Hop on over to the beta server to test out some Page 5 power updates!

[Sovera]

4 hours ago, shatterpoint said:

That was abandoned long ago. This is a factory.

I got asked on a TF why I didn't have Team Teleport. I told them I didn't have the cash. I was told:

"Pharm moar"

Everyone LOL'd.

PLAY the game? Why? Basic XP is crap. Do double XP for no influence. Need influence...well they have that mapped out too. Sell X, Y or Z for big bucks. All the build guides have high end Enhancers. How do you earn the cash for those? Well, you farm. You will NOT get it by playing the game itself. New players MUST get into the factory mind or do without. There is ZERO reward for playing the game normally. 

 

You don't need to farm. You can play the game without locking yourself out.

 

I famously have a post where I recount how I started a level 1 character with no IO transfers, in inf transfers, and after the first game session I was level 40-ish, had 30-ish million inf to my name and had already bought a few uniques and slotted them. No farming, no market playing other than selling the enhancers I found. I can try to find it if you'd like, but perhaps you'd like a browse at the guide in my signature.

[Aracknight]

Uh...when I got back, I did some doorsitting to get my main back to 50.  That's when I realized I was broke except for any inf I made if I got killed in a farm because evidently that turns off 2xp until you get levelrezzed.

 

After that I tried MSRs which, while a little lucrative, were better for coverting vanguard merits to reward merits, which I used for recipes or enhancements I needed.

 

Then i started doing task forces and oro arcs for reward merits, and continued equipping myself that way.

 

I dont marketeer.  I usually sell off all my recipes at a shop instead of an AH, unless its a purple or high value orange.  I usually even ignore basic and yellow recipes because Im a badger.

 

I'm currently all kitted out, with everything catalyzed, on two builds, t4s and all with multiple t4 options, and currently chilling at about 650 million inf even after hooking up 2 alts.

 

Farming is in exactly zero way required to do a goddamn thing.

[shatterpoint]

it's a great guide.

Still misses what I was pointing out. Game makes you follow this way or no real reward.

The point is lost. Done. Thanks.

 

 

[Aracknight]

We literally showed you the rewards for playing normally.

[DawL]

4 hours ago, shatterpoint said:

That was abandoned long ago. This is a factory.

I got asked on a TF why I didn't have Team Teleport. I told them I didn't have the cash. I was told:

"Pharm moar"

Everyone LOL'd.

PLAY the game? Why? Basic XP is crap. Do double XP for no influence. Need influence...well they have that mapped out too. Sell X, Y or Z for big bucks. All the build guides have high end Enhancers. How do you earn the cash for those? Well, you farm. You will NOT get it by playing the game itself. New players MUST get into the factory mind or do without. There is ZERO reward for playing the game normally. 

I see some of your points. But there are almost always folks willing to help you out. I have a friend who plays normally, has SEVERE alt-itis, and runs many of his characters the hard way, playing the markets from an early stage to earn his way up. There are definitely ways to earn your way, with a bit of effort. 

I am sorry your team appears to have been making fun at your expense and laughing at you. Sending you a private message. 

[Sovera]

7 minutes ago, shatterpoint said:

it's a great guide.

Still misses what I was pointing out. Game makes you follow this way or no real reward.

The point is lost. Done. Thanks.

 

 

 

Well, I mean, what do you want us to say? The game is an open world lobby where we enter private instances. You're meant to follow this by using contacts, picking missions, go into the instances, do the content.

 

You don't need to team, you don't need to use the same contacts each time. But that's what the game is. It's not an Everquest or a WoW where we take the quests in the open world and do them in the open world.

 

The specifics is that you said 'you will NOT get the money by playing the game' and we are saying yes, yes you will. Just do arcs, do TFs. I literally just said I had 30-40 million the first day of playing a new character and with some already spent by buying stuff. How is this not making money by playing the game?

 

My main income is just jumping on any given TF and do it with others and if that is not playing the game then what is? I don't even do marketing with the merits, I just sell them. Super efficient? No, but I -am- earning the money by playing the game instead of farming.

