What's the deal with Controllers at 50?

[Hongxiquan]

3 hours ago, ozob said:

I'm glad you're enjoying the game, but I would ask you what exactly are you bringing to your team?  I have a tricked out Fire/Rad, so I've been playing one for a while:

What you have:
Great toggle based debuffs
Good controls
Okay damage (gets better when debufs are in place)

Now let's look at what you contribute?
Debuffs? 

No.  Mobs at lvl 50 die so fast you won't even get part of your toggles on before things are dead and gone.  Since they are usually dying so fast anyway, why did you waste the action to debuff them in the first place?  Rad's debuffs were AMAZING through most of live.  They are not needed, or really even that helpful short of AVs and maybe EBs at this point.  Also, this is your secondary... so your primary has little use in that fight at all.  This has always been an issue for CoH and is not new.

Controls?
No.  Things die too fast.  If you're wasting time trying to control them... maybe outside of an AOE immob to keep them all in range for the varrious nukes and incarnate nukes that will wipe them out that's kind of a waste of a power.  If I'm choosing between a guy that's going to stop 4-8 mobs or one that's going to kill 4-8 mobs... well it's not a hard choice to make.  Even if the fight goes on for a bit, even Blasters are softcapping def and sometimes resistance now.  Your -To Hit doesn't help me if I'm already softcapped.  

Damage?
Yes, you have some and can contribute there.  One of your main powers has both damage and control, making it pretty useful even for a fast moving team.  However, since you never really get your debuffs going, your output is meh... at best.  A Corruptor/Blaster/Scrapper/Sent/Stalker/Brute will do much better with much less setup.

 

Yeah, I stopped playing Fire/Rad because they are pretty much redundant to just about anything these days.  Great to solo, fun to play, still strong, but not really useful in teams in high end content any more short of some speed against AVs.  I don't think this is a Martyr complex.  There are some inherent issues with the AT in how the game is currently played.  Discussing them and asking if the dev team can do things about them I think is pretty reasonable.  Look at the changes to Tankers.  I think they were definitely needed.  Tankers have very similar issues that controllers do... their role is not as important as it once was.  Are controllers useless?  No.  But they do lack a clear role in high end content.  I hope the devs do take a look at the AT as a whole and give it similar treatment to what happened to Tankers.

Hey man, you've clearly thought this out, my character is useless.  That's not been my experience but cheers nonetheless.

 

The situation you're describing is the fabled "good party" which from my experience isn't always happening.  And if I'm not really contributing on a "good team" because "everyone else is better" then oh well, better get back to solo farming for me then.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Hongxiquan

[Frosticus]

I make sure to slot procs where possible. A lot of controller powers can do decent damage  but they are often dots. Procs give you up front damage that everyone craves and can even make non damage  powers into ok aoe attacks. Not a perfect solution but it helps a bit

[Riverdusk]

3 hours ago, Frosticus said:

I make sure to slot procs where possible. A lot of controller powers can do decent damage  but they are often dots. Procs give you up front damage that everyone craves and can even make non damage  powers into ok aoe attacks. Not a perfect solution but it helps a bit

Yep, my planned build for my latest controller I'm working on I counted up all the different damage procs in it.  Came up to 20 in total.  That's just damage procs, didn't include utility ones like Lockdown and force feedback even.  Definitely recommended.   

 

I can agree with some of the other suggestions made as well though.  Upping the damage back up in the epics would certainly be a good start.  It is sad when a power pool attack, Arcane Bolt, does more damage with a faster recharge than the equivalent single target controller epic pool attacks.   

 

Speaking as an illusion controller fan, I'd also love to see "fear" added as a containment trigger.  Would help mind control, and to a lesser extend dark, as well.

 

[Shoulung]

First, I’m going to start off by saying that there’s some awful high expectations for some volunteer devs who keep this running for love of the game. Now, as far as making CC useful, they could take cues from other games where they use CC to control high damage mobs that are otherwise invincible while the rest of the team focuses down the boss. They do this to a degree in hamidon, but they could make it much more pervasive throughout a TF for instance. Raids in other games feel much more like a dance, where here it’s a hammer driving in a nail; everyone has the same move. Personally though, I’ll just continue to be happy that this is available to play at all.

