Why is Assault Rifle bad, and how could it be better?

[Galaxy Brain]

3 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

I'm not an end-gamer. I don't care about what happens in x8 maps. I'm not a farmer.

 

In team use sub 50, between assault rifle and ice blast, ice blast lags behind unless my character's secondary is martial arts.

The linked thread shows that I did not use end game builds, relying on only SOs and even then only the primary blast set. x8 emulates being on a team where youd have a ton of targets. If you are lvl 35 and on a full team, the x8 tests I did would emulate (on avg) the impact that set has on a team where the faster avg clear times tend to have better performance in a crowd.

 

Im not saying that AR is garbage, it can work great! However when compared to other blast sets it has shortcomings where it should have perks.

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The linked thread shows that I did not use end game builds,

 

I'm not seeing how the post you directed me to shows that. I don't see anything about power used, rotation, slotting, etc.

The terms AVG and Swing are not defined.

[Galaxy Brain]

40 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

I'm not seeing how the post you directed me to shows that. I don't see anything about power used, rotation, slotting, etc.

The terms AVG and Swing are not defined.

The OP of that thread has a link to the Scrapper thread, which goes into more details (on mobile atm so links are weird). AVG refers to the Average time, Swing is the time difference between the set's average and the overall average (for example, you could "swing" 50s slower or faster than the average).

 

If youd like, the mission used is available on both live and Beta to try out in any settings youd like to compare AR to Ice. I have run both sets about 40 times each now between SOs, IOs, and different map/enemy configs and that experience has been pretty insightful! If not that map, comparing the two in any way youd like I think would be a great exercise and would bring more data to the table to show whete each set's strengths lie.

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Galaxy Brain

[TheZag]

The way to fix Assault Rifle is to rename it to FrankenRifle and make a new set called Assault Rifle that uses bullets for most of its attacks.  Frankengun users get to keep their mashup of gun-ish related abilities and the new AR could employ updated mechanics.

 

[TheZag]

The trusty Zorg ZF-1 Pod weapon.  We are missing a few of the better features though.  Name it Pod Rifle if you dont prefer comedy,  but i think the Zorg portion would possibly step on copyright or trademark toes.  Of course we could just withhold information about the red button from the lawyers.

 

[PoptartsNinja]

What currently existing attacks could we cannibalize into a Battle Rifle set? Let's assume, just for the sake of it, that the underslung grenade launcher is still OK.

T1) Single Shot

T2) Burst

T3) Heavy Burst

T4) M30-Grenade

T5) Aim

T6) Snipe

T7) Bullet Barrage (Source: Commando w/ Tactical Upgrade) as like a single-target full auto for a heavy single target damage attack?

T8) I want to put Surveillance here but I think it's in one of the PPPs. Stealing the Mercenary Commando's flashbang grenade seems wrong for a blast set. Venom Grenade is definitely out. I feel like the set needs something to help with lethal resistance, so we'll say Acid Grenade a small (4m?) aoe minor damage with -Resistance(lethal)

T9) Full Auto? Full Auto Sweep (Full Auto with a much shorter but much wider (120 to 180)-degree cone so it's not just a 100% carbon copy)

 

Some problems I see with this theoretical set:

- All lethal damage, unless you sneak some smashing into M30 grenade. The set really needs a way to do some -Resistance(Lethal) for the endgame but absolutely shouldn't get Venom Grenade, which should stay unique to SoA.
- Most of the damaging powers (burst, heavy burst, bullet barrage, and full auto) are DOTs which means recharge time is less important than animation time.

- Comparatively poor AoE

 

 

And, since we're at it Resistance Rifle for people like me who would love a chance to shoot those pretty blue pew pew lasers at people (and since the odds of us getting a resistance PEAT are basically nill)

T1) Single Shot (Lethal/Energy), Foe -Regen

T2) Burst (Lethal/Energy), Foe -Regen

T3) Covering Fire (Lethal/Energy) Cone, Foe -Spd, -Rech

T4) Overcharged Shot (Energy) Targeted AoE, small fire DoT

T5) Resistance Targeting Drone (toggle: self +perception, very minor +ToHit) or Aim if this is OP

T6) Aimed Shot (Lethal/Energy) Snipe, Knockdown

T7) Fusilade (Lethal/Energy) Cone, Foe -Regen

T8) Photon Grenade because I ran out of Resistance attacks and didn't think we needed Covering Fire, Fusilade, and Heavy Burst, but Heavy Burst could also work as a no-frills high damage cone.

