Sins of the Devs are visited upon the players

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 minute ago, battlewraith said:

But see, honestly, that's complete bullshit. I recognize that you can get rich with very little difficulty in this game. But it takes effort. Not strenuous "I'm digging a ditch" effort. Tedious, time wasting effort. Sorting items. Converting things. The types of activities that are the worst aspects imo of the user interface. Exactly the sort of crap that I play a game to avoid doing. 

 

So find a new game? Sure. But maybe instead of just writing off players like me, maybe the community and the developers should realize that some people have strayed from what this game was actually about and have bought into this "inf tycoon" market mentality.

 

I'm not speaking for either the community or the developers.  I will give 20mm inf to any one who asks for it.  That's no secret.  I have written literally dozens of guides about how to extract inf from the market and I tell anyone who will listen.  That is also no secret.  There is no gatekeeping here other than you just not giving a rat's ass.

 

Maybe YOU should realize that if you choose not to take the easy path, that the community or the developers are under no obligation to show up on their knees at your doorstep giving you whatever you want for whatever it is you are willing to put into it, which is apparently nothing.

[The_Warpact]

10 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 the community and the developers should realize that some people have strayed from what this game was actually about and have bought into this "inf tycoon" market mentality.

Ah but there's the disconnect, this isn't Live, this is the HC teams vision. While you might not like it or it's your interpretation you have to realize games like that thrive because of that type of mechanic.

Look at any game it's a function of the game and it excels especially app games with hundreds of thousands or millions of subs.

 

Not condoning anything just pointing this out.

[Erratic1]

29 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

It sounds like both of you might want to find a new game?  You both argue that you don't want things to be trivial nor that you are entitled to everything.  But it is actually trivial to make items trivial to achieve and you can get everything with almost no effort in this game.  That's my opinion, and yours certainly may differ.  Maybe I'm playing by a different set of rules?

 

A lot of your trivial is doing stuff I do not enjoy. I have nothing against AE farmers but farming, to me, is more boring than watching paint dry. And that before we talk second accounting to help powerlevel my characters while I farm as what I enjoy is doing the missions and playing up the character. 

 

You have already admitted in this thread to seeing the game from only one vantage point. People play the game for a variety of reasons. This is a good thing. That they do not follow your path may be inefficient but there is no reason a priori your method being easy means every other method should bear an increase in difficulty.

[Veracor]

2 hours ago, Astralock said:

FWIW, I know that all Blasters, all Masterminds, and all Warshades hard mode ASFs (at either 3* or 4*), have been done.  I wouldn't recommend it, but if you have the right builds and the right players, it can be and has been done.  You're just much, much better off with a variety in your team as that is what the content has been designed for.

 

Pretty much this.  SSR, Burk, and I finished a meme run of 4-star ITF yesterday with 8 Masterminds (We multiboxed it for better control over what was going on).  It took 4.5 hours of mistakes and wipes, but we learned a lot and it would probably be close to the 3 hour mark if we tried it again.

 

But yeah, even a slight amount of variety (such as 7 MMs and 1 Tanker/Brute) would have greatly helped in rounding the team out.

[roleki]

11 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

But see, honestly, that's complete bullshit. I recognize that you can get rich with very little difficulty in this game. But it takes effort. Not strenuous "I'm digging a ditch" effort. Tedious, time wasting effort. Sorting items. Converting things. The types of activities that are the worst aspects imo of the user interface. Exactly the sort of crap that I play a game to avoid doing. 

 

So find a new game? Sure. But maybe instead of just writing off players like me, maybe the community and the developers should realize that some people have strayed from what this game was actually about and have bought into this "inf tycoon" market mentality.

 

Thing is, you can absolutely just craft what you need without it turning into a full-time job utterly replacing any other in-game activity. 

 

Yes, it's faster to just pay retail, and it's more lucrative to just play market PvP,  but there IS a middle ground where you spend a few minutes, get what you need, and go about your business.   Literally a couple minutes a night, if that.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Maybe YOU should realize that if you choose not to take the easy path, that the community or the developers are under no obligation to show up on their knees at your doorstep giving you whatever you want for whatever it is you are willing to put into it, which is apparently nothing.