 

Edit: and at level 50 the double XP ends and the raw money pours in with doing some solo or teaming an coming 5-10 million richer in raw cash even if doing content that is not giving merits as rewards.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Sovera

[Saikochoro]

On 10/9/2022 at 2:39 AM, Shadeknight said:

There is no wrong kind of player.

What has happened is not, by any stretch of the imagination, an attempt to drive farmers out. Has fire farming been made harder? Sure, but where there is a will there is a way. Player opinion aside, and I'll admit folks can be vitriolic in expressing their distaste for fire farming being there, it's not a thing that the fire farmers are in the wrong. Fire farming is just ludicrously the best way to "progress" in the game, and things needed to be dialed back. Does the fire sword change affect farmers? Sure, but that's the product of fire being the thing to farm. Anything done to Fiery Melee is going to, fortunately or unfortunately, affect fire farmers. Adjustment isn't a bad thing to ask for.

I really doubt (and I can be proven wrong) that the intent of devs or players that ask people to test is to drive people away. Do the people asking it or expressing it come off like that? I can see it. People can get very defensive and passionate on all sides, and it can lead to more pushy sounding wording/opinion. 

Though I do know some people whose opinion is "burn it to the ground." in regards to the AE/Fire farming so I can see how that opinion (that there are "wrong" players) might form.

 

No one doing testing has been shouted down as far as I've seen. What has happened in the past is Patch Note Reactors taking a single change or a single note and losing their mind. The best case example of this would remain the Attack Type Changes. People went mental that something was changing, and rather than testing it? They kept calling it a waste of time or a shit change. They did not express what wasn't working, they didn't express any bugs with the changes, and they most certainly didn't give evidence of them having tested it.

Those are the people that make Betas a little more mind-boggling. It's not that disagreeing gets you shut down, but the lack of testing that gets side-eyed. What tends to happen, and I'm guilty of it in the past, is that people will try to challenge someone else's feedback even if they've tested it. That shouldn't be happening. If you test it and can provide that you have (i.e comparing Beta vs Live in feeling/numbers for power changes as an example) then realistically you should still be heard.

Obviously all of that is semantics when some forum posters fall into challenging feedback despite the guidelines saying otherwise.

People absolutely have been shouted down for disliking a change. I’ll be honest and say I was even one of those people in the beginning of the game and for that I am ashamed.  Sometimes it takes drinking your own medicine to see what you are doing to others (the “you” I’m talking about is me early on in the forums). I remember I think I was actually shouting down @Bill Z Bubbaat some point. I know I definitely shouted down the tactical arrow dissent. And yes, those people were actually testing things. And they expressed their dislike of it. 
 

My eyes were finally opening with the rune of protection changes. I experience what I did to others and finally saw what was happening. I had very thoroughly tested the changes and tried my best to put up meaningful feedback. Then I, along with several others, where repeatedly challenged and basically told to stop complaining. 
 

And honestly, after that, I realized it’s not really even the fact that things change that bother me. I can easily get over rune changes. If they nerf shield to the ground will I complain about it? Hell yes. But will that make stop playing the game? No. Nerfs happen. Big deal. If they nerf tankers to the ground will I complain? Yes.  Will it make me stop playing? No. In the grand scheme of things nerfs and buffs and changes don’t really matter. It sparks debate for sure. 
 

What really bothered me was how certain portions of the player base heavily invested in testing and the homecoming team very much felt that they were not respecting all voices being heard. I know I am not the only who felt that way or continued to feel that way. Whether they are intending on that or not, it IS coming off that way for some people. And that does drive people away a lot more readily than ANY nerf or buff will. At the very least it heavily discourages them from doing any testing in the future. 
 

I can take just about any change to my favorite sets that you can throw my way. I, however, do not like feeling like I’m being relegated to the reject group and not respected just because I complained about something. My biggest regret on these boards was that I also did that early on. That’s why I bring it up again because people still do it. Maybe they don’t even realize they do it. But I know that several people feel that way including me. And honestly, that alone has made me feel like not logging in anymore. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Saikochoro

[Wavicle]

No matter how many times it is suggested, your opinion not determining the way forward is not the same as your feedback being ignored.