T9) Orbital Lance (Energy) Targeted AoE Knockdown

 

 

And since we're adding more rifle sets, let's look at a minimal-redraw Blaster secondary for rifle sets. This is designed to put the gun away as few times as possible but unfortunately not really usable for sets that don't have a gun. I wanted to avoid stepping on Devices/Traps so no mines. This only really works if we wind up with enough rifle sets to make giving them a dedicated "Manipulation" set worthwhile

 

Having trouble thinking up a name for this one. CQC Training? Commando? Survival Specialist?

T1) Toxic Web Grenade single target immob+DoT, fired from the rifle

T2) Pummel secretly the most fun power in the game

T3) Cryo Grenade single target hold, fired from the rifle

T4) Build Up (builds a small house at the user's location)

T5) Muzzle Strike Bayonet's animation but smashing/knockdown because very few of the non-Arachnos assault rifle models have visible bayonets.

T6) Survivor (Auto: +MaxHP, +recovery) stolen from the Praetorian Resistance and tweaked

T7) Flashbang Grenade Targed AoE -Perception, -Acc, chance for Mag2 stun (definitely generates aggro Flash Arrow), fired from the rifle

T8) Combat Reload Immediately recharge all primary powers (fixed 300+ second recharge?)

T9) Buttstroke Pummel but with the damage cranked up to 8 (not 11, because pummel is fast compared to things like Golden Dragonfly and Total Focus) and no secondary effect

 

I think Build Up is the only thing that puts the gun away. Unfortunately we can't really do Bayonet for one of the melee attacks because only the Vanguard Rifles have those and pummel is the only other "hit them with the gun" power we have. Fortunately, Pummel is great. Depending on how wonky the animations are it might be possible to steal one of Staff Fighting's animations for a PBAoE with the gun, but I expect that would look incredibly silly so I kept all the melee single target.

[TheZag]

1 hour ago, PoptartsNinja said:

T9) Full Auto? Full Auto Sweep (Full Auto with a much shorter but much wider (120 to 180)-degree cone so it's not just a 100% carbon copy)

 

Name it Spray and Pray and you have my support.

 

[Rudra]

Just now, Krimson said:

As one of the five players who uses the set, I have no problem with Assault Rifle. 

I think there may actually be 10 of us. 😜

[Zepp]

I definitely don't want aim, however it does not sufficiently compensate for the loss of damage from lack of aim. Overall, the set could use a slight damage boost and maybe some other minor adjustments, but it is nor as bad as many others think.

[biostem]

So I've been leveling up an AR/Invuln Sentinel in response to this thread.  I don't know if it's really a fair test, as they get a single target flamethrower attack instead of the snipe.  Either way, the approach that seems the most effective for me was to slot a KB->KD IO in M30 grenade, then cycle between that and buckshot to try and keep enemies on their butts, then use flamethrower and full auto to whittle the enemies down.  I skipped burst, and instead use disorienting shot, slug, and incinerator against single enemies.  The performance thus far isn't bad, and it's nice having so many cones/AoEs at my disposal.  Saying all that, they don't seem exceptional compared to my DP, fire, or any of my other sentinels for that matter.  They're fun, but just don't have the "oomph" that other ranged blast sets convey...

[srmalloy]

7 hours ago, Zepp said:

I definitely don't want aim, however it does not sufficiently compensate for the loss of damage from lack of aim. Overall, the set could use a slight damage boost and maybe some other minor adjustments, but it is nor as bad as many others think.

If the 'fix' consists of reworking the entire powerset to have different powers that work differently from the existing powers and reordered, I would rather see that as a completely new powerset -- "Gunnery" or some such. If you're going to 'fix' Assault Rifle, do it in a way that preserves the existing powers so that every AR character doesn't have to burn respecs to get their character back to even a semblance of what it was before the changes.

[Zepp]

4 hours ago, srmalloy said:

If the 'fix' consists of reworking the entire powerset to have different powers that work differently from the existing powers and reordered, I would rather see that as a completely new powerset -- "Gunnery" or some such. If you're going to 'fix' Assault Rifle, do it in a way that preserves the existing powers so that every AR character doesn't have to burn respecs to get their character back to even a semblance of what it was before the changes.

My thoughts were that we should be looking at minor tweaks rather than an overhaul.
Increase damage across the board.

Buckshot -> increase damage more than other powers, change to KD, increase the arc of the cone
M30 Grenade -> decrease cast time
Ignite -> increase the radius, adjust the ticks so that they have the same amount of damage over roughly the same amount of time, but with fewer ticks to mitigate issues with fear

Full Auto -> increase the arc

 

Beanbag -> this is my controversial take. Beanbag doesn't fit the set well. To make it a better fit, increase damage, decrease the recharge to 8s, decrease to mag 2. Doing this allows you to use it as conventional damage with a stun that can be stacked effectively.