 

All I want from YOU and the people like you is to stfu with notion that "the easy path" is the solution to every problem. I don't want your money and I've paid for everything I've got, just like anyone else. The fact that I don't want to rely on the market doesn't mean I'm willing to put nothing into it. It just means that I still have a vision where this game isn't about the market. You like to do that, knock yourself out Ritchie Rich. But as long as we can still voice opinions, I'm not the only one around that never found that aspect of gameplay appealing and wants to keep it as optional as possible--not something that people are expected to do to any large degree.

[scottocamp]

I never played a MMO before City of Heroes.  My two boys got me hooked.  I had no idea a game could be so fun.  When City of Heroes closed down I found myself rather devastated.  I tried SWTOR thinking it might fill the void.  But I found the whole experience rather horrible.  People would yell obscenities at me during raids if I made any errors, I was booted from raid teams more often than I finished them, power customization was so minimal as to be laughable, everyone looked mostly the same as everyone else (Jedi warriors in brown capes leaping around everywhere), and the community was wildly toxic on a good day.  The death blow was after finally getting my main painstakingly fully geared, the level cap bumped up and all the gear became worthless.  I thought maybe it was just SWTOR but came to realize it was the basic model for most such games.

Once COH returned I was delighted to find it was even more accessible and even more solo friendly.  On Live I mostly stuck with Scrappers because the time investment in fully slotting a toon was rather significant and I felt nervous experimenting with other AT’s or odd power combinations.  But now I have been having a blast trying out every AT and powers I had never used on Live.  Defenders and Night Widows are a revelation for me!  Homecoming has been *much* more fun than Live.

So place me firmly in the camp of “Please don’t replicate the WOW model”.  I understand a great many folks like that model.  I was clearly in the minority at SWTOR.  And I recognize that many players would like COH to be more like a “real” game.  But COH is a remarkable game as is - in my opinion.

Even so, I would like to go on record as saying I think the development team has done a good job straddling the fence and trying to keep both warring tribes of raid enthusiasts and sandbox players happy.  I personally think it is a wonderful idea to reward raid enthusiasts with vanity items.  Most of these folks seem to do it for the challenge and the glory.  So why not give them the cosmetic status to reflect their accomplishments.  If there is a “lifespan of the sun” slow path to achieving the same status that seems rather generous.  Maybe even a bit unfairly tilted toward sandbox players who will never touch this content.  My concern is not adding hard mode raids or rewarding folks for completing such raids.  My concern is the mindset that easy sandbox progression and sandbox play is incompatible with a “real” game filled with raids.  It seems possible that the role-playing dabblers and the hardcore maniacs can both coexist.  What I find alarming is the oft-stated zero sum approach that allowing sandbox play must come at the expense of serious gaming and/or serious gaming options will necessitate restrictions and added hurdles for sandbox play.  But this seems to be coming mostly from forum posters and not from the development staff.  The developers seem to be trying to navigate a middle ground.

The greatest heartburn seems to revolve around how much “struggle” should be required to fully level.  For those seeking glory and status a cakewalk to 50 is unsatisfying.  For sandboxers the leveling process is by and large tedium.  Maintaining an easy path to 50 but allowing raiders post 50 challenge and cosmetic rewards seems an excellent compromise to me.

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, Veracor said:

 

Pretty much this.  SSR, Burk, and I finished a meme run of 4-star ITF yesterday with 8 Masterminds (We multiboxed it for better control over what was going on).  It took 4.5 hours of mistakes and wipes, but we learned a lot and it would probably be close to the 3 hour mark if we tried it again.

 

But yeah, even a slight amount of variety (such as 7 MMs and 1 Tanker/Brute) would have greatly helped in rounding the team out.

 

I wouldn't call that a good dynamic or something to reach for. And I multibox as well, and I think it would be much more difficult with 8 different MM players than 3 multiboxers. But Number Six said they were aware of it and that MM's in harder content are on the radar to get looked at, which is all many of us really wanted.

