Brute's Advantage

[Snarky]

17 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

This thread has no value until @Snarky chimes in.

This whole topic is dead.

 

Brutes have been steadily nerfed since they were created.  In time Sentinels will slowly be buffed.  They might meet in the middle.

 

I was thinking of moving from a Brute and onto a Tank as my main.  But after much twisted musings I have surprised myself and decided on a Corruptor.

 

Either Brutes will be nerfed again (high probability, no not a straight obvious nerf, just a sideways screw you) or Tanks will be buffed (moderate possibility, straight up buff or general in game boost that affects them more than most)  because the current Dev staff values one Traditional Tank and the WoW paradigm for Leagues and teams.  Brutes do not fit into their mindset and are viewed with skepticism and suspicion at best, outright hostility on a more aggressive page publish.

 

There, I posted.  Back over to Corruptor forum.

 

Lock this bitch.

[Doomguide2005]

Thread is dead.  Well if that doesn't involve some Snarky I'm not sure what sort of plot is involved.

[Wavicle]

Brutes are fine. They do hit harder than Tankers, they just don't hit as many foes at once. Against a single enemy or a smaller group, the Brute does more damage. On teams they can be as tough as Tankers. There's no problem to be solved here. These two AT's are as balanced as they need to be.

[JasperStone]

10 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Thread is dead.  Well if that doesn't involve some Snarky I'm not sure what sort of plot is involved.

Nemesis

...

Always Nemesis

[Doomguide2005]

2 hours ago, JasperStone said:

Nemesis

...

Always Nemesis

Probably though I was thinking more along the lines of space in the local graveyard.  But wait maybe Snarky is Nemesis.

[Galaxy Brain]

23 hours ago, Rudra said:

Okay, went back and threw a Brute version of the Elec/Elec Tanker with the exact same enhancements together again and compared them to each other. I don't know what I did. I'm not duplicating the problem I saw that started this thread. I apologize.

 

I'm going to sit down and eat my crow in peace. Can I get a mod to lock this thread? Not going to hide it behind the Hide option.

 

Edit: For reference:

 

 

I've been there! Looking between two things then realizing like... halfway that one was a bit off lol. 

 

I think this convo still had merit as we didn't talk about the AoE performance between the two, something @Ston has looked at in their round of testing between Tank/Brute/Scrap with identical builds.

 

 

[Zect]

You're completely correct.

 

Tanks have been repeatedly buffed to placate the dps-heavy meta, to the point that in many cases they now have a more optimal ratio of survivability : offense than brutes do.

 

You're also completely correct that the right solution is to nerf tanker damage. Specifically, they should not have 0.95 melee damage scale (increased from 0.80). That is far too high and there is no world in which an armored AT with tanker defenses should have 95% of a blaster's base melee damage.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Tanks should certainly be nerfed.  Their reward to risk ratio is an order of magnitude better than anything else.  
 

They won’t be, since people on the development team chose where they wanted their tank mages to be.

[AlabasterKnight]

After reading all the back and forth, I kept thinking how everyone is splitting hairs slinging numbers and overlooking the fact that despite nuances, the ability to choose from four dedicated melee types (scrapper, brute, tanker, stalker) doesn't leave much room for differentiation if they all don't have a unique purpose - numbers be damned.
Arguably - the four since they were not intended to occupy both red and blue are going to step on toes. All have offense and defense that makes them survivable regardless depending on a player's affinity and ability to use them.

So maybe  better question is to ask what can you have a brute *do* that one of the other three doesn't already do? Brute was a role you needed red side in ancient times... but now they're extra...

They need purpose.

Edited January 9, 2023 by AlabasterKnight
spelling

[Snarky]

4 minutes ago, AlabasterKnight said:

After reading all the back and forth, I kept thinking how everyone is splitting hairs slinging numbers and overlooking the fact that despite nuances, the ability to choose form four dedicated melee types (scrapper, brute, tanker, stalker) doesn't leave much room for differentiation if they all don't have a unique purpose - numbers be damned.
Arguably - the four since they were not intended to occupy both red and blue are going to step on toes. All have offense and defense that makes them survivable regardless depending on a player's affinity and ability to use them.

So maybe  better question is to ask what can you have a brute *do* that one of the other three doesn't already do? Brute was a role you needed red side in ancient times... but now they're extra...

They need purpose.

Splitting hairs?  Brutes have been nerf slapped consistently since before the snap. Tanks have been lavished with buffs, power increases, Area inctreases.  Split hairs?  It is raining toupees...

[lemming]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

Splitting hairs?  Brutes have been nerf slapped consistently since before the snap. Tanks have been lavished with buffs, power increases, Area inctreases.  Split hairs?  It is raining toupees...

Only buff I can think of off the top of my head is that fury builds faster

[Wavicle]

That’s because Brutes were insanely op at release, naturally they’ve mostly gotten nerfs and not buffs.

 

I agree that Tanks probably got buffed a little too much though.

[nihilii]

11 hours ago, Wavicle said:

That’s because Brutes were insanely op at release, naturally they’ve mostly gotten nerfs and not buffs.

 

I agree that Tanks probably got buffed a little too much though.

It's amusing to me as a shameless powergaming munchkin, I went from "all Brutes no Tankers" on Live to "all Tankers no Brutes" in today's Homecoming.

The pendulum took a long time to swing back, and to be fair much of the difference also came down to Scrappers going from weaker Brutes to offensive juggernauts with their ATOs and other changes.

