Focused Feedback: Sentinel Archetype Revamp

[Riverdusk]

Also agree not a big fan of extra clicks.  I'd rather it just happens randomly when you attack (like how crits work).   Or a small stacking debuff as @PeregrineFalcon mentioned. 

 

If a "power-up" bar has to be kept, then maybe it just automatically applies a non-stacking debuff for the next few attacks after it is full.  That way you still have enough time to realize it is active and have time to "choose" a specific target for it if you want.  A brief debuff version of "domination" in a sense.

[Underfyre]

20 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Pylon time with fire/bio sent, 2:56. This puts it on par with my shield/nrg tank and claws/sr scrapper. While hovering above the fight in complete safety. (Edit: In normal content, of course. I know it doesn't matter with pylons.) Also took out a lvl 54 Tub Ci in Mr G's arc in less than 5 mins.

 

Yay. More power creep.

 

Am I to understand this was done with a fully ranged sentinel? With one of the absolute strongest Sentinel sets available?

[aethereal]

I would like to speak in favor of there being some kind of choice involved in the inherent, not just a fully passive ability.  Sentinels have the potential to be really, really simple to play -- Armor sets are mostly not very active, blast sets for the most part don't have any combo mechanics (water being the exception, and I guess to some extent new electric).  Positioning is broadly simple for Sents, more so than for melee.  Sentinel blast sets almost never have any tactical powers -- things that in other blast sets are infrequently used mezzes are just part of your attack rotation for Sents.  Your nuke is up every spawn.

 

That being the case, I think having an inherent that adds some tactical tension to Sentinel gameplay is more welcome on Sentinels than it would be for any other AT.  I recognize of course that some people strongly favor extremely hands-off play, but we're already way over on one side of that.  A little concession to active play surely isn't too much to ask.

 

I can brainstorm up lots of suggestions for exactly what that inherent looks like -- from "something kind of similar to how Opportunity/Vulnerability currently works" to "completely off the current path," but I feel like generally these threads aren't the right place for that.

[Keen]

1 hour ago, Tachstar said:

Another thing that bugged me when I ran a brand new pistols/willpower Sentinel through Outbreak this morning -- the short range. I've never understood the Sentinel's shorter range thing. It's never made sense to me, and seemed especially senseless this morning to think that a Sentinel's pistols couldn't shoot as far as a Blaster's. I know the range thing isn't part of the current beta test, but maybe it should be.

 

Welcome to Sentinel design. A bullet list:

• The theme around Sentinels is "ranged scrappers", hence shorter range and smaller area radius
• The target caps on their AoEs match Scrapper values (10 for sphere AoEs, 6 for cones)
• Sentinel nukes are normalized around Scrapper values for attacks like Lightning Rod and Shield Charge
  • As such, Sentinel nukes have an inner radius which cause them to deal even less total damage in the area
• With this update, Sentinel damage is now close to Scrapper level, before crits
  • And no, Sentinels are not doing crits anytime soon if ever

I strongly dislike this design, and any suggestions to deviate from it are rejected right away, but it is what it is.

At least knowing the reasoning behind it makes it a bit less infuriating.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Keen

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

What would you think about it being changed to a stacking debuff instead of a click?

I'd get more use from it in that form than I ever will as a click.  Or than I did when it was tied to the T1/T2 attacks.  If it requires micro-management (something no other inherent expects of the player), and gives so little benefit for the work and time invested that it can be ignored, it's no different from the current version of Opportunity and I'll treat it as such.

 

Frankly, I don't care if it makes hot dogs rain, as long as it does it without my interaction.

[KaizenSoze]

16 minutes ago, Keen said:

 

Welcome to Sentinel design. A bullet list:

• The theme around Sentinels is "ranged scrappers", hence shorter range and smaller area radius
• The target caps on their AoEs match Scrapper values (10 for sphere AoEs, 6 for cones)
• Sentinel nukes are normalized around Scrapper values for attacks like Lightning Rod and Shield Charge
  • As such, Sentinel nukes have an inner radius which cause them to deal even less total damage in the area
• With this update, Sentinel damage is now close to Scrapper level, before crits
  • And no, Sentinels are not doing crits anytime soon if ever

I strongly dislike this design, and any suggestions to deviate from it are rejected right away, but it is what it is.

