The On Hold thread

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 minutes ago, Luminara said:

The ego-tripping, self-absorbed nonsense is incredibly entertaining.

So my being unhappy with a developer scolding a player the way one scolds a small child, while also claiming that they don't have time to do so, while also blaming the player-base as a whole for "this is why we can't have nice things", and my unhappy reaction to that is ego-tripping, self-absorbed nonsense?

 

Really, Luminara? Really?

[Ruin Mage]

Look at it from their perspective for a second. Someone makes a new thread accusing the potential of dev tomfoolery when in fact it was the thread owner nuking the thread for...whatever reason.

After what's gone down in that now-hidden thread? I'd get a bit snippy too. Especially if a small number of players keep trying to push that the devs are silencing people.

Unless you are now pushing that one shouldn't get irate at being baselessly accused of censorship.

[blue4333]

4 hours ago, Number Six said:

Back on topic, my point is it was so useful and well-run that some of the players and frequent beta testers who put it together are now devs themselves and creating that content. They put in the effort to make it happen and went from everyday player to tester to so-called in-group to developer. If that's not community involvement I don't know what is.

 

[Ruin Mage]

The Illuminati!?

[Number Six]

14 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

So many demands on your time, but you had plenty of time to jump into this thread and scold a player.

 

No. Your obvious disdain for the people who donate money to keep this server running is.

 

Not disdain for people. Disdain for certain behaviors like immediately attacking the forum moderators and assuming they're being totalitarian thugs out to get them. Something I couldn't believe to be the case, though I did verify to make sure.

 

I apologize to Ukase for being harsh. I shouldn't have let it get under my skin. Based on their comments I think they were just being passionate about something as well. I could have taken a moment to let emotions subside, to formulate something more PR-friendly, something more... "corporate".

 

And yes, you're right that there are many, many other things I'd rather be doing with my time. I'm here, because this is important. The community is important to me.

[Number Six]

4 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

The Illuminati!?

[Mezmera]

3 minutes ago, Number Six said:

I apologize to Ukase for being harsh. I shouldn't have let it get under my skin. Based on their comments I think they were just being passionate about something as well. I could have taken a moment to let emotions subside, to formulate something more PR-friendly, something more... "corporate".

 

No apologies should be necessary.  Original energy comes off much more authentic, my only disappointment is that you didn't come like this: 

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 minutes ago, Number Six said:

Not disdain for people. Disdain for certain behaviors like immediately attacking the forum moderators and assuming they're being totalitarian thugs out to get them.

I would like to respectfully request you to consider the possibility that there's a reason that people are making that assumption, instead of just assuming that we're being immature, or trolls, or whatever.

 

4 minutes ago, Number Six said:

I shouldn't have let it get under my skin. Based on their comments I think they were just being passionate about something as well. I could have taken a moment to let emotions subside, to formulate something more PR-friendly, something more... "corporate".

And for my part I apologize if anything I say offended. In my defense I'll say only that I'm getting really tired of seeing people being attacked on this forum for every single statement that isn't straight up "we love the devs."

[Widower]

4 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I love how so many people seem to think everything the developers and moderators do is all about them lately. 

While I cannot endorse the rest of Luminara's post, I do think this is an important point to consider. When your post gets hidden (especially in Focused Feedback, but anywhere) - it's not a personal insult! It's not any sort of warning! We're not out to get anyone*! And yes, as I think you've all seen, sometimes we do make mistakes. Some of the pruning was overaggressive, and for that we apologize. But we're not trying to censor anyone or whatever, we're just trying to enforce the Code of Conduct and (in the beta forum) the Focused Feedback guidelines. (Which, for the record, are guidelines. I have tried to err on the side of caution and let discussion happen when it is not disruptive, but if it is disruptive, well, what do you think happens?)

 

* okay, I will admit we are out to get people who are consistently massive jerks on the forums - because that's our job! Really, if you don't want your posts hidden, just don't A) be a jerk or B) quote people who are jerks. It's that simple!

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

So my being unhappy with a developer scolding a player the way one scolds a small child, while also claiming that they don't have time to do so, while also blaming the player-base as a whole for "this is why we can't have nice things", and my unhappy reaction to that is ego-tripping, self-absorbed nonsense?

 

Really, Luminara? Really?

The same player who jumped to a conclusion, leveled a cockamamie accusation at the HC team, based entirely on wild conspiracy theories and rampant inflated egos?

 

Start shit, get shit.  And your expectation that the mods and developers should be required to take shit constantly and not fire back is... fucking stupid.  They're not obligated to sit there and take it up the ass simply because you think they should have to.  This isn't their job, no, you cannot speak with their manager, no you cannot get them fired, no, no-one is going to give a flying fuck if you leave the store in a huff.  This is their hobby, they're doing this because they choose to, and they have as much right to stand up for themselves as anyone else here does.  Get the fuck over it.

