Not sure what I am missing

[Coyotedancer]

Unlike Tsoo Sorcerers, they do tend to stay pretty close when they go popping around. That got them in trouble in Kestrel and Cardinal's Sister Valeria run yesterday. 

 

Grey Kestrel the DB Scrapper: "Oh look. It's a surgeon... He dies first."

 

*gets stabby* 

 

Surgeon: "Ha ha! I can port away and be safe from your sharp, pointy blades, strange winged woman from the future!"

 

*BAMFS*

 

*Reappears a small distance down the hall*

 

Red Cardinal, Kes' Mu Adept partner: "Yeeeeeah.... About that. You're still in range, bro."

 

*zarks the crap out of the poor surgeon*

 

It was good fun.

'Even better when he decided to Shackle them.  😆

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Coyotedancer

[InvaderStych]

5 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Unlike Tsoo Sorcerers, they do tend to stay pretty close when they go popping around.

 

Tsoo Sorc's use regular Teleport with much longer range than CT.  Surgeons are likely limited to 100' as the default range of CT.  They seem to rarely go further than the max range of their abilities though.

[ZemX]

8 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I have had issues with Dark in large team settings.  Memorably on a shadow shard TF in a “crossroads” of a cave map.  Those eyeballs alert everyone.  Anytime you have rikti,eyeballs, those damn nemesis captains or similar tour stealth is gone.  Your auras only work on what is right near you.  And with a now effectively unlimited agro cap any resistance armor (and i do build for very very high values) will inevitably implode under the pressure.  When a submarine goes below crush depth there is only one scientific outcome.  This change negates the very slim margin that Dark Armor relied on to be effective.  Sad.  Will move on 

 

Prior to the patch, in a team setting, that aggro should have spilled onto your teammates and it still should.  Is this not how it's working? 

[KaizenSoze]

1 hour ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Incarnate level Surgeons use Combat Teleport with impunity and demonstrate intelligence in where they decide to port off to.¹

 

It.

 

Is.

 

Glorious.

 

So glad we're actually seeing stuff like this more and more instead of just the same old murder-balls.

 

(edit)

 

1 - I found they will often port to a spot where they maintain LOS on their buff/heal targets but are still sort of "lurking just around that corner." Seek them there or just macro CT/Jaunt to target and follow them when they port.

They make excellent pets when confused.

[Outrider_01]

I don't think you are missing anything....

 

NPCs now don't miss as often 🤔🧐

 

Ok that was dumb. Exit stage left

[KC4800]

3 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Incarnate level Surgeons use Combat Teleport with impunity and demonstrate intelligence in where they decide to port off to.¹

 

It.

 

Is.

 

Glorious.

 

So glad we're actually seeing stuff like this more and more instead of just the same old murder-balls.

 

(edit)

 

1 - I found they will often port to a spot where they maintain LOS on their buff/heal targets but are still sort of "lurking just around that corner." Seek them there or just macro CT/Jaunt to target and follow them when they port.

Or...they TP into an un-aggroed group and still Heal Other the guy you're trying to kill so you have to find him and deal with him, which means another Healer sees you and starts healing and the domino effect starts. Mind you, you still get no XP or inf for killing that healer.

[biostem]

6 hours ago, Ukase said:

I suppose it would depend on what you are trying to demonstrate. Sitting in an AE fire farm without armor isn't going to show much at all, because without the armor, you will certainly be defeated within seconds. And that wouldn't tell me what I want to know.

Who said to use a farm?  I said to use a radio mission set to +0/x1 or +1/x1 if you have a level shift.  Further whether you find trying to get a log "scary" is immaterial to the discussion - if you are asserting that something is wrong/off/not working correctly, then it is incumbent upon you to "bring the receipts", as it were...

Edited August 24, 2022 by biostem

[InvaderStych]

6 minutes ago, KC4800 said:

Mind you, you still get no XP or inf for killing that healer.

 

They have no attacks.  If they gave XP a player could fill an AE farm with them and gain rewards with zero risk.  Pretty sure all mobs without attacks are the same way.

[KC4800]

1 minute ago, InvaderStych said:

 

They have no attacks.  If they gave XP a player could fill an AE farm with them and gain rewards with zero risk.  Pretty sure all mobs without attacks are the same way.

I knew there was a reason. I don't want to sound like I want anything changed. I like that we have a new challenge. Tactics, just have to get my tactics down. I'll still punch them in the face...but when they least expect it.

[Ukase]

8 minutes ago, biostem said:

Who said to use a farm?  I said to use a radio mission set to +0/x1 or +1/x1 if you have a level shift.  Further whether you find trying to get a log "scary" is immaterial to the discussion - if you are asserting that something is wrong/off/not working correctly, then it is incumbent upon you to "bring the receipts", as it were...

