it for purely subjective reasons to make other players happier."  

 

This is spot on.  I would love to see the objective data that AE farming is the sole reason for the declining population and not other factors.  Until then it is all assumption.

[ivanhedgehog]

8 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

But will you admit that A LOT of door sitting goes on?

And since so much of that goes on, how is that "fun"?

You dont get to define fun. What is fun for you may not be fun for me. The fact that there are people that hang themselves from hooks for fun proves that. stop trying to decide what fun is for everyone. It doesnt help the discussion.

[ivanhedgehog]

3 hours ago, roleki said:

Circling back to this, but before I answer @Bionic_Flea's question, allow me to bloviate a bit...  

 

We can all agree that IOs changed the game drastically, and within minutes of their arrival created a massive gap between the haves and have-nots.  Inflation was absolutely rampant at the outset, and only got worse as time went on.  By the time I dropped out (Issue 18 or so) a decent build - the kind of build bandied about on these forums routinely as if they're no big deal - ran well into the billions of inf.   No matter what the Live devs did to curtail or discourage farming, inflation just kept spiraling into the stratosphere.

Think about that for a second, then think about it for a few more seconds.

 

No matter what the devs on Live did to discourage farming, inflation was rampant.

 

Fast-forward to Homecoming.  The HC devs have had some simple/genius fixes for the market that, boiled down to its most basic concept, essentially made Reward Merits the 'gold standard' for enhancements.  But they have also - maybe not intentionally, maybe despite their best efforts - fostered an environment where farming isn't just rampant, it's damn near the only thing happening. 

 

The last (and only) time they released player statistics in March of 2020, there were more /Fiery Aura Brutes than any two xEATs combined, and nearly as many of that particular secondary in that particular AT than the entire Stalker AT.   In that snapshot of time between April 2019 and March 2020, players had amassed 14,007,639 hours of 'time played' on /Fiery Aura Brutes, which was 3.53x more than all Tanks of all stripes combined, or 36x more than logged with Widows.  To save you the math, in less than one year of real time, /Fiery Aura Brutes had logged 1599 years' worth of in-game time.  

They probably weren't ALL farming, but, come on.  They were all farming.

 

They were all farming, and, they've been farming their nuts off for almost three years... which, oddly enough, is the same amount of time between the release of CoH proper in 2004 and the introduction of the Market in 2007, when everyone attributed whacky inflation to long-term players sitting on massive hoards of influence and suddenly finding an outlet for it.

 

So then, if players NOT farming influence still amassed huge piles of it which led to rampant inflation on Live, then surely an environment where there's been almost nothing BUT farming going on for three years has led to even MORE insane inflation on HC, right?

No, wait a second.  Check that.  A LotG Global Recharge costs the same or less today than it did in October of 2019.  They *were* 4M apiece until around then, but they hit 7M around that time, and have hung within 500k ever since.  When it comes to desirable IOs, at least at level 50, prices are pretty much stable and have been so through most of the tenure of HC.  

 

Now, you can credit a lot of that to the steps the devs have taken to level everything relative to Reward Merits, and (sigh) you can attribute some of that to marketeers converting my lead into their gold.  But you cannot pretend that farmers don't have a hand in KEEPING INFLATION DOWN by raining shitloads of recipes/enhancements on the market in batches of 70 or so every 45 minutes per farmer.  I would also argue, somewhat weakly but vocally nonetheless, that Farmers also make the market for IOs by sending a steady stream of doorsitters on their way to slotopia.  Yes, people occasionally waddle to the Auction House under their own power, but nobody's sending cigarette boats full of people to visit /AH at the rate that farmers are.

Simply put, if there is a problem with prices at the market, I don't think that's on farmers.  Despite our supposed billions upon billions upon billions of influence, the stuff people actually want at farming levels costs the same today as it has for three years.  If there's silly inflation on mid-level IOs, well, there's what your world without farmers would look like.  I mean, it's not the farmers or PLers who are producing or looking for level 20 IOs, that's you naturally-aspirated types.  If midgame shit is getting too expensive, maybe the answer is more level 20-40 farmers? Seems to work for level 50 stuff.

