What to do about excess cash?

[MHertz]

There’s no question in my mind that there’s a lot of cash floating around in the game, at least with certain players for whom that is a goal (or an unintended side effect of long-lived characters and nothing to spend the money on).

 

Should there be some system that gives such players something to spend their money on? Or something to slow down the acquisition of cash at the top levels? What would be fun? What would players accept?

 

For fun things, how about:

 

• Pay 25m, trigger a giant monster spawn in that zone.
• Pay 50m, trigger an enemy invasion of your SG base.
• Pay 100m, trigger a zone invasion.
• Pay 10m for additional costume slots.

 

For slowing down cash:

• AE costs money. The price can scale based on how popular (or how well-used) the map is, starting at 0 inf and going up to, say, 1M per activation of that map.
• Enhancement Conversion costs cash, not tokens.
• Using university resources (invention tables) costs tuition, maybe after level 20.

 

Of course, I’m sure people say there’s no problem at all with users hoarding tens of billions of influence, but you know, this is just a starting point for the discussion.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

im not against money sinks tbh and your suggestions aren't terrible especially if the costs are so high it dissuades abuse. Personally im confused by the new currency. like, did we really need another? and yeah im counting all the currencies used to purchase various items whether they are incarnate currencies or merits of various types. Ill get used to it eventually but are they gonna keep adding new currencies? where does it end? 

[PoptartsNinja]

Influence being hoarded isn't being circulated, so it's not really a problem that it exists. I like your ideas for "fun" inf sinks, giving the billionares a fun way to throw money into the void is a good idea and using inf to trigger zone invasions is fun. I could also see that being used to grief costume contests so they'd probably have to leave Atlas Park out off the list.

 

 

 

That said?

 

There isn't a need to tax people for using the AE. That will either create exploitative situations, deter casual players from using AE to make personal or SG stories, and drive away the farmers. All of which would be a long-term detriment to the game.

 

Enhancement conversion already costs money, about 60-75k per converter. That cost just primarily gets paid to other people instead of vanishing into the void.

 

Making inventions already costs inf based on the level of the invention. It's about 500k per IO at level 50.

[starro]

For one million (inf) Statesman shows up to your Birthday Party, for five million (inf) he will be alive.... and at your bday party.

 

I like the idea in theory, but curious about practical application and ability for systems to potentially handle stress if several players cashed out at once.

Edited February 4, 2023 by starro

[biostem]

1 hour ago, MHertz said:

Pay 25m, trigger a giant monster spawn in that zone.

 

1 hour ago, MHertz said:

Pay 100m, trigger a zone invasion.

These could potentially be a way to grief players.

 

1 hour ago, MHertz said:

Pay 50m, trigger an enemy invasion of your SG base.

Since it's an isolated instance, I see no problem with this.

 

1 hour ago, MHertz said:

Pay 10m for additional costume slots.

This may potentially be an issue with the GUI or game engine in general.

 

1 hour ago, MHertz said:

AE costs money. The price can scale based on how popular (or how well-used) the map is, starting at 0 inf and going up to, say, 1M per activation of that map.

Too up to subjective opinion and/or may be punishing to quality, but less popular AE content.

 

1 hour ago, MHertz said:

Enhancement Conversion costs cash, not tokens.

Why not both?  Maybe also allow unslotters to be bough for inf.

 

1 hour ago, MHertz said:

Using university resources (invention tables) costs tuition, maybe after level 20.

No thanks.  Why penalize people for using the invention system?  Now, a non-permanent/on demand portable work bench, (sans the temp power) costing inf, or perhaps scatter some benches-for-rent out in other zones where they don't already exist could be interesting.

 

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, MHertz said:

Should there be some system that gives such players something to spend their money on? Or something to slow down the acquisition of cash at the top levels?

No and no.

[Akisan]

@biostem pretty much summed up all of my comments, though I would add:

 

1 hour ago, MHertz said:

AE costs money. The price can scale based on how popular (or how well-used) the map is, starting at 0 inf and going up to, say, 1M per activation of that map.

 

This is pretty much already in effect (though not necessarily for this specific reason) - there's a "tax" built-in to the AE system (hence why enemies don't drop full inf/exp in there).  Adding a flat door fee unfairly penalizes players for playing on lower difficulties.  If you wanted to slow down inf gain further, the penalty rate could be adjusted, but it's more or less fine where it's at now.

[Greycat]

Have to say absolutely not to anything triggering invasions/GMs, and an AE or Invention tax isn't needed.

Conversion... as long as *converters* aren't removed by it, maybe. Then again, converters are already "it costs cash" if you buy them from the AH, or (indirectly) through superpacks, so...

 

Honestly, "So and so has a bunch of money" - I don't care, as long as they aren't dickish about it.