1. It is NOT incumbent upon me to do anything. Why would you say that? Some folks have a clear idea of the math behind the data. I could spend a lot of time on it and find a way to express it so others could understand it, but that's not how I wish to spend my time. (at least, I'd like to think I could do it.) 
2. I said a farm, because I may have mistakenly assumed that the comment about 90% resist was in reference to a farmer. My mistake. 

We cannot expect everyone with an issue to "bring the receipts", because most have no idea what a valid "receipt" would look like. I suspect most folks are told what the desired defensive and resistance stats are, perhaps copy a build from the forums or a friend, and generally have never even looked at the combat log. To expect someone who's actually coming to the boards to ask questions to "bring the receipts" because they don't understand the changes is a bit silly. If they have the knowledge to "bring the receipt", they would have looked at the receipts in the first place and either explained the discrepancy between what was supposed to be changed, and what actually changed or resolve the problem by their own analysis. 

We are not all Arcana, capable of such things. Nor should anyone expect it of any player. 

[Luminara]

12 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

If they gave XP a player could fill an AE farm with them and gain rewards with zero risk.

 

I don't know... I suspect just about every player alive would be at risk of head explodey if they encountered nothing but spawns of healers healing each other, making them nearly impossible to defeat.  I know I'd have a serious meltdown.  They'd probably hear my screams at the most distant point in the universe.

[PeregrineFalcon]

15 minutes ago, Luminara said:

They'd probably hear my screams at the most distant point in the universe.

 

 

🤣

[InvaderStych]

18 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I don't know...

 

I mean, me either.  Sure they'd spam heals and buffs, OTOH they're minions that can be insta-jibbed with a wide variety of attacks so ... 🤷‍♂️

 

Just meant to convey that they're consistent with mobs that lack attacks/damage in being 0 xp defeats. 🍻

[biostem]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

1. It is NOT incumbent upon me to do anything. Why would you say that? Some folks have a clear idea of the math behind the data. I could spend a lot of time on it and find a way to express it so others could understand it, but that's not how I wish to spend my time. (at least, I'd like to think I could do it.) 
2. I said a farm, because I may have mistakenly assumed that the comment about 90% resist was in reference to a farmer. My mistake. 

We cannot expect everyone with an issue to "bring the receipts", because most have no idea what a valid "receipt" would look like. I suspect most folks are told what the desired defensive and resistance stats are, perhaps copy a build from the forums or a friend, and generally have never even looked at the combat log. To expect someone who's actually coming to the boards to ask questions to "bring the receipts" because they don't understand the changes is a bit silly. If they have the knowledge to "bring the receipt", they would have looked at the receipts in the first place and either explained the discrepancy between what was supposed to be changed, and what actually changed or resolve the problem by their own analysis. 

We are not all Arcana, capable of such things. Nor should anyone expect it of any player. 

Here's the problem - if you make a claim that something is wrong/broken, we need more than just your hearsay.  You, of course, can post whatever you want, but all you're gonna get with unverified claims is pushback and theorycrafting.  If you *really* want to see an issue get addressed, bring the data.  If not, then carry on as you were...

 

Let me give you a fairly simple test to conduct:  Run a PI council set at your level and for 1 player.  Clear a group except for one of the regular soldiers.  Let them attack you with all your armors on, then turn them off.  Now compare the results.  If you have 50% s/l resistance, then an attack that does 50 w/ your armors on should deal about 100 with them off.  If there's significant difference, then something may in fact be off.  No one is asking for extensive number crunching or intimate knowledge of the game's backend calculations...

Edited August 24, 2022 by biostem

[UltraAlt]

14 hours ago, Lines said:

The change UltraAlt linked shouldn't impact what you're describing.

 

Depends upon what kind of resistance that 90% is and what enemies they are fighting.

[Snarky]

4 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Prior to the patch, in a team setting, that aggro should have spilled onto your teammates and it still should.  Is this not how it's working? 

Not exactly.  A Brutes taunt aura is pretty extreme.  I tried to hold the one cave crossroads mentioned to “save” a teammate.  I took all the agro and it was a short lived safe zone.  
 

From what I read above it indicates the agro cap has been lifted in some manner, whereas before 17 was it.  Which can still be enough to put down a Tank or Brute not built specifically for that environment.  But with more opportunities for enemies to take shots at you armor becomes less and less effective.  Turning the game into a stealth or control situation.  When Fire Farmers start talking about receiving more damage from the same mobs the rest of us should realize our mitigation just took a knee to the nuts

Edited August 24, 2022 by Snarky

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, biostem said:

Here's the problem - if you make a claim that something is wrong/broken, we need more than just your hearsay.  You, of course, can post whatever you want, but all you're gonna get with unverified claims is pushback and theorycrafting.  If you *really* want to see an issue get addressed, bring the data.  If not, then carry on as you were...

 

Let me give you a fairly simple test to conduct:  Run a PI council set at your level and for 1 player.  Clear a group except for one of the regular soldiers.  Let them attack you with all your armors on, then turn them off.  Now compare the results.  If you have 50% s/l resistance, then an attack that does 50 w/ your armors on should deal about 100 with them off.  If there's significant difference, then something may in fact be off.  No one is asking for extensive number crunching or intimate knowledge of the game's backend calculations...