 

Unless I am misconstruing what everyone's beef with farming is.  I mean, if you're thinking that IOs should cost 5 inf more than what they cost to craft, I don't know what to tell you.  At some point, demand drives price, and those IOs that people tend to want as many as 5x of (LotG% for example) are going to cost... wait... somehow less than 5x what a Stupefy Stun/Range IO sells for?  Farmers!

If it's PLing you have issue with, and the resulting relative dearth of midrange players for you to team with, you may just have to temper your expectations, as nobody owes you a good time but yourself.  History, both measured and anecdotal, indicates that there is a very large contingent of people who have the option to play the progression game, but inexplicably pivot to farming and PLing instead.  It's almost like they are deriving some sort of enjoyment from that, despite the insistence of a few forum harpies that such a thing is impossible.  

And if it's simply an issue of "Hey! They've got more stuff than me!" the most delicate way I can respond to that is to not address it at all.  

 

So, anyway... if you're reading this @Bionic_Flea , up until this point 'you' was anyone who suffered through reading this, not 'you' specifically.  But now, I am addressing your enduring question... should fire farming pay better than anything else in the game?  My answer is: it really doesn't matter.  What really matters is that characters leveling through content earn enough in doing so to acquire a level's worth of IOs at the auction house, and do so from level 0 to 50.  The devs should have enough data to know whether that is happening, but just poking around tells me it's not.  I don't know what would help THOSE people out, but I am pretty dang sure that it isn't tied to how much inf a fire farmer makes or doesn't make.  I mean, progressionists aren't fighting farmers for those sweet IOs between 1 and 45, they simply aren't deriving any benefit from that farmer until they ding 50.

 

To me, the problem would seem to be, not enough supply for the ride to 50, and I can see where THAT could be construed as a problem with farming, insofar as there's a billion level 50 recipes getting dropped off, but only a handful of midrange stuff.  If it were in my power, I would make the rate of drops in content increase dramatically in the 20-49 range, with a little bump in influence to bring both ends of the transaction together. 

 

And since I still have the strength to type, might as well throw out a couple other half-baked suggestions and get all my thumbs down in one shot.  

 

I would look into revamping the Architect Ticket system and make it more aligned with the way Vanguard Merits work; it would require some fancy footwork, but there has to be a middle ground between randomly getting a Stupefy Stun/Range and always getting a LotG%.  If a decent middle ground existed there, then by all means, trade some of the AE influence rewards for tickets.

I would take the framework of the Incarnate system, and lay it over content from 1-50, except instead of working to unlock an Incarnate slot, you're working through a tiered 'accolade' tree that would, I don't know, grant a 0.5% global defense(all) bonus up to HERE, then it gives a 1% defense(all) bonus and 2% movement speed boost to HERE, then in the final tree, gives a 2% defense(all), 3% recovery, and 3% movement boost.  Then have other trees that also do defense, or resistance, or whatever, so that in the end, players that go through content basically get a couple extra IO sets worth of global bonuses not available to farmers/PL'd characters, and they can stack them to shore up one weakness or spread them around to make a more rounded character.  Tie it to the number of contacts who won't hand you missions anymore or something, I don't know, so existing characters would get the benefits too.  I would repeat that anywhere that devs want people to do more with (like, killing stuff in PvP zones grants PvP-only bonuses, and so on.)

 

Put it this way, it's obvious the content isn't selling itself, and neither are efforts by people to try and force other players into going through it.  If you want people to think twice about using AE as a leveling tool, you have to play on their FOMO.  

very well thought out.

[ivanhedgehog]

1 hour ago, Coyotedancer said:

Do we actually have any dev-provided data mined proof that "An overwhelming majority of game hours is spent in AE farms",,,, or are we just making that assumption based on the constant begging in Atlas park on Excelsior?