[Riverdusk]

17 hours ago, Shoulung said:

First, I’m going to start off by saying that there’s some awful high expectations for some volunteer devs who keep this running for love of the game. Now, as far as making CC useful, they could take cues from other games where they use CC to control high damage mobs that are otherwise invincible while the rest of the team focuses down the boss. They do this to a degree in hamidon, but they could make it much more pervasive throughout a TF for instance. Raids in other games feel much more like a dance, where here it’s a hammer driving in a nail; everyone has the same move. Personally though, I’ll just continue to be happy that this is available to play at all.

A victim of their own success in a way though.  They've already made some good changes and are working a pretty big overhaul to tankers.  So they've shown they are capable and willing to make some pretty significant changes, and so far imho have done a pretty good job of it.

[VV]

I like to play my endgame controller more as a "whoopsie" guard than as a blaster/defender/tanker. As we cruise along, I toss out buffs, debuffs, damage, and heals as I can, but I don't try to go full bore, and I will with-hold a few of my powers, keeping them always off cooldown.  In almost every case, something eventually goes wrong, an overpull, a forgotten ambush, a cat jumps on someone's keyboard, and that is when the Controller steps in to really do their thing. Do some extra lockdown, blow off, debuffs, buffs, heals, whatever it is your powersets excel at, those few extra "oh crap" powers you have been holding in reserve, let the team recover and get back at it without a bunch of dead. Nobody notices, nobody says thank you, but you know what you did.

 

Also, to give yourself some perspective, I encourage you to do the same thing with any other 50 AT you might have. Go in on a big team, do your thing, then go AFK (bio break) and come back and you'll see that just like with your Controller, they have cruised on without you, hardly noticing. This is just to say that, as many have said before, the temporary loss of any one teammate will not have a huge impact on the whole. But, no matter what, 8 is always better than 7.

 

Also, stop running with so many brutes.

[Hyperstrike]

Sorry, I'm a chronic Tank.

I Tank on pretty much anything I can.


As such....
 

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Illusion Control
Secondary Power Set: Force Field
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Spectral Wounds -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg:50(3), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(3), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(5), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(5), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc:50(7)
Level 1: Personal Force Field -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), Rct-ResDam%:50(42)
Level 2: Blind -- SprEnt-Acc/Hold:50(A), SprEnt-Hold/Rchg:50(11), SprEnt-End/Rchg:50(13), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End:50(15), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End/Rchg:50(15), SprEnt-Rchg/AbsorbProc:50(17)
Level 4: Deflection Shield -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP:50(43)
Level 6: Deceive -- CrcPrs-Conf/Rchg:50(A), CrcPrs-Acc/Conf/Rchg:50(33), CrcPrs-Acc/Rchg:50(33), CrcPrs-Conf/EndRdx:50(34), CrcPrs-Conf%:50(34), CrcPrs-Conf:50(34)
Level 8: Flash -- SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear:50(A), SprWiloft-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg:50(17), SprWiloft-EndRdx/Rchg:50(27), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx:50(29), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31), SprWiloft-Rchg/Dmg%:50(31)
Level 10: Insulation Shield -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 12: Superior Invisibility -- Rct-Def:50(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx:50(13), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(43)
Level 14: Group Invisibility -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx:50(42), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(43)
Level 16: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%:50(A)
Level 18: Phantom Army -- ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg:50(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg:50(19), ExpRnf-Dmg/EndRdx:50(19), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(21), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg:50(23), ExpRnf-+Res(Pets):50(23)
Level 20: Dispersion Bubble -- Rct-Def:50(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx:50(21), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(46)
Level 22: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc:50(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(25), UnbGrd-ResDam:50(37), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(40), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(40), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(42)
Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(25), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(45)
Level 26: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(27), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(45)
Level 28: Repulsion Field -- FrcFdb-Rechg%:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(29)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(31)
Level 32: Maneuvers -- Rct-Def:50(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx:50(33), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(46)
Level 35: Phantasm -- EdcoftheM-Acc/Dmg:40(A), EdcoftheM-Dmg/EndRdx:40(36), EdcoftheM-Acc/EndRdx:40(36), EdcoftheM-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:40(36), EdcoftheM-Dmg:40(37), EdcoftheM-PetDef:40(37)
Level 38: Repulsion Bomb -- Rgn-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(39), Rgn-Acc/Rchg:50(39), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx:50(39), Rgn-Knock%:50(40)
Level 41: Force Bubble -- EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(50)
Level 44: Scorpion Shield -- Rct-Def:50(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx:50(45), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(46)
Level 47: Spectral Terror -- SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear:50(A), SprOvrPrs-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg:50(48), SprOvrPrs-EndRdx/Rchg:50(48), SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx:50(48), SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg:50(50), SprOvrPrs-Rchg/Energy Font:50(50)
Level 49: Super Jump -- WntGif-ResSlow:50(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End:50(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+:50(7), Mrc-Rcvry+:40(9)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%:50(A), PrfShf-EndMod:50(9), EndMod-I:50(11)
Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon
Level 50: Diamagnetic Core Flawless Interface
------------