I see you trying to be helpful. 
The problem is - I wasn't the one who said there was a problem. I was the one who said if folks have a problem, most folks have no idea how to determine if it's a user error (bad build/misunderstanding/etc) or something legit wrong with how things are supposed to work. It's just not intuitive to do what you're so helpfully describing. 



 

[biostem]

14 minutes ago, Ukase said:

It's just not intuitive to do what you're so helpfully describing. 

Yeah... gathering information or taking the steps in order to identify and/or resolve a problem is not usually intuitive...  *** shrugs ***

[Techwright]

7 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

I don't know... I suspect just about every player alive would be at risk of head explodey if they encountered nothing but spawns of healers healing each other, making them nearly impossible to defeat.  I know I'd have a serious meltdown.  They'd probably hear my screams at the most distant point in the universe.

You just described my 2005 pug team's 3-hour ordeal attacking a large, multi-leveled room full...FULL... of unnerfed Tsoo sorc's.  Worst. room. EVAH!

[ZemX]

18 hours ago, Snarky said:

From what I read above it indicates the agro cap has been lifted in some manner, whereas before 17 was it.

 

The cap is still 17.  The "in some manner" is this:  Once past the aggro cap, mobs can still stand and shoot you from range if they are in-range of you but they won't pursue, not even right around a corner to re-establish LOS.  But this behavior will still only occur if there's no one else on their threat list.  On a team, other teammates that have aggroed those same mobs will be attacked instead as normal.  In other words, same way it worked before the patch.  Doesn't matter if you've taunted the mobs or not.  You can still only keep 17 max and the rest will attack teammates.

 

18 hours ago, Snarky said:

When Fire Farmers start talking about receiving more damage from the same mobs the rest of us should realize our mitigation just took a knee to the nuts

 

Only if we're doing what those Fire Farmers are doing, which is aggroing multiple spawns solo, probably.  This is definitely a change any soloist, farmer or not, should pay some attention to because they can't just rely on the aggro cap to limit incoming fire while they whittle away a huge mass of enemies.  I suppose on a team you could still run afoul of this change if you run ahead of the team to pull multiple groups.  If nobody else on the team is in aggro range, you're going to get all the incoming fire.

[KaizenSoze]

34 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Only if we're doing what those Fire Farmers are doing, which is aggroing multiple spawns solo, probably.  This is definitely a change any soloist, farmer or not, should pay some attention to because they can't just rely on the aggro cap to limit incoming fire while they whittle away a huge mass of enemies.  I suppose on a team you could still run afoul of this change if you run ahead of the team to pull multiple groups.  If nobody else on the team is in aggro range, you're going to get all the incoming fire.

I have seen this happen occasionally. Someone charges ahead and catches two groups of alpha.

[Snarky]

5 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

The cap is still 17.  The "in some manner" is this:  Once past the aggro cap, mobs can still stand and shoot you from range if they are in-range of you but they won't pursue, not even right around a corner to re-establish LOS.  But this behavior will still only occur if there's no one else on their threat list.  On a team, other teammates that have aggroed those same mobs will be attacked instead as normal.  In other words, same way it worked before the patch.  Doesn't matter if you've taunted the mobs or not.  You can still only keep 17 max and the rest will attack teammates.

 

 

Only if we're doing what those Fire Farmers are doing, which is aggroing multiple spawns solo, probably.  This is definitely a change any soloist, farmer or not, should pay some attention to because they can't just rely on the aggro cap to limit incoming fire while they whittle away a huge mass of enemies.  I suppose on a team you could still run afoul of this change if you run ahead of the team to pull multiple groups.  If nobody else on the team is in aggro range, you're going to get all the incoming fire.

Brutes have ALWAYS tried to agro as many as possible without caring which spawns are tagged.  So the agro cap is now 17+Infinite ranged attacks that see you. This is a real world change for Tanks and Brutes.  
 

Now, realistically the rule was arbitrary and never made sense.  But it was the world we learned to build to.   I for one am pretty much out.   I was considering a few more projects but my favorite archetype has just taken another nerf in a very long line of losses.  No wins in sight.  I will plink away once a week or so on a Blaster with my SG.  But I am pretty much calling it

[Crysis]

On 8/24/2022 at 11:13 AM, KaizenSoze said:

They make excellent pets when confused.

yup did that repeatedly on Rugged ITS last night.

[TheZag]

The patch notes.  You are missing the patch notes.

 

[High_Beam]

What I am trying to figure out in this conversation paired with what the patch notes say, is if there is this "everything aggro's now" deal is the concept of an aggro cap gone and secondly, does that mean taking and/or using Taunt (or its analogs) is essentially rendered obsolete now?  I am still new to melee in the game (always preferred range) and have zero (zero) level 50 melee types yet (I am close, I promise).