[0th Power]

I disagree with several here about the zone events.  I think I could be set up to avoid grieving if you 1. didn't get to pick the zone, 2. only one event at a time and 3. was a high enough inf drop. (over 100 mil I would think.  500 mil maybe?).   That being said, I don't know too many people willing to light over 100 mil on fire for an invasion.

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, MHertz said:

Of course, I’m sure people say there’s no problem at all with users hoarding tens of billions of influence

 

We're coming up on four years of Homecoming, and the worst thing anyone's been able to do with vast sums of inf* is cause very short-term price spikes on salvage in the AH, and even that has been laughably mild in comparison to the stable prices on the original servers.  If there were a problem, it would've manifested by now.

[MHertz]

  

2 hours ago, PoptartsNinja said:

Influence being hoarded isn't being circulated, so it's not really a problem that it exists.

 

... I could also see that [zone invasions] being used to grief costume contests so they'd probably have to leave Atlas Park out off the list.

 

...There isn't a need to tax people for using the AE. That will either create exploitative situations, deter casual players from using AE to make personal or SG stories...

First, agree to disagree. When someone has 30 billion sitting around, they might not be spending all of it, but it means it hurts them less when the cost of IOs goes up 2-3 million per. It hurts everyone else — at least it could, in theory. See below.

 

Second, it depends on implementation. Giant monsters and zone invasions are already coded by the devs to be as non-griefy as possible in low-level zones. Spawn points are already chosen. All I'm saying is that, in any zone where this is already possible, a player could activate it. We're not talking about "point and click-summon a giant monster wherever you want."

 

Third, I did specifically say that maps that aren't commonly used could have prices as low as 0. This would specifically be so people could make their RP-based stories and invite all their friends. Suppose the threshold is about 100 uses before the fee rises above 0 inf — that's plenty of opportunities to design your own bespoke RP story and invite your whole SG to play for free.

 

Another potential way to use the AE system to remove money from the super-rich is this: allow the owner of the map to put Influence into it, like a piggy bank, so that everybody who completes that map gets a payout, or gets extra Influence per defeat, or whatever. This doesn't remove money from the system, but it does redistribute it.

 

It would also be possible to set up some kind of scavenger hunt. A rich player says "I want to set up a 10m prize for the person who finds my glowie in Independence Port," or "for the first person to defeat 20 Carnies in PI" or "the first person who brings me X Invention Enhancement." You know, something to make the super-rich feel like they are super rich characters on the level of Batman or Tony Stark, paying others to do services. It's also sort of like the way Sherlock Holmes uses the Baker Street Irregulars.

 

Or maybe an option to pay an extra fee — when you're defeated, you can ask to be airlifted to any hospital, not just the one from the last zone you were in. There's all kinds of ways that extra influence can be leveraged for conveniences. The trouble with the existing methods is that they are all purchases — spend X and have a new power forever. A true money sink should be "spend X, get this benefit that only happens once."

 

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

"So and so has a bunch of money" - I don't care, as long as they aren't dickish about it.

 

If that were the extent of it, I wouldn't care either. But when large amounts of cash get hoarded, and there is an auction house for rare items, it creates a need for everyone to be equally rich in order to compete for those items. It drives players into min-games they don't enjoy, or grind out XP just for the cash, in order to keep up.

 

I don't have any figures to say whether this is actually happening, so I don't know whether this is a solution in search of a problem. It could be that there is no issue, which I would be fine with. But it would still be fun to have new things to spend money on.

Edited February 4, 2023 by MHertz

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, MHertz said:

Pay 50m, trigger an enemy invasion of your SG base.

With no pathfinding beacons available in SG bases, you would have static mobs. Ranged attacks would be viable for them, but not melee unless you closed to melee with them. Makes for easy to deal with invasion.

[MHertz]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

With no pathfinding beacons available in SG bases, you would have static mobs.

At the moment, yes. Also, it would require new infrastructure to deal with stuff like spawn points, hospitals being required in those SGs, warnings for players entering combat-enabled bases, change to AFK policy in SG bases, and so on.

[Greycat]

55 minutes ago, MHertz said:

 

If that were the extent of it, I wouldn't care either. But when large amounts of cash get hoarded, and there is an auction house for rare items, it creates a need for everyone to be equally rich in order to compete for those items. It drives players into min-games they don't enjoy, or grind out XP just for the cash, in order to keep up.

 

If that were the *only* way to get those items, maybe. But "rare" items are still easily obtainable, generally. I can completely ignore the AH and pick up full sets of purples, if I so choose. I have characters with plenty of merits they're just sitting on, obtained just by playing the game. I could probably convert those to quite a bit of cash as well if I wanted to. *shrug*

[Arc-Mage]

The first thing is that you are assuming the in game economy has an excess of INF and Merits. I’m pretty sure the Devs are happy with the balance at the moment.