 

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;1482;654;1308;HEX;|
|78DA65944B4F13511886CF69A75C4A91628116DA7247AE562AA81B0D1110A3D284C|
|4C4958A0D0C3049439B16125DBAF00F981897DEB9AABFC085D77FA2A80B0101A33B|
|FC3AEF5B6898499BA7E7FD2EF39EF9CE347177D4F7F6F2FD21A5FD23A9642E37399|
|29E5FC8A6532933EB492467AD2995BF4AE5DB76182924C5AEA4528B392B3D5F10C2|
|4539C38B3333B1B17476CA9C1CB3CCD4B4AA9C484BC998353BB760CDCFFAECD5B89|
|9CCC8C26B2FAE674C73BAAAA04F9BD9DC9C95895CCA5853B1A2BE89A4744C24730B|
|66F65E487C75CAF78956BCF63D6AC5502A6E28D72AB9061AEBE46BB0E40D78FEB05|
|6AB5A6D6BDDBB6E9B4F65A935FAEAF7C8F77E007D1FC1639FC8CFA0FF0B7841EADC|
|A8D56EF6EDB986BECF64E9A15FCF2D97AD35DF2627C1963B6492BC093ED79847BEB|
|67409FDFCCB60C30A1859051BD7C87570486ACB51ABCAE9E985A0023E5D159BC8F3|
|6D813D3BE04B895732A7B2F08CFCDC53007489A92AE4A8AA07F0FA4AD6D5F45ABD0|
|5EDF836F91BACD901EB76C93DF0A2D40678CF007DD5D0D749FA72CB3D6B399FDAD3|
|D0424111A2866ADFC3BAF30FF917ECFE071A521B64FF20F714AA01FBB8A73AC9A96|
|74E3D731A8EE40C0BC29C7398FB8EB4289BAD521F652CDA0BAD91AC9658137B3771|
|7FCD47F6B72CF1563EBFD6AFF9C36EA8B66FE406F91D6CFF41FE0447A4B603B546C|
|7007C9D1824CF9067C1CE73E0A8D474D16F17F710271FC9207BE9B7977EFB8EF85D|
|92788C7E6321BC07A7EAC906320CC62364140CCAF3E8E7D9EC0FF31C1B07EFA67CE|
|4CA0FB6A0ECF738A2FD0E25EE50061CCAA04319772813A2682ADA56CAFDF27ED3C9|
|2FEFC1FF04A35B878A4BB7603725377062CAAE6A7B429B8EAAEDE2AAC79849D943D|
|0DB8C390C0504C8D97F57F4FB3FE249F6F4|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

[Sovera]

On 9/16/2019 at 5:25 PM, ozob said:

Controls?

No.  Things die too fast.  If you're wasting time trying to control them... maybe outside of an AOE immob to keep them all in range for the varrious nukes and incarnate nukes that will wipe them out that's kind of a waste of a power.  If I'm choosing between a guy that's going to stop 4-8 mobs or one that's going to kill 4-8 mobs... well it's not a hard choice to make.  Even if the fight goes on for a bit, even Blasters are softcapping def and sometimes resistance now.  Your -To Hit doesn't help me if I'm already softcapped. 

Let me just add that as I recently started playing a Brute I almost inwardly wince when I see a Controller joining. Invariably they 'help' by throwing mass immobilizes like they were candy, and the mobs that would have ran to me and clustered tight like metal filings to a magnet thanks to the agro my auras are spewing are now... scattered around, and outside my AoEs' range.