 

 

 

I know I spend more time in hami raids than farming. But I have fun doing both. I have made 1 toon on excelsior and he never did a single mission.

[Ukase]

3 hours ago, TerroirNoir said:

Well, that's an explanation and thanks for it. However, and bear with me and correct me if I'm misinterpreting this, you're not actually experiencing the farming as it happens, so it's not boring.  You're more like the CEO of a company reaping dividends?

 

I'm not sure that's a good analogy but I'm tired!

It's an adequate enough analogy. I liken it to rental property. You still have to make sure the property is okay, but you get paid routinely. Or like a slew of vending machines. You make a deal with a land-owner, plug it in, and routinely come back and re-stock and remove the bills, but be sure there's enough change to give folks change if they put in more than the price. 

[Akisan]

On 7/24/2022 at 2:23 PM, Without_Pause said:

My point still stands on it just being about damage and more damage.

 

Oh, and if you want to complain about the lack of damage types in farms, may I present to you The Council? I did +4/x8 on them before level 50 and with a regular build. The mission wasn't even in AE.

 

I never stated that damage was the only thing needed, I said that you don't need balanced defenses or resistances (see quoted post below).  If you're running a fire farm, you only need 45% fire defense, and 90% fire resistance (if on a brute or tank, less on other ATs because the cap's lower). S/L/C/E/N/P defense is irrelevant, positional defenses are irrelevant, S/L/C/E/N/P/T resist is irrelevant.  HP regen is nice, but not that much gets through 45% def / 90% resist.  Once you have enough regen (or recharge with a heal), and enough recovery to power your attacks, pretty much the only thing that affects your build is how much more damage you can cram in there (either through +damage or +recharge, or even fitting more AoE into your attack chain).

 

As for your second comment:

    A) It's not secret that, AE or not, The Council are a joke. They only sling around moderate slows, minor -res, and minor -def, they have light CC (on some of the mobs, mostly bosses), and there's almost no change in that enemy group once you get above 30 (so they're really mid-game enemies paraded around in end-game).

    B) That was with a regular build.  A specialized fire farmer's build with capped fire def/resist and very low all other def/resist is going to limp through a normal +4x8 mission, even against Council, IF they don't get outright demolished.  A S/L farmer would probably be more or less fine, mostly because there's a lot of S/L gunfire in the average mission, but also partially because the attack tags heavily favor those 2 defense types (so a lot of hybrid typed attacks are deflected, even though a lot of them should really only be considered as the other damage type).  This is getting addressed in the upcoming page, so that particular advantage won't be there much longer.

 

 

On 7/22/2022 at 2:00 PM, Akisan said:

the enemies are so precisely weakened, that you don't have to invest in balanced defenses, resistances or even have much HP recovery, just damage and more damage.

[roleki]

1 hour ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Yeah, I should have stopped reading right there because the two situations are in no way comparable - HC doesn't have what Live did:  Untold oceans of inf sloshing about from three years of accumulation with no place to spend it.  (Not to mention a zero-to-sixty surge in demand.)

Your conclusions are thus, generously put, questionable.

 

Emmert is quoted as saying, at its peak, CoH had 180,000 distinct accounts.  NOT concurrent.  Total, distinct accounts.  As of March of 2020, HC had 159,537 distinct accounts... not that far off the pace of Live, and, that's less than one year of data.  So we're not talking apples and oranges, we're talking navel oranges and valencia oranges.

 

As I noted before, we know that /Fiery Aura Brutes logged 14,007,639 hours of time.  Let's generously assume that only half of those hours were spent farming in an environment that encouraged doing so.  That's 7,003,819 hours, give or take.  Assume they sucked at Fire Farming, and only brought in 5M inf an hour.  That still translates to 35,019,095,000,000 inf. 

 

That's 35 trillion.  

 

Enough to buy 4,669,212 LotG at 7.5M apiece, enough to equip 933,842 characters with 5x LotG%. 