[roleki]

Maybe the takeaway from all this should be that, aside from some tourists, everyone who is still here obviously cares a lot about the game.  What we care about, we tend to become emotional about.  That's humanity for you.  

 

If the userbase has worn away to mostly just the die-hards, it should not come as a surprise that our feedback and interactions are going to occasionally spark a rise in emotions, and we are not always going to look our best in those circumstances.

 

It shouldn't be very difficult to rally together a small community of people who really care about the game.  It's not a sense of 'entitlement' that leads us to wish the Devs would open up on their thought process and where this is all going.  It's the search for anything that will convince us that we are wrong about our assumptions of what is actually happening.  In an environment without that, who could blame people for the paranoia and mistrust that foments in its absence?

[Troo]

@GM Widower

The removal of posts tends to be the flash point which results in a player ban. Just an observation.

Hence the perception of 'silencing' players by staff.

It's an unfortunate coincidence that those silenced just happened to have the opposing opinion.

 

A lot of what happens on the forums is self inflicted.. on all sides.

[Troo]

7 minutes ago, roleki said:

It's the search for anything that will convince us that we are wrong about our assumptions of what is actually happening.

 

This is spot on.

[Luminara]

28 minutes ago, Number Six said:

formulate something more PR-friendly, something more... "corporate".

 

Why should you stop being you for the sake of a non-existent corporate entity that you don't represent and aren't employed by?  Is this going on your CV?  "Maintained a professional demeanor during interactions on a video game forum, despite being belittled, reviled and the subject of numerous conspiracy theories by bat-shit crazy motherfuckers who thought they were 'all that and a side of chips'"?  Are you the person Karen is finally going to speak to, after all of these years?

No?  Then keep being you.  Reminders that the HC team are people, too, are necessary, even in the best of times.

[PeregrineFalcon]

10 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Why should you stop being you for the sake of a non-existent corporate entity that you don't represent and aren't employed by?  Is this going on your CV?  "Maintained a professional demeanor during interactions on a video game forum, despite being belittled, reviled and the subject of numerous conspiracy theories by bat-shit crazy motherfuckers who thought they were 'all that and a side of chips'"?  Are you the person Karen is finally going to speak to, after all of these years?

No?  Then keep being you.  Reminders that the HC team are people, too, are necessary, even in the best of times.

Oh, Lumi.

 

It's not bad enough that you're ascribing a bunch of attitudes and motivations to me that simply aren't true, but now you're giving a dev grief for wanting to NOT be a jerk to the player base?  🤪

[Ruin Mage]

You're both pretty.

[Seed22]

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

 

Not disdain for people. Disdain for certain behaviors like immediately attacking the forum moderators and assuming they're being totalitarian thugs out to get them. Something I couldn't believe to be the case, though I did verify to make sure.

 

I apologize to Ukase for being harsh. I shouldn't have let it get under my skin. Based on their comments I think they were just being passionate about something as well. I could have taken a moment to let emotions subside, to formulate something more PR-friendly, something more... "corporate".

 

And yes, you're right that there are many, many other things I'd rather be doing with my time. I'm here, because this is important. The community is important to me.

I dont blame the GMs, I always blame the forums being well, the forums. I assume that certain posters will post, and pardon my french, but utterly stupid shit( some have even decided to show up here :P), both for and against the devs. 
 

But, I don’t blame all the GM’s for moderation here.

 

That does NOT mean I think they’re infalliable, they’ve made plenty mistakes, and will continue to do so because they’re just players like the rest of us. What cant be fixed is the same  sycophants on both sides spewing their crap.

 

 

 

[Bionic_Flea]

7 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

same  sycophants

 

Are you calling me a psycho elephant?

[Seed22]

1 minute ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

Are you calling me a psycho elephant?

Something something elephant 😛

[Troo]

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

sycophants

 

Ooo... good word.

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Troo

[Number Six]

Quote

sycophants

 

Not to be confused with

 

+

[Oubliette_Red]

I find that when someone respond to a post in an overly aggressive manner, they are not viewing or processing said post solely on what was written but are falvouring it with their own attitude. It's just text and unless read in as neutral a voice as possible, people will assume belligerence/rage/disdain/hyperbole/etc. because that's the mentality they are viewing it from, not whatever the poster wrote.

 

We all tend to have an initial gut reaction to a post that may get our hackles up. I find it best to read over any response I've types out before posting, re-read the post I'm responding to, then view both as neutral as possible. I may change wording or the entire thing, or just delete it altogether and move on.

 

[RunoKnows]

2 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I would like to respectfully request you to consider the possibility that there's a reason that people are making that assumption, instead of just assuming that we're being immature, or trolls, or whatever.

 

And for my part I apologize if anything I say offended. In my defense I'll say only that I'm getting really tired of seeing people being attacked on this forum for every single statement that isn't straight up "we love the devs."