[ozob]

13 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Let me just add that as I recently started playing a Brute I almost inwardly wince when I see a Controller joining. Invariably they 'help' by throwing mass immobilizes like they were candy, and the mobs that would have ran to me and clustered tight like metal filings to a magnet thanks to the agro my auras are spewing are now... scattered around, and outside my AoEs' range.

I was just on the TinPlex with you.  The one that had 4 controllers?  While we did okay, there was a lot of death and confusion.

 

I play controllers... still haven't changed my mind about their use in end game stuff.   I lately build them to solo 8 person content and am good.

Edited September 19, 2019 by ozob

[ZeeHero]

 A tanker who doesn't damage "As a rule" has the role wrong.... a tanks job is 3 fold, 1, dont die, 2 hold aggro, 3 inflict as much damage as they can.

 

That said this is a controller thread and I agree that NO one role is NEEDED on a team.

[VV]

On 9/19/2019 at 6:08 PM, Sovera said:

Let me just add that as I recently started playing a Brute I almost inwardly wince when I see a Controller joining. Invariably they 'help' by throwing mass immobilizes like they were candy, and the mobs that would have ran to me and clustered tight like metal filings to a magnet thanks to the agro my auras are spewing are now... scattered around, and outside my AoEs' range.

I was on an on all-controller, 1 brute PuG the other day. Totally random. The poor Brute had hardly anything to do. Stuff melted so quickly that he could barely get to the combat while there was anything left.

 

And I see that this is another thread that comes down to "no specific AT is ever needed for a mission/radio team of 8." You can verify this by joining any 8-person team of 50s doing endgame story content, or even TFs. Run along with them for a few missions and see how it goes. Go AFK for a bit ("gotta water my dog" or something), then come back and see if they were really suffering. They weren't. You could be anything, they could be anything, and the loss of you for a bit would barely matter.

 

I mean, I don't know why this question comes up all the time. This is common knowledge on PuGs. On any PuG, people drop in and out, and most people don't even pay attention to what AT they are. Yet, you continue to rofflestomp through the content, even on 4x8. 

 

This is the main reason why my current campaign to get the devs to "fix" things is to NOT buff any of the ATs, as they are doing with the Tankers soon. Instead, if they have some free time to do some devving, focus it on buffing up the enemies. Pretty much any 8-person team of any combo of 50s can faceroll 4x8 missions. Periodt. So, if you want to make it more necessary to divide up a team into specific roles, you need to make the missions harder.

[Sovera]

2 hours ago, VV said:

(...)

And I see that this is another thread that comes down to "no specific AT is ever needed for a mission/radio team of 8." You can verify this by joining any 8-person team of 50s doing endgame story content, or even TFs. Run along with them for a few missions and see how it goes. Go AFK for a bit ("gotta water my dog" or something), then come back and see if they were really suffering. They weren't. You could be anything, they could be anything, and the loss of you for a bit would barely matter.

 

I mean, I don't know why this question comes up all the time. This is common knowledge on PuGs. On any PuG, people drop in and out, and most people don't even pay attention to what AT they are. Yet, you continue to rofflestomp through the content, even on 4x8. 

 

(...)

Of course, same reason I just grab whatever answers me when I form a TF. You're sort of missing the original intent of the quote/thread though, as most are when they quote the 'no AT is needed'.

 

If no AT is *needed* then what do we bring to the team? If no team notices if we go AFK, then what do we improve on it when we return? On a Controller it's usually 'I bring anemic damage, that I painfully leveled, and I'm usually useless against a single hard target who is ignoring my holds and other CC. On large packs of enemies I usually keep them CCed, but that makes no impact be there or not be there.'

 

And yes, the secondary *does* help with buffing and debuffing, but the call is going about the primaries and how a CC primary has slowly become obsolete over the years.

 

Is this a call for people to stop enjoying their Controllers and move to other ATs? Heck no, carry on, you do you. What I and others have said is that we feel we don't *do* much with substance if our contribution ends being a buff/debuff bot. Might as well roll a Corruptor and do the same buff/debuffing while also doing more normal damage and have an easier leveling.

[Coyote]

6 hours ago, Sovera said:

If no AT is *needed* then what do we bring to the team? If no team notices if we go AFK, then what do we improve on it when we return?

 

At Incarnate levels, it is common enough for players to be able to play at +2/x3, or higher. So if you put 3-4 of these characters together, you reach maximum spawn size. Depending on the mission holder, you may be at maximum spawn level.

