Focused Feedback: Sentinel Archetype Revamp

[Riverdusk]

38 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

Yes, but, it's not terribly useful either way. Or should I say it is about as useful as a Rad toggles. Which seems paradoxical since rad toggles are huge. But they don't get used during regular gameplay because everything melts too fast. What is the point of using Rad toggles (or Opportunity) on anything other than an AV/GM (probably on the Tinpex EBs since they are still decently sturdy)? Even a boss lasts a cant handful of seconds. So now there is one less second if Opportunity was used.

 

Different than Rad toggles glacial 3 second activation times Opportunity's no-cast-time nature will maybe allow it to be bound so it is automatically used while in combat. Something to test.

 

 

Speaking of testing, I beg the rest of you lot to log your Sentinels and test and then bring back numbers. At least with mine there was no improvement (or slightly worse but that can be RNG. We need more data samples please) in pylon times with Opportunity used religiously.

 

So no need to start making noises about being too good of a buff and maybe nerf it some, eh?

 

Actually a little noticed change it seems, radiation infection's animation time was reduced in the last page (down from 3.13 seconds to 1.5 seconds).  I've found that change alone makes the set much smoother.  And I wish they'd give Nature's spore cloud, and dark's darkest night the same treatment. 

 

Enervating field has always been pretty quick, also at 1.5 seconds. 

 

I still tend to use EF more often on my rads while in a team though just because -res tends to be more useful in a team setting than -tohit and -def....usually anyway. 

 

Sorry for the sidetrack.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Riverdusk

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 hours ago, Keen said:

What's your time with that build on Live? It shouldn't have changed much (assuming you used Offensive Opportunity).

 

Just got 3:11 so apparently I'm senile. Thought he was sittin around 4 mins on average. Carry on.

[Keen]

2 hours ago, Dispari said:

As far as the purple patch is concerned, correct me if I'm wrong but the math on this works out to:
+0: -20% (old), -15% (new)
+1: -18% (old), -15% (new)
+2: -16% (old), -15% (new)
+3: -13% (old), -15% (new)
+4: -9.6% (old), -15% (new)
+5: -6% (old), -15% (new)
 

 

There was an additional -5% from the previous auto proc (now removed), which stacked with the old Vulnerability for -25% total. Both would be affected by the purple patch.

 

But while the new debuff is overall smaller in potency, it now affects more things. I do think the -Special and -mezresist will have a great effect on some team compositions.

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Keen

[aethereal]

So I think damage needs to come up more.  I have three possible (mutually exclusive) suggestions:

 

Increase Scalar to 1.2

 

I seriously doubt that anyone is going to go for this since it's an unprecedentedly high number, but I'll just point out that the damage from Scrappers/Blasters/Stalkers/Brutes would still be solidly higher than Sentinels (just straight up boring regular crits for a Scrapper put their scalar at de facto 1.22 or so, before their ATOs, and Scrappers without ATOs underperform Brutes and Stalkers).

 

Restore the -5% Resistance Debuff on all/most attacks

 

And ideally make it also not affected by the purple patch.  It's not a huge difference, but it'd make the scalar be the 15% damage buff that it's advertised as, rather than a 10% buff, and it makes Sents a little better on teams.

 

Install a damage buff effect from high Opportunity

 

Make the Opportunity meter give a 20% damage bonus when at 100% (so 10% at 50%, 5% at 25%).  This gives Sentinels an implicit tradeoff between AoE and ST, with AoE benefitting from maxing their Opportunity meter and ST benefiting from Vulnerability.  20% damage bonus is roughly the equivalent of a 10% scalar improvement, and you'd only have it some of the time.  I think a problem here is that people might plausibly say, "I'd rather have a 20% damage bonus than Vulnerability even when fighting a single hard target."  If that's true, it ought to make us take a really serious look at Vulnerability, because a 20% damage bonus is genuinely not that much.

[Sovera]

1 minute ago, aethereal said:

So

I think damage needs to come up more.  I have three possible (mutually exclusive) suggestions:

 

Yeah, so far there is only looking at numbers and crowing at the buffs, but the two who have tested and reported say the numbers are the same from live to test server. Lets go easy on the general jubilation until more testing has been done.

[aethereal]

42 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

Yeah, so far there is only looking at numbers and crowing at the buffs, but the two who have tested and reported say the numbers are the same from live to test server. Lets go easy on the general jubilation until more testing has been done.

 

I'll note that pylon testing probably mildly understates the state of beta Sentinels.  Despite their mediocre times, Live Sentinels are fairly optimized towards pylons -- they get a hefty resistance debuff (which as you've convincingly shown have vastly overstated effects on pylons vs other enemies), and it's easy for them to optimize Opportunity.  Beta Sentinels rely less on resistance debuffs and the debuff they do get shouldn't have outsized effects on pylons vs other hard targets, plus it should be easier for them to apply Vulnerability in less controlled circumstances in a more optimal way than Opportunity could be applied on Live.