 

Me, I bring in about 22M an hour farming, and I'm not even trying hard.  Half the /Fiery Aura Brute hours, making half what I make, would result in 77TN influence.

And you know it was more than that. 

 

You are absolutely correct, we will never know how much inf was sitting in the wells on Live, but we can make fairly accurate guesstimates of what *just* the Fire Farmers were sitting on in HC... 28 months ago, and I will bet both our sets of nuts that there wasn't 77TN+ sitting around on Live, because there was no use to farm for inf on Live until there suddenly was.

[Coyotedancer]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

 

be nice to @Bionic_Flea

 

it could easily be flipped "Do we actually have any dev-provided data mined proof that "An overwhelming majority of game hours is NOT spent in AE farms"?

 

they promised Dev Diaries, we may get a glimpse.

 

Flea is the one making the claim... It's on him to back that claim up with something more substantial than an assumption if he really wants to have a serious discussion.

[Bionic_Flea]

We can't talk about stuff if I can't prove it in a court of law?

 

Come on.  How can I supply evidence I don't have?

 

Or are you just tired of reading what I type and want me to be quiet and go away?

 

[BlackSpectre]

Personally, I didn't have any problem with the Dev's proposed changes to AE. I get more than enough empyrean merits farming incarnate trials. So much so, that when I run out of threads to craft incarnate powers, I use my emp merits and convert them to threads.  So the loss of emp merits or threads would not have impacted me in the slightest.

 

The one thing I use the AE for concerning incarnates the Devs left alone... earning veteran XP to unlock incarnate ability slots. It takes longer to unlock all the abilities than it does to gather all the resources to make the abilities. Besides, my first incarnate ability is always a Lore pet so that I can be more useful while tagging along on entry level incarnate trials (especially BAF). 

 

It takes far too long to unlock the Lore slot the normal way, so once they reach level 50, I take every toon into the AE and farm XP for 30 min to unlock Lore. And this ability the Devs left alone. Thankfully. But now I guess it's moot, and not a big deal either way.

 

*****************************************

 

Oddly, I tend to avoid the AE in general. For some reason, whether or not a story is part of the "official" lore turns out to be important for me. It's the same thing that happens in many time travel movies... lots of trials and tribulations, but in the end it never happened and doesn't matter. Meh.   

 

[JJDrakken]

5 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

This would get a number of people to leave the game. Considering the current trend in population size, I don't think you want to pour gas on it.

 

That's a theory, until we see it happen we won't know.  They could always take one low pop servers that most folks bounced out of.  Test it there, announce X server is going go a month(s) with AE XP shut off, but cash on, with XP spotlight on created content, changing every month.

 

See what happens. I think could be a positive thing, that's just my thought. Just like all drone farmers wouldn't want that and can move to servers that do have it on.  That way they can test it out.  I know Indom use to be a pretty active server, till the Unofficial PvP tag got put on it, then everyone for most part bailed(I and my SG did, cuz we already know how PvP nearly F'd up CoH, till power split happened), hell even the PvP crowd did, cuz now I'm seeing it folks advertise PvP stuff on LFG there.

[lemming]

3 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

So we're making an assumption that AE farming is consuming the entire City...

This is just a bit of info from Number 6 about moving AE out of atlas.

 

Reducing lag in starter zones is another side benefit. AE is badly implemented and horrendous with the amount it causes. It used to be worse -- we fixed a number of the really bad synchronous waits that could stall the whole zone, but it's still a bear when heavily used.

[SwitchFade]

Good eve. This is for... Well, several posters, as there is a good deal of.. erm... Not-quite-rightness going on here in.

 

I have to say, to the chagrin and delight of many...

 

I'm sorry, that's not how economics works.

 

Aren't you glad?!

 

On a tangent, all goods in this economy are normal and substitutable; it doesn't matter that a level 50 defense io stops at 30, once catalyzed, it can convert to any defense io. This applies to recipes, craft the 50, catalyze and convert. Remember, we're not discussing cost of the good itself versus the conversion, merely that ALL goods here are normal and substitutable, thus ALL goods are available

 

Additionally, there is a ceiling on the cost of all io at 100 merits. ALL goods have a price ceiling that they will never exceed, due to all goods being normal and substitutable and that all goods have an inherent price ceiling.