At least knowing the reasoning behind it makes it a bit less infuriating.

Excellent post. I would add that Sentinel defense values are basically the same as scrappers. Except that Sentinels do almost all there damage at range, except for a few APP melee attacks, which means they are safer in most combat.

 

Less damage than scrappers, much closer than before page 5, but more durable.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

I'd get more use from it in that form than I ever will as a click.  Or than I did when it was tied to the T1/T2 attacks.  If it requires micro-management (something no other inherent expects of the player), and gives so little benefit for the work and time invested that it can be ignored, it's no different from the current version of Opportunity and I'll treat it as such.

 

Frankly, I don't care if it makes hot dogs rain, as long as it does it without my interaction.

Ok, I'm glad you like my idea.

 

Next step, please talk with the devs and try to get them to make that change.

 

I hate to ask you to do that, but I'm convinced that if I ask them it's virtually guaranteed to be "no."

[Luminara]

5 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Next step, please talk with the devs and try to get them to make that change.

 

My voice carries no more weight than anyone else's.

 

They wouldn't do it anyway because there's no way to distinguish between single-target and AoE in this context, and they want the inherent to be restricted to use on a single target.  As an automatically applied debuff, it would function in AoEs as well.

[Dispari]

Just a small issue. Playing with it I've noticed that Vulnerability does an animation even if it can't activate. Even if it fails because there's already Vulnerability on the target. Even if you're out of range. Even if you don't have enough to cast it. Bit misleading.

And I guess I'll chip in and give my opinion that I like the click. Gives me control over when and where it's used. Definitely better than the old way of doing things. Though I'd be open to seeing other ways it could possibly work.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Dispari

[KaiOte]

While I like the new changes I think something like an inherent would be more useful. Basically my idea is that you passively add the debuff to any enemy you target by 1% (or however much) until you get to that 15%. Fading stacks that will dissipate unless stacks are reapplied fast enough. Basically you'd attack 15 times, or it comes back on a timer, some sort of appropriate limiter, and get the same effect we have here on any single target ability. Maybe even gives them a little mark so you know where your debuff is. As it is I don't see it seeing much use as it is still too inconvenient to rotate on enemies that are going to die in a few seconds anyway. at least this way you get a slowly scaling effect that will show at least some minor use on small enemies and gets stronger as you need it too for tougher stuff. Your proposed version is ready for AVs and what not but you'll never use it on anything else even with such generous timers because you'd have to click one more button that is largely unnecessary. Regardless all these changes are still better without outdamaging a blaster/scrapper, at least from first glance, so as is it's still good. These benefits while also being as tanky as they are might need to be looked at if I was being objective. Its hard to beat being able to fly and do good dps and be more survivable than most at the same time but that may be a problem with game balance at large. Scrappers are already being pushed out of their niche by stalkers (and tankers with their aoe) but sentinels will definitely start being a competitor for that slot now too. I think this is a net positive as scrappers aren't as interesting imo but I'm sure others might disagree.

Edited October 6, 2022 by KaiOte

[Dispari]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

I would like to speak in favor of there being some kind of choice involved in the inherent, not just a fully passive ability.  Sentinels have the potential to be really, really simple to play -- Armor sets are mostly not very active, blast sets for the most part don't have any combo mechanics (water being the exception, and I guess to some extent new electric).  Positioning is broadly simple for Sents, more so than for melee.  Sentinel blast sets almost never have any tactical powers -- things that in other blast sets are infrequently used mezzes are just part of your attack rotation for Sents.  Your nuke is up every spawn.

 

That being the case, I think having an inherent that adds some tactical tension to Sentinel gameplay is more welcome on Sentinels than it would be for any other AT.  I recognize of course that some people strongly favor extremely hands-off play, but we're already way over on one side of that.  A little concession to active play surely isn't too much to ask.

 

I can brainstorm up lots of suggestions for exactly what that inherent looks like -- from "something kind of similar to how Opportunity/Vulnerability currently works" to "completely off the current path," but I feel like generally these threads aren't the right place for that.