 

If you say to the devs “I want A” and I say to the devs “I want the opposite of A”, and then they choose one of them, that does not mean that they are ignoring either of us.

 

Not getting your way is not the same thing as having your feedback ignored.

[Saikochoro]

Obviously my post went over your head.
 

That first sentence was rude, but keeping it there to acknowledge that it was rude.
 

Let me try to clarify. 

 

The changes themselves don’t actually matter. The way the discussion is handled is the problem. Most people will get on board with just about any change as long as they feel they are being heard rather than just tolerated at best and more often than not antagonized. 
 

Someone doesn’t have to agree with you or even accept your opinion for you to feel that your voice is respected and heard. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Saikochoro

[Wavicle]

Tell THEM that.

[PeregrineFalcon]

9 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Not getting your way is not the same thing as having your feedback ignored.

Complaints about feedback being ignored have nothing to do with "getting my own way." Nice of you to dismiss the people you disagree with as being that immature.

 

Now try it like this:

 

Player 1: "Why are we doing this when a bunch of players on the forums have said they want the other thing instead."

 

Staff (Dev/GM/PR Rep/Whatever): "We considered the other thing, but we think the other thing could cause problems, and we believe that this change will be better for the game for this reason."

 

I still didn't get my way, but feedback was clearly not ignored. See this difference between my hypothetical example above and what happens in the forums currently?

[Glacier Peak]

I'm excited for all the new and returning players that continue to join the community. They're getting a great experience for free and a well established community that is very helpful compared to other games I've played. 

 

And it is awesome how I keep hearing in game how much players enjoy the HC Team for their update to the Halloween event, continued updates to the game, and their direction with the server. 

[Wavicle]

26 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Complaints about feedback being ignored have nothing to do with "getting my own way." Nice of you to dismiss the people you disagree with as being that immature.

 

Now try it like this:

 

Player 1: "Why are we doing this when a bunch of players on the forums have said they want the other thing instead."

 

Staff (Dev/GM/PR Rep/Whatever): "We considered the other thing, but we think the other thing could cause problems, and we believe that this change will be better for the game for this reason."

 

I still didn't get my way, but feedback was clearly not ignored. See this difference between my hypothetical example above and what happens in the forums currently?

no, I don’t see the difference, because this is a disingenuous example. Virtually everything in both pages 4 and 5 ARE things that players asked for. In your Hypothetical example you have a player asking for something but you don’t acknowledge that there were OTHER players asking for the opposite.

[PeregrineFalcon]

23 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

no, I don’t see the difference, because this is a disingenuous example.

And again with the insults. I wasn't lying. It was simply a hypothetical example that I threw together quickly, and yes, not a perfect one.

 

And yes, "disingenuous" is just a fancy way of calling me a liar.

 

24 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Virtually everything in both pages 4 and 5 ARE things that players asked for.

Well, I'll grant you that a lot, perhaps even most of the things in pages 4 & 5 are.

 

I don't recall anyone asking for -def to be added to Fiery Melee attacks, but I'm nitpicking. You're mostly right. Most of the stuff in the last 2 pages is stuff we asked for. It just took longer to bring it to the live servers that we thought it would. This lead a lot of us to believe that we were being ignored when asked for things. Something that could have been solved with one simple post from a developer that said, "We're working on Mercs MMs and these other things."

 

See, notice how I was able to disagree with you without implying that you're lying, or being "disingenuous"?

 

And this is exactly why the occasional developer "road map", or blog or, whatever you want to call it would be a good idea. It would actually go a long ways toward preventing a lot of people from posting the kinds of things that you, and the moderators, find... distasteful.

[Astralock]

10 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Well, I'll grant you that a lot, perhaps even most of the things in pages 4 & 5 are.