 

If you read the forums on a regular bases you will see a good chunk of those posts are people concerned with not having enough INF. Or being concerned that others have too much. If you have both of these types of people complaining more than likely reality is someplace in the middle. 
 

Spending 25 mill to spawns a GM that will give you 6-12 Reward Merits doesn’t sound like a proper conversion rate to me. 
 

If you are looking for a Sugar Daddy there are people in game that will happily give 10-20 million INF to people if they just ask politely. 
 

You may have a better chance creating a Forum post for anyone who needs some starter money. The person in need can post their request. The Sugar Daddy sends a private message and the meet in game for the exchange. More anonymous types can just leave their Global. 
 

That last one of mine is actually a good idea. Someone should do that.

[Troo]

2 minutes ago, Arc-Mage said:

Spending 25 mill to spawns a GM that will give you 6-12 Reward Merits

 

6-12 per account in a super group it could be down right cheap. 3 accounts x 10 players x 10 merits = 300 which possibly equals 3 things that cost 8M.

Folks would figure out how to abuse it pretty quickly.

 

Some $$ sinks still sound like a good idea.

 

 

[Captain Fabulous]

Please forward any excess cash you have to me. Daddy needs a few pairs of new shoes. Mmmkay, thanks. 😉

Edited February 5, 2023 by Captain Fabulous

[biostem]

I wonder if it would be feasible to implement some sort of lottery system - you buy "tickets" for like 50 inf each, and at the end of each week, someone wins like half of the total amount, and the other half goes "poof!".

Edited February 5, 2023 by biostem

[Rudra]

I have an army of characters with no enhancements still. I'm with @Captain Fabulous. Alms for the poor? If you just want to get rid of all that burdensome inf', I'll gladly take it off your hands.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

I wonder if it would be feasible to implement some sort of lottery system - you buy "tickets" for like 50 inf each, and at the end of each week, someone wins like half of the total amount, and the other half goes "poof!".

 

[MHertz]

6 hours ago, Arc-Mage said:

If you read the forums on a regular bases you will see a good chunk of those posts are people concerned with not having enough INF. Or being concerned that others have too much. If you have both of these types of people complaining more than likely reality is someplace in the middle. 

Or, the people are complaining they don't have enough Inf because they can't afford auction prices set by people with far too much money to burn.

 

The question of whether there is too much cash is secondary, however. The question really is "can we think of fun things to spend it on?"

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, MHertz said:

Or, the people are complaining they don't have enough Inf because they can't afford auction prices set by people with far too much money to burn.

That is a big assumption. Especially given the discussion you and I are having on the double inf' xp thread you started where you are going on about not being able to afford SOs. Which a lot of characters can't do without assistance.

 

2 hours ago, MHertz said:

The question really is "can we think of fun things to spend it on?"

Sure. More options is always a good thing.

Edit: Though some options are off the table just because of game limitations. Like extra costume slots unless you can't buy them any more once you hit the current limit. (Since the current limit is basically set by the game's limit.)

Edited February 5, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to correct inf' to xp.

[UltraAlt]

17 hours ago, MHertz said:

Should there be some system that gives such players something to spend their money on?

Maybe donating to the Holiday events?

Buying card packs?

Giving Influence or items to random players?

Buying P2W powers?!

Helping out your sg mates?

What are those dojiggies ...prismatic aether or something like that?

 

17 hours ago, MHertz said:

Enhancement Conversion costs cash, not tokens.

 

You can already buy them with influence.

 

17 hours ago, MHertz said:

Should there be some system that gives such players something to spend their money on?

 

They are already in the game and when you add thing to the game for people to spend money on it takes it out of the game economy and those that don't have simply feel like they have even less because they can't get those things.

 

Just leave it alone.

 

.... but I will say being able to turn into a giant monster and attack the City when there are a certain number of players in a zone (even if it limited to the highest level zones or when there are over 200 people on the server at the time) would be fun for the player and for those fighting against the giant monster player.

I used to love the big battle where the DEVs would control giant monsters and hundreds of players would be fighting them (well, maybe not hundreds, but it seemed like that)

No rewards on either side. Just a kaiju slugfest. heroes versus giant monsters.

[Doc_Scorpion]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I used to love the big battle where the DEVs would control giant monsters and hundreds of players would be fighting them (well, maybe not hundreds, but it seemed like that)

No rewards on either side. Just a kaiju slugfest. heroes versus giant monsters.

Those days are gone, Homecoming power creep has trivialized giant monster encounters.

[DoctorDitko]

6 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I used to love the big battle where the DEVs would control giant monsters and hundreds of players would be fighting them

 

I was at one of those where the Devs' avatars were giant versions of present players! Amazingly satisfying to help take down a gigantic version of yourself!

 

I'd contribute to a fund to sponsor/trigger events like that!