 

Further, all necessary raw materials also have a ceiling, at their respective seeded levels per rarity tier. All inputs to a finished good thusly cannot exceed a certain price.

 

In such an economy, the one factor that will determine whether or not the price for a good AT ALL points along the demand curve increases, is inflation; where each value of a unit of currency decreases, the commensurate cost of ANY good increases, up to the ceiling.

 

You will pay no more than ceiling price, but should inflation run rampant and unchecked, you WILL end up paying the highest possible price, up to the ceiling, due to the shift. Note, this does not mean you will always pay the ceiling price, but the equilibrium price, will sit much nearer the ceiling.

 

And since someone (or two) brought it up, AE generates currency over time that is MAGNITUDES greater than any other content, not just a bit, or even double. That, my friends, is rampant inflation.

 

And by the way, I'm glad someone ELSE brought up live, which is direct proof concerning inflation, only there you paid the maximum possible price the market would determine, as there was NO ceiling.

 

Not my fault people were bandying about economics 🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪

[UltraAlt]

10 hours ago, zenijos10 said:

I’m not sure fun is the primary reason for doing it.

 

I don't think it is "fun".

I think it's just for the easy-button power-leveling. Not even teaming. Just soaking up xp.

 

11 hours ago, zenijos10 said:

getting to 50 is busy work

 

/e facepalm

 

Getting to 50 by actually playing the game is actually playing the game.

 

11 hours ago, zenijos10 said:

Instead of fun, I would say door sitting creates accomplishment

 

This is the odd kind of a sense of accomplishment as you do nothing to get a reward.

 

11 hours ago, zenijos10 said:

filling out the waiver and watching the training video before going paragliding

 

wow. 

I guess  you are playing an entirely different game than I am playing.

 

11 hours ago, zenijos10 said:

One could argue that getting to 50 by door sitting is not a real accomplishment,

 

There is no argument about it.

Door sitting to get to 50 is in no way an accomplishment.

You did nothing to gain it other than simply being logged into the game and sitting at a door.

It's the "I win" button with a timer on it.

 

11 hours ago, zenijos10 said:

at least not compared to leveling the old fashioned way.

 

By like actually playing the game content?! What?

 

11 hours ago, zenijos10 said:

 If one’s goal is to collect 50s then doorsitting makes a lot of sense compared to playing content the old fashioned way.

 

That is no accomplishment.

The stuffing those 50's are filled with is doorsitting.

Nothing was earned. Nothing was fought for. ... but, yeah, you don't have to log in ever in order to keep your character name.

[Troo]

7 hours ago, Ukase said:

a chap named @payload told me about afk-farming and opened my eyes.

 

and the source.. "the sum of all evils" is discovered!

[Troo]

I jest of course

[zenijos10]

19 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

wow. 

I guess  you are playing an entirely different game than I am playing.

 

 I play the same game, differently, and often for different reasons.

[roleki]

57 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Good eve. This is for... Well, several posters, as there is a good deal of.. erm... Not-quite-rightness going on here in.

 

I have to say, to the chagrin and delight of many...

 

I'm sorry, that's not how economics works.

 

Aren't you glad?!

 

On a tangent, all goods in this economy are normal and substitutable; it doesn't matter that a level 50 defense io stops at 30, once catalyzed, it can convert to any defense io. This applies to recipes, craft the 50, catalyze and convert. Remember, we're not discussing cost of the good itself versus the conversion, merely that ALL goods here are normal and substitutable, thus ALL goods are available

 

Additionally, there is a ceiling on the cost of all io at 100 merits. ALL goods have a price ceiling that they will never exceed, due to all goods being normal and substitutable and that all goods have an inherent price ceiling.