 

I don't recall anyone asking for -def to be added to Fiery Melee attacks, but I'm nitpicking. You're mostly right. Most of the stuff in the last 2 pages is stuff we asked for. It just took longer to bring it to the live servers that we thought it would. This lead a lot of us to believe that we were being ignored when asked for things. Something that could have been solved with one simple post from a developer that said, "We're working on Mercs MMs and these other things."

 

See, notice how I was able to disagree with you without implying that you're lying, or being "disingenuous"?

 

And this is exactly why the occasional developer "road map", or blog or, whatever you want to call it would be a good idea. It would actually go a long ways toward preventing a lot of people from posting the kinds of things that you, and the moderators, find... distasteful.

The problem with that is not everything worked on makes the cut for open beta.  There is something in Page 5 that was originally tested for Page 1, two years ago.  People would have been disappointed and possibly upset to be told that developers were working on it, only for it to be rolled back and not see the light of day for two years.  Other things that were tested were scrapped altogether.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Astralock

[Tachstar]

I'm a player and I never asked (for example) for hover and fly to be on simultaneously. I don't recall seeing a big demand for that. Maybe there was. /e shrug But I would rather have them be mutually exclusive. I liked it better that way. I don't like that turbo speed thing popping up when I activate fly, either. I was pretty aggravated with the change to the AH teleport thing, too. Little things like that are what finally got me to try another server, hoping to find something closer to how it was in (puts on Posi colored glasses) the Good Old Days. Which at the end weren't all that good, IMO. /e Galaxy City Forever!

 

It seems like a lot of what's being done is for the sake of convenience, to make the overall game experience easier, faster, less trouble. To get through the game quicker, for some reason? What's the hurry? Where's the fire? Get off my lawn! Uh. Anyway. Need food. Laters!

[Wavicle]

9 minutes ago, Tachstar said:

I'm a player and I never asked (for example) for hover and fly to be on simultaneously. I don't recall seeing a big demand for that. Maybe there was. /e shrug But I would rather have them be mutually exclusive. I liked it better that way. I don't like that turbo speed thing popping up when I activate fly, either. I was pretty aggravated with the change to the AH teleport thing, too. Little things like that are what finally got me to try another server, hoping to find something closer to how it was in (puts on Posi colored glasses) the Good Old Days. Which at the end weren't all that good, IMO. /e Galaxy City Forever!

 

I, and many others, did ask for Hover and Fly to be able to on together.

Teleporting to the AH is completely unnecessary in Homecoming because we can access it from anywhere with /ah, so I'm not sure why that would bother you...

I, and many others, did ask for the "base teleporter hack" to be removed and replaced with a real teleport system, which they did.

Just because you didn't ask for it and didn't see the requests for it doesn't mean they weren't there.

 

I will say again: almost EVERY change made in HC has been a response to player requests.

[Tachstar]

Well in that case I'm happy for you and all your many others that you all got what you wanted. Such a rare thing in these trying times. I'm sure you all truly appreciate it. /e tip hat

[Ruin Mage]

Key word being almost, as I'm sure there's a thing or two that were born of a dev idea or three.

[Coyotedancer]

11 hours ago, shatterpoint said:

Point proven.

 

*shrugs*

 

You do you. 

[Black Zot]

3 hours ago, Shadeknight said:

Key word being almost, as I'm sure there's a thing or two that were born of a dev idea or three.

 

Well if you want to be REALLY pedantic about the whole thing, the popular refrain of "devs are players too" would indicate that those are player ideas as well.

[Neiska]

Two thoughts. The first, is that more than any other change, how people disagree here, ingame, and the forums has done more to discourage me than any change itself. Now, yes, it is the internet. People are going to people sometimes. But I had hoped that our smaller community might be above that. Alas that doesn't seem to be the case. To me its a mix of various things, being miscommunication, lack of empathy, or just plain ego. Perhaps that last one especially in some cases.

 

6 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I will say again: almost EVERY change made in HC has been a response to player requests.