 

So.... add in another character, and the team gets more powerful. Do the spawns get more powerful? No, because they're already maxed. The ability to max out difficulty at the size of half a team means that any additional characters are not bringing any more difficulty, and thus need not bring any defense. Just offense (damage, or fast-animating -Resist).

 

For this reason, at max level and large teams, damage is more important than anything else. The idea that teams won't notice if you're gone, when you're a Blaster, is not really true... even if they don't actually NOTICE, it's definite that kill speed will be less. A Controller will also increase kill speed, but not by nearly as much.

 

This is not an AT issue. This is a game difficulty issue, and if it were to be fixed, it would be fixed by weakening characters across the board (lowering the +Recharge and +Def bonuses from IO sets), or strengthening mobs (AoE buffs and debuffs for them).

[Scarlet Shocker]

Interesting point. some good comments in this thread too.

 

I guess it all depends on what you want your AT to be. The OPs toon will be largely keep everything away and murder everything that's not EB/AV. But it's not really got the debuffs to take the big buggers down. One of the things I lovelovelove about Trollers is their variety. Different power combos give a totally different feel to the character, far more so than with other ATs I find and their strengths and weaknesses will very much depend on what sets you've chosen and your playstyle with that toon.

 

Personally I find I play best with debuffs and lockdowns - my Earth/Ice is a case in point, but you can do lots of damage with Illusion or Fire when paired with other complimentary sets. I had a lot of fun with a Fire/TA without following the typical Fire/Kin or Fire/Rad methodology.

 

I also find I make a massive impact on smaller teams. Don't forget the game is significantly easier with the introduction of Incarnates, and even tough TFs pre I23 are relatively simple now. But if you get a smaller team, say 3, 4 or 5 you'll notice your magic working much more obviously.

 

I'd suggest the OPs toon as it stands is to provide a protective barrier for his team - nothing gets to them if he's on the ball but I'd also urge him/her? to experiment with other types and see where they go.

[oxmox]

I think this is kind of the same as people complaining that tankers are useless now. My suggestion for both is to spend more time playing at sub 50, or to only do 50+ content with smaller teams. Though once you add in incarnates and everyone can solo +4/x8 the smaller teams won't be enough to make things more challenging.

 

Ultimately you need two things in combat. Damage to clear enemies and mitigation to stay alive. Tanking, lockdown, heals, and defensive buffs/debuffs all help mostly with the survival aspect of combat. The issue is that once everyone has incarnates and IO sets, most mobs pose no threat. No need to control groups if they can't scratch you regardless.

 

It's even applicable in the reverse to a degree. When builds are maxed out, even controllers and tanks are dealing decent damage. A team with no damage focused AT will still crush everything, just a little slower. It's just that clear speed can always be increased (up to the unrealistic limit of instant clearing everything) but once you reach the point of nobody dying, extra mitigation is useless.

 

Only real solution I can see is shrinking the gap between players and mobs, either with some harsh global nerfs or by super buffing 50+ enemies. If mobs are actually threatening (and take longer than 2 seconds to wipe), control and other mitigation regain value.

 

Of course that requires some pretty sweeping changes of the sort that most people probably don't want, so I wouldn't expect this to change anytime soon. 

[Without_Pause]

Apparently I'm doing it wrong as my first two 50s on HC are controllers. Oops. 😀

[Frostweaver]

You know, if EVERYONE on a team with a controller got containment...

[Without_Pause]

On 10/6/2019 at 5:39 AM, Frostweaver said:

You know, if EVERYONE on a team with a controller got containment...

Blasters don't need containment. Level 50 +4 content can be made enough of a joke as is.

[Frostweaver]

You don't need anything for 50+4 content. Any random level 50 team can breeze through it, even Tanker Tuesdays. What could possibly make you think that was what I was talking about? To be honest, EVERY AT is more or less superflous at that level. You won't suffer even slightly if you don't have a particular AT on your team, and it is not a controller problem. Anything can faceroll.

It's incarnate content that controllers don't offer much for, and thus what needs the buff. universal containment could help (maybe too much) or even a -10% resistance debuff to contained content if you are on the same team. It's incarnate content that has controllers heavily dependent on their secondaries, and incarnate content where every little skosh of extra dps helps.