I would definitely agree with this. It's true that other ATs don't really have inherents like this. But that's kinda the point isn't it? Every AT has its own inherent that's different. Having one that's fairly active to use could actually be a draw for the AT rather than a downside. People who don't want that kind of thing certainly have options available, just like someone who doesn't want to manage stealth and assassin strikes can avoid stalkers. Having this kind of power gives the sentinel a unique identity.

Now, the real question is, is it executed well? Is it fun, interesting, or impactful the way it is? I've been soloing a bit around 12 and then 22 on SOs just to see how it feels. The new base damage is pretty good, but it's definitely no blaster (or even scrapper). I'm not sure I can feel the -RES at work (though the -DEF on FF drones was helping). I'm not sure I'm sold on sentinel overall just yet, but they're better than they were. It's certainly a start though!

[PeregrineFalcon]

I just logged off of the beta server. This is my focused feedback.

 

I made a level 30 Fire/EA Sentinel. All SOs, except for a Performance Shifter proc in Stamina and a Miracle in Health. I didn't want to have to deal with Endurance issues.

 

Did some street sweeping in Brickstown against +2s and +3s, and a scanner mission against Freakshow at 0/0. Kill time was noticeably better than on live, but not crazy fast like on a Fire Blaster. Saved the inherent click for the boss. Some Freak Tank named Krok. With Vulnerability on him he didn't last any longer than the LTs did, which is to say an attack or two longer than a minion.

 

Soloing with a Sentinel on live is just boring because it takes so long to kill anything, and the inherent feels worthless. Soloing with a Sentinel on the beta server is like a slower but safer Blaster, with a useful inherent. Still not sure I like the inherent power being a click, but it did its job.

 

I have to say, I think the devs are spot on with this upgrade.

[Mystic Fortune]

I wonder if instead of a click power, a vulnerability global debuff 'proc' could be added to each of the single target attacks and have an opportunity cost to trigger the proc. From there have Opportunity generated at a slower rate than it currently does on BETA. When you activate a power, if you have enough opportunity the attack applies the vulnerability, if you have insufficient Opportunity the attack fires regularly without the vulnerability proc?

 

I dunno, I'm spit ball here at this point. I just REALLY hate the addition of a click power. Sentinel has been my favorite AT post shutdown, but adding a micromanagement click power to my tray is just going to be annoying, especially when the majority of my Sentinels use weapon sets, and the current BETA version of vulnerability forces redraw.

[Underfyre]

15 hours ago, Sovera said:

Speaking of testing, I beg the rest of you lot to log your Sentinels and test and then bring back numbers. At least with mine there was no improvement (or slightly worse but that can be RNG. We need more data samples please) in pylon times with Opportunity used religiously.

 

I'm able to put up sub 2 minute times on ele/bio/ninja. Not the 88 second times my spreadsheet implies, but much faster than before.

[Underfyre]

The Brimstone proc isn't working for the Voltaic Sentinel pet. Molten Embrace and Bio procs do work. Bug?

[Zepp]

It would be nice if it were possible to bind or macro Vulnerability with another power...
If you could change it to a toggle enemy (1s-ish duration 4s-ish cooldown 15s effect) this should be possible.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Zepp

[aethereal]

Okay, so I went back to live and did the same mission as I did on test (it's for what it's worth one of the missions in Number 6's arc, so it's against level 50 Praetorian Devoured Earth), on +1/x6 (which is what this character was set to on live -- look, don't laugh at me, I made it like three years ago and didn't know how to build).  Then I did it on test again. 

 

My takeaway:  I didn't notice a difference on Live vs Beta except that I missed having defensive opportunity, which felt like a better way to refill my end bar than using the Ninjutsu endurance heal.  But that'd probably not be a real thing if I rebuilt this character for the beta environment, so no biggie there.

 

It's probably not that my damage wasn't a little better on Beta, it's just that the controlling factor on how fast you deal with a spawn on +1/x6 is not "how fast do you damage the ones that you hit," it's "how many do you not damage at all because they're excluded due to target caps."

 

EDIT:  I know that I'm virtually alone in liking defensive opportunity, and I do get that what a sent generally needs is more damage, not more survivability or more endurance, but I did feel like Defensive Opportunity made it so that the inherent was of some use when you weren't fighting EBs or higher -- you tap Defensive and now you get a mild top-up on endurance and health without having to do anything except keep fighting.  That was nice.  On beta, I don't feel inclined to even look at Vulnerability until I'm fighting a better-than-boss-class enemy.