 

Further, all necessary raw materials also have a ceiling, at their respective seeded levels per rarity tier. All inputs to a finished good thusly cannot exceed a certain price.

 

In such an economy, the one factor that will determine whether or not the price for a good AT ALL points along the demand curve increases, is inflation; where each value of a unit of currency decreases, the commensurate cost of ANY good increases, up to the ceiling.

 

You will pay no more than ceiling price, but should inflation run rampant and unchecked, you WILL end up paying the highest possible price, up to the ceiling, due to the shift. Note, this does not mean you will always pay the ceiling price, but the equilibrium price, will sit much nearer the ceiling.

 

And since someone (or two) brought it up, AE generates currency over time that is MAGNITUDES greater than any other content, not just a bit, or even double. That, my friends, is rampant inflation.

 

And by the way, I'm glad someone ELSE brought up live, which is direct proof concerning inflation, only there you paid the maximum possible price the market would determine, as there was NO ceiling.

 

Not my fault people were bandying about economics 🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪

 

Show me the inflation.  

[Excraft]

On 7/19/2022 at 3:04 AM, MoonSheep said:

what a shame - an opportunity to introduce slight and minor change to begin re-balancing the game was rolled back as the devs were scared off by a shrieking mob of infants

 

Says the shrieking infant whining crying and stomping their little feet in a hissy fit because nobody wants to play with them.  Oh the irony. 

[UltraAlt]

6 hours ago, Ukase said:

But, the thing is - how is it not fun to get that xp when you're a lowbie, don't have but a few attacks?

 

It's fun to ding.

But dinging when you are actually running content is a much bigger thrill then getting your 20th ding for sitting around doing nothing.

 

6 hours ago, Ukase said:

It may not suit you. I certainly get no joy out of it, which is why I do that kind of thing by myself, afk-style. 

 

And so it sounds like no fun.

But I don't understand why you do that if it is not fun.

Oh, I see, you aren't actually playing so it makes no difference.

You aren't even actually playing the game to lock your character name.

 

 

[UltraAlt]

4 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

You dont get to define fun.

 

Who is defining "fun"?

I asked "how is that "fun"?"

 

You are simply being argumentative.

You clearly haven't read what I have written.

 

I can only assume that you feel attacked by my posts but lack the ability to explain what is "fun" about doorsitting for you and, therefore, have to go off on tangents and attack me in order to obfuscate that fact.

[Doc_Scorpion]

3 hours ago, roleki said:

Emmert is quoted as saying, at its peak, CoH had 180,000 distinct accounts.  NOT concurrent.  Total, distinct accounts.  As of March of 2020, HC had 159,537 distinct accounts... not that far off the pace of Live, and, that's less than one year of data.  So we're not talking apples and oranges, we're talking navel oranges and valencia oranges.

*facepalm*  Distinct accounts are a virtually irrelevant metric.  What matters is accumulated player hours, and over the course of three years (from launch to I9 release) - there's no doubt in the mind of anyone that HC over the equivalent period (public opening to now) has a vanishingly small fraction of the active population compared to Live.

 

3 hours ago, roleki said:

I will bet both our sets of nuts that there wasn't 77TN+ sitting around on Live, because there was no use to farm for inf on Live until there suddenly was.

*facepalm*  They didn't need to farm to push prices to the moon when I9 dropped.  They jumped the very first day because they had oceans of Inf accumulated across three years of normal gameplay.  They (Live) also had something else HC didn't/doesn't - an enormous number of existing characters, all of whose players wanted to get their characters into the IO "game" all at once.

Then Inf farming began in earnest.  (They already farmed for XP and badges.)

HC also has things ameliorating prices that Live didn't.  On Live, converters lagged the introduction of IO's by almost five years.  On HC, they've been here since Day One.  On Live, salvage was never seeded to hold down prices.  On HC, that's been a feature since Day One.  On Live they didn't "bucket" items on the market.  On HC, that's been a feature since Day One.

Live and Homecoming - economically speaking, apples and the thing least like apples you can imagine.