 

That way the set keeps its style while improving overall performance to be in line with other sets.

[srmalloy]

21 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Full Auto -> increase the arc

I would like to see the target cap increased for FA; there are a number of ways for you to increase the beaten zone of the attack, but no matter how big an area you sweep with fire, you're only hitting a more limited number of targets compared to the other AoE T9s, particularly with them all losing their end crash, taking away one of the advantages FA had back on Live.

[Wavicle]

Rad Blast, Beam Rifle and more get mag 3 controls that do good damage. No particular need to reduce Bean Bag mag to give it damage.

[Zepp]

8 hours ago, srmalloy said:

I would like to see the target cap increased for FA; there are a number of ways for you to increase the beaten zone of the attack, but no matter how big an area you sweep with fire, you're only hitting a more limited number of targets compared to the other AoE T9s, particularly with them all losing their end crash, taking away one of the advantages FA had back on Live.

Target cap is the other issue. I didn't want to open that can of worms in my quickly scribbled post though...

 

7 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Rad Blast, Beam Rifle and more get mag 3 controls that do good damage. No particular need to reduce Bean Bag mag to give it damage.

Good point, Rad Blast - Cosmic Burst is a good model (half the recharge, but still does damage and a mag 3. My thought was that reducing it to eight seconds while maintaining the current duration would make it easier to stack and thus allow the possibility of using it to CC a Boss or Elite Boss. That being said, I was just writing up a quick rundown of one possible way to fix it without an overhaul. Any changes will likely need to be playtested and tinkered with to make them viable.

[Weylin]

Maybe the beanbag could be an armor piercing rocket?

Still does the mag 3 stun to one target, but with an added S/L -Res in an AoE?

 

That should help mitigate the issue of S/L being so heavily resisted everywhere, and lean a little more into the AoE of the set, would help FA anyhow.

 

I wonder, is it possible for an AoE ability to have mixed effects like that? The single target stun, AoE -res, and making that debuff only effective on targets with S/L above 0%?

[Saiyajinzoningen]

On 12/29/2022 at 5:25 PM, Krimson said:

As one of the five players who uses the set, I have no problem with Assault Rifle. 

as the 6th player who uses the set i have no issue with AR. In fact while it may not be cream of the crop damage wise,  it's very fun to play. yes flamethrower has issues but so do all the other similar powers. So its less of a flamethrower problem and more of a "these rooted cone powers need a rework" issue

[biostem]

So I've gotten my AR/Invuln Sentinel up to 50 and into Incarnates.  Thus farm, my observations are that the key is to leverage the cones, (buckshot, flamethrower, and full auto), and to leverage M30 w/ a KB->KD as a form of soft control.  One big plus for me is that the attacks are very no-nonsense and direct, which I like.  I haven't messed around with my other builds yet, but I find that I'm not using incinerator that much due to the longish animation time and preferring up-front damage over its DoT, so may skip it on another build.  I've also been using the fire APP on that build, and while the AoE immob, hold, and heal are nice, I think I may branch out into a different APP/PPP to see what's more effective...

[ScarySai]

Damage typing, long cast times, poor ability tuning, no build up and lower target caps would be the major issues.

Edited January 5, 2023 by ScarySai

[Rudra]

Build Up is melee and Aim is ranged. Blasters and Corruptors get Aim. Also, the loss of Aim in AR is not a "major" issue. As for cast times?

 

Archery T1:             Aimed Shot: 1.67 cast time.

Assault Rifle T1:        Burst: 1.0 cast time.

Beam Rifle T1:         Charged Shot: 1.67 cast time.

Dark Blast T1:         Dark Blast: 1.0 cast time.

Dual Pistols T1:       Dual Wield: 1.67 cast time.

Electrical Blast T1:   Charged Bolts: 1.0 cast time.

Energy Blast T1:      Power Blast: 1.67 cast time.

Fire Blast T1:           Fire Blast: 1.67 cast time.

Ice Blast T1:            Ice Blast: 1.67 cast time.

Psychic Blast T1:      Mental Blast: 1.67 cast time.

Radiation Blast T1:  Neutrino Bolt: 1.0 cast time.

Seismic Blast T1:      Encase: 1.0 cast time.

Sonic Attack T1:      Scream: 1.47 cast time.

Water Blast T1:        Aqua Bolt: 1.0 cast time.

 

All data pulled from City of Data.

 

I just started with the T1s. I can do the T2s through T9s too. Assault Rifle has the fastest cast times. Especially when you get to the snipe.