 

"Some" player requests. Most certainly not "all players." And "some" requests seem to be implemented, but the majority have not. I do hasten to add that I think we both agree that it's a good thing that not every request is implemented, as well, it would be quite the circus I expect. But from where I sit, it seems only "one side" of the fence seems to get the changes they want. I mean as an example, what if an argument was made to made to have to earn costume pieces/parts again? Or pay upkeep on bases? Or to actually make farms better instead of worse? I expect half the community would dislike those changes. As with any change. But let's not pretend that every change has been welcomed by the entire community with open arm's shall we? For me, I have liked and disliked the changes about 50/50. I liked some of them, eye rolled at a few others. And a few really had me wonder what the heck they were thinking.

 

And in my view, the server seems to be leading harder and harder in one direction, which I do not consider a good thing. And if history and other games are anything to go by, then I expect it to continue to do so.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Neiska

[Bionic_Flea]

There's nothin' you can do that can't be done
Nothin' you can sing that can't be sung
Nothin' you can say, but you can learn how to play the game
It's easy

 

 

 

[Glacier Peak]

10 hours ago, Neiska said:

Two thoughts. The first, is that more than any other change, how people disagree here, ingame, and the forums has done more to discourage me than any change itself. Now, yes, it is the internet. People are going to people sometimes. But I had hoped that our smaller community might be above that. Alas that doesn't seem to be the case. To me its a mix of various things, being miscommunication, lack of empathy, or just plain ego. Perhaps that last one especially in some cases.

 

 

"Some" player requests. Most certainly not "all players." And "some" requests seem to be implemented, but the majority have not. I do hasten to add that I think we both agree that it's a good thing that not every request is implemented, as well, it would be quite the circus I expect. But from where I sit, it seems only "one side" of the fence seems to get the changes they want. I mean as an example, what if an argument was made to made to have to earn costume pieces/parts again? Or pay upkeep on bases? Or to actually make farms better instead of worse? I expect half the community would dislike those changes. As with any change. But let's not pretend that every change has been welcomed by the entire community with open arm's shall we? For me, I have liked and disliked the changes about 50/50. I liked some of them, eye rolled at a few others. And a few really had me wonder what the heck they were thinking.

 

And in my view, the server seems to be leading harder and harder in one direction, which I do not consider a good thing. And if history and other games are anything to go by, then I expect it to continue to do so.

Harder in one direction? Has the direction changed since Homecoming started up? What do you mean by direction?

[Neiska]

20 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Harder in one direction? Has the direction changed since Homecoming started up? What do you mean by direction?

 

Not to get too off topic, as this was being discussed in other posts. But the short version of it is, is there are some people whom feel the same group of people who push for some changes seem to get it, while others who do the same do not. I hesitate to use the words favoritism or bias, because A) we only see half the picture and not the whole, B) there are many, many of us, and precious few staff members. So addressing each and every person 1 by 1 would be a full time job, and isn't realistic in expectations. C) Having once been a staff member elsewhere in a similar environment, I will say even if there is no bias there will always be the suspicion and is difficult to disapprove once that atmosphere sets in.

 

In short, after speaking to others there is a part of the community that said it feels to some that the "pro-endgame teaming" folks are the ones who seem to push for change and get it. Not the farmers, not the casuals, not the role-players, not the solo-ists, and not the die hard pvp'ers. Some have said even some ATs seem to be favored over others.

 

I would like to clarify that I am not stating there "is" bias, only the perception of it, and I expect that perception to grow unless it's specifically addressed. And I am not making any of the above claims, I am only reporting what my discussions with others have said or felt about the recent changes. Personally I sort of see it both ways, they need not be exclusive of one another. Some people's opinion certainly seems to carry more weight than others, at least here in the open forums. I cannot speak to the beta or alpha groups, as I am not a part of them. 

 

One thing I would like to especially highlight though is that people who are involved in such groups stating "there is no bias" only further show such bias, at least to some peoples view who are not a part of said groups.

 

TLDR - There is a growing perception of "the cool kids table," and the perceived members of the "cool kids table" saying there is not a cool kids table, does little to persuade others otherwise. In fact the supposed "cool kids" saying there is no cool kids, only further confirms it, at least to some people.