You aren't being "attacked" because you aren't 'straight up saying you love the devs'. I do find it interesting that people that share your stance conveniently ignore the fact that, if or when people 'attack' you, it's due to the way people voice their dissent or disagreements. It isn't wrong to believe that impending changes look like they won't be fun. What is wrong is if someone attempts to excuse their childish behavior, and then when they do get scolded for it, they immediately respond with "I can't believe you just slapped me on the wrist!"

 

No one is asking the world of you here; no one is asking you to write up a 50-page minimum essay about why [change someone disagrees with] needs work, or anything even CLOSE to that. People are asking those who have, do, and will disagree with changes past, present and future to carry on rational discussions or even outright debates without jumping to baseless accusations. But when they're asked to do the bare minimum, when they actually need to put in any measure of work to have a say that isn't just 'screaming on the forums', for some reason those same users don't have the time or energy to walk the walk. Feedback and criticism ARE crucial parts of the process, but the way we voice our criticism is key

 

I just want to stress that this is basic etiquette that is present in any official game testing environments. Not 'development', specifically game TESTING. Literally any invite-only/application-only alpha or beta test that a player like you or I can join in on, they all share a particular expectation: "Communicate like adults, even if you don't agree with a change or someone else's opinions". Those testing environments don't need people who are so passionate about the game that they go off the rails when they find patch notes that just make their blood boil; those testing environments need people that are capable of making logical and fair examinations of pending gameplay changes, without distracting from the point by drowning the conversation in drama

 

I miss when this game's only flavor of the month deal was unusual builds and not Baskin-Robbins' 31 flavors of conspiracy theories.

Edited October 10, 2022 by RunoKnows
I must be a level 1 wizard because I can't spell (typos)

[Saikochoro]

9 minutes ago, RunoKnows said:

You aren't being "attacked" because you aren't 'straight up saying you love the devs'. I do find it interesting that people that share your stance conveniently ignore the fact that, if or when people 'attack' you, it's due to the way people voice their dissent or disagreements. It isn't wrong to believe that impending changes look like they won't be fun. What is wrong is if someone attempts to excuse their childish behavior, and then when they do get scolded for it, they immediately respond with "I can't believe you just slapped me on the wrist!"

 

No one is asking the world of you here; no one is asking you to write up a 50-page minimum essay about why [change someone disagrees with] needs work, or anything even CLOSE to that. People are asking those who have, do, and will disagree with changes past, present and future to carry on rational discussions or even outright debates without jumping to baseless accusations. But when they're asked to do the bare minimum, when they actually need to put in any measure of work to have a say that isn't just 'screaming on the forums', for some reason those same users don't have the time or energy to walk the walk. Feedback and criticism ARE crucial parts of the process, but the way we voice our criticism is key

 

I just want to stress that this is basic etiquette that is present in any official game testing environments. Not 'development', specifically game TESTING. Literally any invite-only/application-only alpha or beta test that a player like you or I can join in on, they all share a particular expectation: "Communicate like adults, even if you don't agree with a change or someone else's opinions". Those testing environments don't need people who are so passionate about the game that they go off the rails when they find patch notes that just make their blood boil; those testing environments need people that are capable of making logical and fair examinations of pending gameplay changes, without distracting from the point by drowning the conversation in drama

 

I miss when this game's only flavor of the month deal was unusual builds and not Baskin-Robbins' 31 flavors of conspiracy theories.

Childish behavior is not solely unique to those who don’t like changes. I agree that it does happen, but that is not always the case. There have been many times when people test a change, provide thoughtful feedback without any “childish behavior” and then proceed to get ridiculed for it. So they defend themselves and it turns into arguments. 
 

The assumption that childish behavior is unique to those expressing dislike of a change or even always starts with them is completely false. And yet you lump the whole group in with that false accusation and summarily dismiss them and their concerns. 

[RunoKnows]

6 minutes ago, Saikochoro said:

Childish behavior is not solely unique to those who don’t like changes. I agree that it does happen, but that is not always the case. There have been many times when people test a change, provide thoughtful feedback without any “childish behavior” and then proceed to get ridiculed for it. So they defend themselves and it turns into arguments. 
 

The assumption that childish behavior is unique to those expressing dislike of a change or even always starts with them is completely false. And yet you lump the whole group in with that false accusation and summarily dismiss them and their concerns. 

I'm not referring to people who dislike change, and I'm not talking about the people who voice their disagreements in a level-headed manner only to get ridiculed for it. I am talking about those who cannot express their dislike or disagreement without needless entitlement or childish behavior

 

For that matter, jumping on users who DO have valid critique is equally bad behavior, but it doesn't excuse the kind of aggression and hostility that some players choose to communicate with

 

Again, not all changes are going to be well-received. In fact, a lot of changes will probably look very rough at best or outright bad at worst. That is why feedback and active testing is so important. Letting the devs know when the community sees a change in testing that we don't like is 100% necessary, because that's how you wind up tossing out all the quartz and refining any diamonds in the rough.