[Zect]

The only truly slow non-nuke powers are the snipe (2.904) and flamethrower (2.508), and the latter is compensated for with ridiculously fast cast times on buckshot. If anyone thinks AR is slow, try playing BR.

 

People claim that AR has poor damage typing and no T3 blast. However, AR has always had a T3 blast, and one with the best damtype (fire) at that: ignite. If it catches even 1 extra mob in the patch, it gainss a massive dps advantage. It is left up to the player how to leverage Ignite so that it is an effective T3 blast, making AR a skill-dependent set that offers a different playstyle (a good thing!) This is why I say people do not have a good understanding of how to play AR if they think it's bad. Before asking for buffs, it's critical to first gain a correct understanding of how a set functions, and learn how to play it effectively.

 

The one valid gripe with Full Auto is that it does not fit neatly into the current, oppressive dps meta. And that's not as much a problem with AR as it is with other sets. Essentially, a lot of formerly crashing nukes now sit at an optimal breakpoint where they recharge almost within every-spawn usage range, with 145s base rech. AR, as a set without aim and without such a nuke, does not wipe screenfuls of mobs with a click, leading to misconceptions that it is bad. What I would like to see is these formerly crashing nukes have their rech scale tweaked so that they are pushed sufficiently far out of this range and the damage scale either increased or decreased to match. They should either be available no more than 1/3 spawns on permahasten builds, or have comparable rech and damage to full auto.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Zect

[Saiyajinzoningen]

2 hours ago, Zect said:

The only truly slow non-nuke powers are the snipe (2.904) and flamethrower (2.508), and the latter is compensated for with ridiculously fast cast times on buckshot. If anyone thinks AR is slow, try playing BR.

 

People claim that AR has poor damage typing and no T3 blast. However, AR has always had a T3 blast, and one with the best damtype (fire) at that: ignite. If it catches even 1 extra mob in the patch, it gainss a massive dps advantage. It is left up to the player how to leverage Ignite so that it is an effective T3 blast, making AR a skill-dependent set that offers a different playstyle (a good thing!) This is why I say people do not have a good understanding of how to play AR if they think it's bad. Before asking for buffs, it's critical to first gain a correct understanding of how a set functions, and learn how to play it effectively.

 

The one valid gripe with Full Auto is that it does not fit neatly into the current, oppressive dps meta. And that's not as much a problem with AR as it is with other sets. Essentially, a lot of formerly crashing nukes now sit at an optimal breakpoint where they recharge almost within every-spawn usage range, with 145s base rech. AR, as a set without aim and without such a nuke, does not wipe screenfuls of mobs with a click, leading to misconceptions that it is bad. What I would like to see is these formerly crashing nukes have their rech scale tweaked so that they are pushed sufficiently far out of this range and the damage scale either increased or decreased to match. They should either be available no more than 1/3 spawns on permahasten builds, or have comparable rech and damage to full auto.

 

 

 

 

dude ive been playing AR for years (love it) if what you say about ignite is true, then AR is even better than i thought. Do the enemies run in fear or huddle? (askin for a friend whos too cheap to respec)

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Zect said:

The only truly slow non-nuke powers are the snipe (2.904)

You're right. AR's snipe is 2.904 seconds. As opposed to Psychic Blast's snipe at 3.0 seconds and the other snipes at 3.33+ seconds. AR isn't slow. Even quick form AR snipe is average for cast time since it actually gets time added to its cast time to make up for how insanely fast it would otherwise be without the interrupt time. (Edit: I otherwise agree with you that AR rocks.)

Edited January 5, 2023 by Rudra

[Zect]

47 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

dude ive been playing AR for years (love it) if what you say about ignite is true, then AR is even better than i thought. Do the enemies run in fear or huddle? (askin for a friend whos too cheap to respec)

---

They run (it’s afraid, not terrorized).

 

If you are on a team, the armored AT’s will be able to keep enemies in place nonetheless. This is the intended usage for support AT’s such as corrs and fenders. (Teamwork! The heresy!) You can then have an attack chain of burst > ignite > burst > snipe.

 

Most blasters also have the option of replacing one of the bursts with their T1 immob from the 2ndary, in which case they can do it alone. The T1 immob does damage, and done correctly this is only a slight dps loss. (Creative use of multiple powers in combination! Impossible!) 

 

Though now I want to try the idea that popped into my head when I last demolished an “AR is terrible” thread: using the frozen blast immob proc in Ignite to see if I can get it to stick enemies in its own burn patch. The more I think about it, the funnier it gets.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Zect

[Saiyajinzoningen]

that's only 3.5 enemies per min wouldn't web envelope from patron be better?