 

So, being careful about what I'm saying here:

 

On Live, Sentinels overperform versus pylons, and their mediocre times masks even-less-than-mediocre performance against other enemies.

 

On Beta, Sentinels probably do not overperform as much versus pylons, and their mediocre times probably are more fairly representative of mediocre performance against other enemies.

[Sovera]

2 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

I'll note that pylon testing probably mildly understates the state of beta Sentinels.  Despite their mediocre times, Live Sentinels are fairly optimized towards pylons -- they get a hefty resistance debuff (which as you've convincingly shown have vastly overstated effects on pylons vs other enemies), and it's easy for them to optimize Opportunity.  Beta Sentinels rely less on resistance debuffs and the debuff they do get shouldn't have outsized effects on pylons vs other hard targets, plus it should be easier for them to apply Vulnerability in less controlled circumstances in a more optimal way than Opportunity could be applied on Live.

 

So, being careful about what I'm saying here:

 

On Live, Sentinels overperform versus pylons, and their mediocre times masks even-less-than-mediocre performance against other enemies.

 

On Beta, Sentinels probably do not overperform as much versus pylons, and their mediocre times probably are more fairly representative of mediocre performance against other enemies.

 

You make a good point. Pylons are just an easy test subject.

 

Not sure what we could use instead other than some easy AV in the AE. The -resist not being resisted by +3 enemies should show results straight away. Or not. Which is why we have tests.

[Bill Z Bubba]

'You wanted more?"

 

I give. Make the damage scale 2.

[Gulbasaur]

 

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

Not sure what we could use instead other than some easy AV in the AE. The -resist not being resisted by +3 enemies should show results straight away. Or not. Which is why we have tests.

The trapdoor test is probably a good one to run. It's a very straighforward "actual mission" with mixed enemy types. 

[Sovera]

3 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

 

The trapdoor test is probably a good one to run. It's a very straighforward "actual mission" with mixed enemy types. 

 

Uuuuugh, I hate running that on a squishy 😄 Damn cramped quarters...

[Gulbasaur]

37 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

Uuuuugh, I hate running that on a squishy 😄 Damn cramped quarters...

Well, sentinels ain't exactly squishy...

[High_Beam]

20 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

Well, sentinels ain't exactly squishy...

They are kind of chunky.

[evetsleep]

It's a super small thing compared to other things being discussed here, but when I copied one of my Sentinels over to test Vulnerability was not auto-added to my power tray.  For those of us paying attention that's easy enough to fix, but I was wondering if less played Sentinels might miss the new power since it's not automatically added.  Would it be possible to auto-add the new Vulnerability power to the power tray if it isn't there post-patch?  I think it is auto-added to new Sentinels when I created and did some Seismic Blast testing, but just not existing Sentinels.

[oldskool]

Just some first impressions: 

 

So, far I am pleased with how Opportunity is decoupled from the T1/T2 powers and this returns a little bit of agency back to players. The other passive benefits are also nice. 

I do miss the possibility of endurance return that has been cut from Defensive Opportunity. 

The damage changes aren't as big a deal as some may make it sound. It isn't like this wasn't predictable in the numerous threads on Sentinel damage over the years. All things considered, the offensive output is essentially treading water in solo play so far. 

 

[Greycat]

About the only quibble I have is not *really* liking the name Vulnerability.

 

I kind of miss the choice of buff or debuff on the T1 or T2, but not enough to really argue (yet.)

[Bill Z Bubba]

Full feedback post: Not discussing with anyone else. Not replying to anyone else. Not replying to any replies that might occur.

 

On live, I don't have the T2 blast in my build. I'm pure offense. I blast away and never worry about the inherent.

On beta, I've lost a constant debuff as the new click is NOT perma-ble. I watched it disappear against a pylon and not be ready to fire again.

The very fact that I would even HAVE another click to deal with is an unwanted nuisance.

I'm also annoyed that, once again, rather than the multitude of other ideas posted over the years by various players, the decision to go with nothing but moar damuge has been the choice made.

 

 

[Sovera]

I agree an added click was a nuisance. But not having enough Opportunity? When I pylon tested I started at full bar and by the time it was over the bar had refilled so I just reapplied it. 3 minute tests and never ran out.

 

I don't know what to say.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Sovera

[Luminara]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

The very fact that I would even HAVE another click to deal with is an unwanted nuisance.

 

1 minute ago, Sovera said:

I agree an added click was a nuisance.

 

Thirded.  I'm not going to use it at all on minions or lieutenants, which means my use is going to be comparatively infrequent, and a power used infrequently is eventually forgotten, or removed from the tray because I've gotten by without it and just don't need it.