[Yomo Kimyata]

3 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

 

You have already admitted in this thread to seeing the game from only one vantage point. People play the game for a variety of reasons. This is a good thing. That they do not follow your path may be inefficient but there is no reason a priori your method being easy means every other method should bear an increase in difficulty.

 

I actually see things from many many vantage points.  The advantage, as I see it, is that I've done a pretty good job at identifying what the gates are and trying to break them down so everyone can benefit.  If your vantage point is, well, they introduced something new, and I WANT IT, but I don't want it badly enough to do what they want me to do, that's great!  That's what makes economics work. 

[UltraAlt]

3 hours ago, seebs said:

Neither of those creates influence.

 

If if something is on the market (seeded) and I buy it, resell it, and turn a profit - it quite certainly did add the influence to the market.

Without that product being seeded, I would not have it to sell. The product itself is worth influence the same as any other product put on the market is worth influence.

Just because a player needs to generate influence to buy the thing, doesn't mean that the market item doesn't have an influence value inherent to itself.

 

Same goes with the market changing a crafted enhancement to an attuned. No catalyst is needed. The market catalyzes the enhancement itself, and this certainly has an influence value. That influence value was added to the market by that market operation.

 

3 hours ago, seebs said:

There is an amount of influence in the game, which is the sum of all the influence held by all the players, global emails, and so on.

 

And there is amount of value in the Market based on items that are available for sale and customer bids in the market.

 

The total value of the Market is the value of the items posted in the Market regardless if the Market items are posted by players or seeded.

 

3 hours ago, seebs said:

Transforming enhancements doesn't change the amount of influence players have.

 

By reducing the cost of the item needing otherwise needing to be catalyzed that is quite obviously changing the influence cost.

 

My point isn't about how much influence players have, but the inherent influence added to the market by seeding and market self-catalyzing enhancements.

Some players, maybe many, can't figure out how to leverage that inherent influence out of the system.

 

It is probably simpler for some to stick to farming.

 

[Grouchybeast]

4 hours ago, Neiska said:

But there is making hard content, and then there is making content that discourages including certain playstyles, ATs, and so on. Now I am not expecting them to make it so a merc/empath MM can finish a 4 star, but they can certainly make a few tweaks so it isn't so "do or die" on 3-4 star difficulty too, which it currently is.

 

The devs have already provided an easier version of level 3 and 4 hard mode: level 1 and 2 hard mode.  You can choose to play them right now.  Just as the people who enjoy playing level 3 and 4 hard mode can enjoy playing them right now.  There's nothing wrong with all content not being to the taste of all players.  If some people are picky about teams, that's their prerogative, there's literally nothing stopping you loading up your MM and forming a 4 star team.

 

As to you other point: nothing about farming has been removed.  The rewards have been adjusted a couple of times, but AE farming is still there.  AE PLing is still there.  Fire farming is still there.  AFK farming is even still there!  All farming playstyles are still fully supported by the game.

[roleki]

2 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

As to you other point: nothing about farming has been removed.  The rewards have been adjusted a couple of times, but AE farming is still there.  AE PLing is still there.  Fire farming is still there.  AFK farming is even still there!  All farming playstyles are still fully supported by the game.

 

Yeah, guys, farming just gets shittier and shittier every time the devs release an update, nothing to worry about!  You can still do it!   Why all the complaints?  Ingrates!

[Songseven]

@scottocamp

what a lovely and refreshing post!

[Neiska]

21 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

 

The devs have already provided an easier version of level 3 and 4 hard mode: level 1 and 2 hard mode.  You can choose to play them right now.  Just as the people who enjoy playing level 3 and 4 hard mode can enjoy playing them right now.  There's nothing wrong with all content not being to the taste of all players.  If some people are picky about teams, that's their prerogative, there's literally nothing stopping you loading up your MM and forming a 4 star team.