[Wavicle]

Maybe instead of the Radius changes and +5% base damage it should have been more like +2.5%...

[Snarky]

Brutes garbage ATOs.  Another example of a hidden nerf.  Brutes ATO procs give Fury, Regen, and End.  If you are playing CoH while drooling in your oatmeal and idly wondering when your thorazine will wear off then this might be useful.  If you can play and build this is garbage puke kiss. Fury (thanks to the great fury nerf FU) is not a problem to gather and caps out, which this proc blithely ignores.  Regen is a joke, and if you are having endurance issues get to 50 incarnate and get a real fix or delete the toon.  Or go to any builder and they will tell you the basics.  The Brute ATO procs are a kick right in the nuts by Devs who laugh at Brute players.

 

Scrappers: TWO valuable Crit procs (both platinum, together a platinum ring with a diamond setting)

 

Tanker: A resist proc (gold) and an absorb shield (silver)

[PoptartsNinja]

Having functional, reliable T9s with less bonkers values and greatly reduced/outright removed crashes would benefit Brutes quite a lot, I think.

 

Since many T9s grant a recovery buff for the duration--and since Brute effectiveness goes up the longer they can stay in combat--being able to pop the T9 every 5 minutes or so without worry of dying instantly the moment the crash hits would be a pretty significant QoL change.

[AlabasterKnight]

On 1/6/2023 at 6:26 PM, Snarky said:

Splitting hairs?  Brutes have been nerf slapped consistently since before the snap. (((ETC ETC ETC))))

 

You missed the point:
What is it that a Brute is supposed to do that the other three major melee archetypes do not? (Notice That I didn't ask about numbers and procs and technical issues...)
Tanks hold aggro and tank best.
Scrappers are damage damage damage.

Stalkers are stealth kings.

What role does a Brute fulfill that these do not?
You solve that Snarky, and the only toupee you need fits on that nosferatu lookin' avatar of yours.

Edited January 9, 2023 by AlabasterKnight
spelling

[Glacier Peak]

23 minutes ago, AlabasterKnight said:

You missed the point:
What is it that a Brute is supposed to do that the other three major melee archetypes do not? (Notice That I didn't ask about numbers and procs and technical issues...)
Tanks hold aggro and tank best.
Scrappers are damage damage damage.

Stalkers are stealth kings.

What role does a Brute fulfill that these do not?
You solve that Snarky, and the only toupee you need fits on that nosferatu lookin' avatar of yours.

What role does the Hulk fill? Smash!

 

It always seemed to me that the Brute was created as a close approximation of both a Scrapper and a Tanker for Villains when CoV was released. It wasn't that interesting to me, and I never created a Brute on live because of that. The only Brute I've made on Homecoming is for farming, but that's an easy / basic character to use for a single specifically designed purpose. 

 

So to answer your question, from my perspective, the Brute Archetype has never really had a unique role as you described for the other Melee Archetypes (I'll let the fact that you didn't mention HEATS or VEATS slip by, noting that both have access to Taunt powers, similar damage output, and nearly identical damage mitigation capacity).

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, AlabasterKnight said:

 

You missed the point:
What is it that a Brute is supposed to do that the other three major melee archetypes do not? (Notice That I didn't ask about numbers and procs and technical issues...)
Tanks hold aggro and tank best.
Scrappers are damage damage damage.

Stalkers are stealth kings.

What role does a Brute fulfill that these do not?
You solve that Snarky, and the only toupee you need fits on that nosferatu lookin' avatar of yours.

So.... You missed the whole City of Villains era didn't you...?

[Take One]

16 hours ago, Snarky said:

Scrappers: TWO valuable Crit procs (both platinum, together a platinum ring with a diamond setting)

 

If you wouldn't play your AT without their ATOs, is the AT really complete?

Some people say Scrappers are "unplayable" without the ATOs to shore up their crit chances.

Since Brute ATOs are kind of skippable that must mean that Brutes are still too powerful.

[Snarky]

5 hours ago, Take One said:

Since Brute ATOs are kind of skippable that must mean that Brutes are still too powerful.

Or it could mean the Devs who designed the ATOs wanted to backhand nerf Brutes by boosting other ATs.....because they just do not care for Brutes.  Or it could mean something different than that.

 

But yes, I agree you can take any event and build a world view around it.  Religious leaders and politicians make bank off that.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

Or it could mean the Devs who designed the ATOs wanted to backhand nerf Brutes by boosting other ATs.....because they just do not care for Brutes.  Or it could mean something different than that.

 

But yes, I agree you can take any event and build a world view around it.  Religious leaders and politicians make bank off that.

 

ATIOs should not determine if an AT is balanced or not. All the ATs should have good balance. The original devs just built things without thought. ATOs being good should be completely separate from AT balance. Same situation with Procs and AT balance. If I need to proc something up the waazoo for me to feel it's decent, then it isn't decent in the first place.

[Snarky]

20 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

ATIOs should not determine if an AT is balanced or not. All the ATs should have good balance. The original devs just built things without thought. ATOs being good should be completely separate from AT balance. Same situation with Procs and AT balance. If I need to proc something up the waazoo for me to feel it's decent, then it isn't decent in the first place.

Yet it is blatantly obvious some ATs won the lottery with their ATOs and other ATs got a wishin sandwich 

[Luminara]

5 hours ago, Snarky said:

Yet it is blatantly obvious some ATs won the lottery with their ATOs and other ATs got a wishin sandwich 

 

[Snarky]

Damn.  Just.  Damn.  Well played