 

The increased damage scalar will be nice.  The extra click, I won't bother with.  But I'm too casual to solo AVs or GMs now, so my perspective is probably skewed.

[Ratch_]

Is there anyway for the inherit clicky to be able to be activated DURING a power use?

Overall, the changes are noticeable to the sentinel I have on 'live' and is the one I copied over and been using on beta does have a somewhat difference, but nothing that is extremely game changing either. I am basically still playing the same character more or less and don't feel incentivized any more than before to use the inherit outside of bosses+. The rage meter seemed to be recharging plenty fast for me in regards to when I wanted to actually use the inherit, it was for the most part always available. Gonna keep echoing that the feedback of the Vulnerability inherit power feels rather lackluster and I don't like dedicating a procedurally click order just to fit it in. If I can activate it during an attack that would ease my woes since I'm not actually doing anything during an animation anyways.

[aethereal]

I just ran some missions with my old old old main (an Archery/Ninja sentinel, level 50, with some incarnates).  I don't really notice anything in particular in terms of damage output -- but then it's been a long time since I played this character and I don't have much of a sense of how much damage it "should" do.  In general, in ordinary gameplay, the issue with damage output for sentinels is more target caps on AoEs than raw damage anyway.

 

Played around with a pylon, but definitely didn't know what I was doing until partway through it.  Once I did kinda figure out how a rotation would work, I was working slowly on it but clearly had a long haul ahead of me (but that's basically because this character was built incompetently a few years ago).

[Tachstar]

I'm no good with the technical stuff so I'll leave all that to the people who understand it -- /e wave at everybody else -- but I do want to say that I don't like the inherent being a Click. At all. I don't even care what it does. I don't want to have to click it for it to do it. It just seems... wrong. Further, it doesn't make me want to roll a new Sentinel, or any more eager play the ones I already have.

 

Another thing that bugged me when I ran a brand new pistols/willpower Sentinel through Outbreak this morning -- the short range. I've never understood the Sentinel's shorter range thing. It's never made sense to me, and seemed especially senseless this morning to think that a Sentinel's pistols couldn't shoot as far as a Blaster's. I know the range thing isn't part of the current beta test, but maybe it should be.

 

I am glad, though, that this AT is getting some attention. Maybe when all is said and done it will finally (wait for it) CLICK with me.

[BrandX]

Don't care for the extra click either.  Didn't care for the current being tied to tier 1 or tier 2 attack tho.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Thirded.  I'm not going to use it at all on minions or lieutenants, which means my use is going to be comparatively infrequent, and a power used infrequently is eventually forgotten, or removed from the tray because I've gotten by without it and just don't need it.

What would you think about it being changed to a stacking debuff instead of a click?

 

Perhaps something like the current Blaster Inherent: Defiance? Only instead of a stacking damage buff it'd be a stacking debuff on the target. Maybe something like -2% that lasts for 10 seconds?

 

Something like that would barely be noticeable on anything below a boss, as nothing below a boss lasts for 10 seconds after contact with a PC anyway. For EBs and up it'd be a big help for the whole team as they actually live long enough to be noticeably affected by it.

[@Ghost]

nthing the idea of a frequent, AT-level quickie that can't functionally be "set it and forget it" being an odd choice. It's not so much that it's a clickie, but rather one you're expected to utilize repeatedly over and over in combat.  It's not that one ability ever breaks the bank, but for the record, my beta character's bars are jam packed:

 

 

I can *comfortably* hit 1-5 and alt 1-5 (the second bar) and I'm cheating a bit with a MMO mouse where the lower-right-most 6 abilities I have on mouse buttons. The rest I'm clicking. So rather than something like Domination, which is still awkward and really warrants a 2nd auto-fire option, I'm giving up a spot for a combat ability I have to hit repeatedly. I didn't get the chance to test in a group but the bit about it not working in tandem with other Sentinels seems extremely counterintuitive to CoH's team oriented gameplay and I can't think of any other power that behave that way. It also really flies against the current draft of Sentinel where "multiple Sentinels can work together to enhance the effect."

 

Generally speaking, the extra damage felt good but nothing really that imo is gamebreaking or wild. I got a 4m10s with Water/Bio on a pylon, even using degenerate APP powers procced to the gills.  Trapdoor time was about 6m 5s. Nothing crazy or exceptional and certainly room for improvement on my part, but I wouldn't really call it substantial power creep. Water may be the outlier here with its wild amounts of AOE that made the gameplay actually feel pretty good.

 

Also, seeing "Opportunity Strikes" as special proc text can probably go away now, I think. Feels very redundant to see it firing so often when it's just filling up a bar slightly.

[Sovera]

I've tried to bind Vulnerability to an attack but no dice. Rolling keybinds or using the auto trick would work though.