 

As to you other point: nothing about farming has been removed.  The rewards have been adjusted a couple of times, but AE farming is still there.  AE PLing is still there.  Fire farming is still there.  AFK farming is even still there!  All farming playstyles are still fully supported by the game.

 

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me. I have said in other posts that I like the niches. Its good we have challenging content. I only take issue that some ATs aren't up to the task or are undesired. Please don't mistake that as a cry to nerf the hard modes. If I had it my way, the ATs that are struggling would be brought up to par, or were at least viable on the hardest difficulties. A tall request, I know, given we have an all-volunteer staff. But some of them stumble on plain +4/8 content as it is, let alone incarnate, ITFs and other activities.

 

And I never stated farming was removed? I only pointed out that there were calls for its removal before on the forums.

 

If I wasn't clear enough, then I ask your pardon. But I do hope that you agree that weaker ATs being looked at and updated would be a good thing, or do you think that 3 and 4 star hard modes should cater only to certain ATs?

[Blackbird71]

On 9/5/2022 at 12:32 PM, Luminara said:

 

I've acquired four doing nothing but tips and scanner missions, on four different characters.  A drop each day, less than an hour of play time. 

 

 

A drop a day.  So then, only about three years to get the mini costume.  I'm so glad they made it reasonable and achievable for casual players. 

[Songseven]

[Neiska]

2 minutes ago, Songseven said:

 

[Glacier Peak]

4 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

A drop a day.  So then, only about three years to get the mini costume.  I'm so glad they made it reasonable and achievable for casual players. 

That's the highest tier cosmetic reward, not the best example for your response to Luminara. And you know there is a market option to complement the manual earning through content since you've read through this thread and responded. It seems a bit disingenuous to imply otherwise. 

[ivanhedgehog]

2 hours ago, Krimson said:

Two days ago, I had a coworker from another department cover a shift in mine. The previous times she helped out, the results were abysmal. I went to work fully expecting to do everything myself, and when I arrived, she was doing MUCH better than on previous occasions. I was expecting a horrid shift and got something pleasant. If I was an optimist, it would have just been a day with slightly less disappointment than optimists are normally subjected to. But since I am a pessimist, my day turned out great. Exceeded all expectations. 

 

Being a pessimist is best. You expect the worst, and when it doesn't happen, you are pleasantly surprised. Optimists however live a life of disappointment after disappointment. 

was that a quote from optimist prime?😁

[PeregrineFalcon]

52 minutes ago, roleki said:

Yeah, guys, farming just gets shittier and shittier every time the devs release an update, nothing to worry about!  You can still do it!   Why all the complaints?  Ingrates!

This is a Super Hero game. Not a farm simulator. Can we all just admit that the primary purpose behind this game is to be a Super Hero and fight bad guys?

 

Now, that being said, I am glad that there are other things to do in CoH other than just beat up bad guys 24/7. But since farming is still the fastest and easiest way to make money in this game it's hard to take any complaints about the devs making farming difficult seriously.

[Yomo Kimyata]

3 hours ago, America's Angel said:

Having a high turnover of people playing converter roulette is good for the economy. Means it remains a viable means for new players looking to make their first billion.

 

It keeps prices low, and helps new players make money. Win/win!

 

Yes, this is true.  Do you have any ideas as to how to get high turnover of people doing so?  Because it's a wasteland and it's a shame.

[The_Warpact]

5 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

This is a Super Villain game. Not a farm simulator. Can we all just admit that the primary purpose behind this game is to be a Super Villain and kill good guys?

Fixed that for ya, cape.

[roleki]

13 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

This is a Super Hero game. Not a farm simulator. Can we all just admit that the primary purpose behind this game is to be a Super Hero and fight bad guys?

 

Uh.  What do you think happens in a farm?

[The_Warpact]

5 minutes ago, roleki said:

 

Uh.  What do you think happens in a farm?

Fun Fact

Superman was a farmer in the Kingdom Come series.

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, The_Warpact said:

Fun Fact

Superman was a farmer in the Kingdom Come series.

Solid series! The artwork was nuts! Loved the chronological shift and the 'realism' of the series too.