Edited October 6, 2022 by aethereal

[Mr Pierce]

I'm throwing my hat in with the pro-clicky crowd. I don't mind it being a clicky, since I can target who I want the debuff on. Sure, it makes it a little cumbersome, but it is LEAP YEARS better than the inherent on live servers. I have never liked the random nature of it. I feel like most people would agree with that much. In other words, I'm down to try other ideas, but please, please do NOT give up and go back to the live inherent.

[Arcadio]

I definitely prefer the clicky, and I think I would also like it more than just a passive addon to all attacks. I like managing what targets I want to focus down. If you don't want to manage the power, the absolute worst you can do is just put it on auto and let it run.

[BurtHutt]

I am happy to see Sent upgrades. They're nice and I like them but I was hoping for something more creative like when suggestions were made in the forums. 

 

I will say there are some cool things coming out in regards to new powers. Well done. I hope it gets more creative 🙂 

[Jacke]

8 hours ago, Luminara said:

[ The devs ] wouldn't [ change Sentinel Inherent to some sort of stacking debuff ] anyway because there's no way to distinguish between single-target and AoE in this context, and they want the inherent to be restricted to use on a single target.  As an automatically applied debuff, it would function in AoEs as well.

 

I think the Sentinel Inherent can be made to work on a single target and not on a group.  There's several possibilities.

 

Two ways I can think of for a automatic stacking debuff to be limited to ST:

 

1.  Put the new Inherent only on single target attacks.  Ie. only flag the ST attacks as having the new Inherent as an included effect.

 

2.  Restrict the new Inherent effect to just the main target of all attacks, ST and AoE.  An example is the Kinetics' power Increase Density, which is AoE but only for its +Res effect; all other effects have radius limiters that means they only affect the toon targetted by the buff.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=defender_buff.kinetics.increase_density&at=defender

Edited October 6, 2022 by Jacke

[Wavicle]

Personally I really, really like the new design of the inherent.

I find clicking it immediately after Aim to be very easy, and I can pretty much put it up whenever I want.

The overall strength of the AT has gone up considerably.

[Marbing]

I tested a Fire/Inv sent with SO's in PI against the Zombie Horde. He did very well. Held his own solo, but wasn't too OP. The inherent is MUCH better than before. I like that its a click that I can choose when to use. Sents will now have a much more desirable use on teams. I will actually start creating sents now because of this. I had been avoiding them before because they (simply put) sucked compared to blasters overall. 

 

[Heatstroke]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Personally I really, really like the new design of the inherent.

I find clicking it immediately after Aim to be very easy, and I can pretty much put it up whenever I want.

The overall strength of the AT has gone up considerably.

 

Just tested on my Dark/Bio and my Elec/Elec Sentinel... 

 

I agree with this whole heartedly. I like the ability for me to control and select Vulnerability on the targets I choose to use it on.  It was noticeable on bosses. I doubt I would ever use it on anything less than a boss. I also like that fact that it stays built up until I decide to use it. Its not a "Use it" or "Lose it" like Domination 

 

Other Observations. 

 

There does seem to be something a little off.. I think it needs that orange ring to pop back up when its available for a second application. I noticed when fighting two bosses that after defeating one, I could quickly debuff the second boss, but there wasn't an obvious visual effect on the power telling me that I COULD use it again. I just tried it.  I think definitely could use this.

 

As far as the damage increase. I could notice it. It didn't feel like it was out of line. I'm more of a feel guy than a numbers guy.. It definitely felt like I was " pew pewing " less than I normally would. The increase was more noticeable to me on AoEs.

 

I couldn't tell if the Proc from the ATO was doing anything. Has it been changed? I noticed no changes in the description on test. What does the Opportunity Proc do now? what does it do now beside recharge? Maybe I missed this.. 

 

What is the point of having more perception?  

 

[aethereal]

5 minutes ago, Heatstroke said:

I couldn't tell if the Proc from the ATO was doing anything. Has it been changed? I noticed no changes in the description on test. What does the Opportunity Proc do now? what does it do now beside recharge? Maybe I missed this.. 

 

It still increases your opportunity meter (so makes vulnerability usable more quickly).