[Without_Pause]

27 minutes ago, Frostweaver said:

You don't need anything for 50+4 content. Any random level 50 team can breeze through it, even Tanker Tuesdays. What could possibly make you think that was what I was talking about? To be honest, EVERY AT is more or less superflous at that level. You won't suffer even slightly if you don't have a particular AT on your team, and it is not a controller problem. Anything can faceroll.

It's incarnate content that controllers don't offer much for, and thus what needs the buff. universal containment could help (maybe too much) or even a -10% resistance debuff to contained content if you are on the same team. It's incarnate content that has controllers heavily dependent on their secondaries, and incarnate content where every little skosh of extra dps helps.

Then fix Incarnate content. A global containment buff for everyone all the time is a shortsighted fix.

[Galaxy Brain]

On 10/6/2019 at 5:39 AM, Frostweaver said:

You know, if EVERYONE on a team with a controller got containment...

Less that they get containment, but how about damaging a controlled target (via a Controller's controls), you proc the Control's damage again?

 

Sure its not the same as a blaster hitting twice, but hitting the control power's damage over and over would be significant.

[ozob]

For folks that say there is no problem.  I heartily disagree.  As long as this game has been out, the Controller AT has had a very hard time with end game content.  The moment the purple triangles went in, controllers started to lose their relevancy.  This has only gotten worse with incarnate content which allows pretty much anyone with a good build to solo what was once team content.  That's where we are now.

So, yes.  Controllers, who had been marginalized before in end game content suffer worse now.

No AT is needed to complete content, agreed, so then the question is what do you contribute.  If you, as a controller, were not there, the team would be faster in kill speed by taking any AT that offers more damage.  When 'hard' content like AVs are finally encountered, all of the tools and things that you would like to work, suddenly don't.  So there is no content that your lack of damage supports, and the content that might lend itself to your controls they don't work anyway.

That is the problem.

I now have 7 level 50 trollers here.  I do love them.  I, and others, are asking for content or a buff to make us NOT feel like we slow teams down or that teams succeed despite our being there.

[Coyote]

34 minutes ago, ozob said:

The moment the purple triangles went in, controllers started to lose their relevancy.

 

Illusion/Rad CONTROLLERS would like a word with that claim.
As would Earth/Cold who are properly built to have Animate Stone tank the AV.

As would many X/Dark Controllers who can tank most AVs.

As would x/Empathy Controllers who generally depended on buffing their teammates as a major part of their strength, and whose buffs were even more important before the IO sets when many melee ATs needed more help in tanking AVs.

 

It's true that a Controller's main strength in AV fights is based on their secondary (other than PA), or maybe using their single-target Immobilize to keep AVs from running around like marathon stars. But that's still a contribution. In fact, if you take the only Blaster out of an 8 man team, I bet you notice less change than if you take out the only Controller, because having the AVs Immobilized and debuffed with a small amount of added damage is more useful than no Immobilize and no debuffing, but a large amount of added damage.

 

Frankly, it's AV fights where high-end Controllers seem to have more use, and high-end facerolling teams where they seem useless. Immobilizes and debuffs are still useful against AVs, and you actually have time to apply them. Mezzes are, many times, useless against the normal spawns, and you may not even have enough time to apply debuffs before the spawn is gone. And stationary buffs like Acid Mortar or Tar Pit work better in longer fights like AVs than in shorter fights that are over in 10 seconds and you're off to the next spawn... with your -Resist power still recharging.

 

Yes, Controllers have a problem in end-game content, but it's not AVs. It's the speed with which spawns get erased, which make controls nearly useless and debuffs hard to apply.

[blazingcoconut]

The immob is useful, I find often times as the only troller on the team that they do just fine whether I immob them or not.  Most of the abilities you are talking about /cold /rad etc... Are better off coming from a defender as you're really talking key secondary powers that make those sets shine, and the immob is about the only thing we really contribute that others can't to better in much of the content.

 

The thing we do, control, started losing value when the devs didn't want controllers making their end game content trivial.  They explained this at length with the purple triangle change.  Yet here we are... With much of the end game content trivial and controllers have their primary ability either neutered or irrelevant to much of the content still.

 

There are effective pairings.  Yes.  However, it's not because they bring control to the end game.  It's because they bring something else, usually damage or their secondary to the fight.  Illusion breaks this with some interesting ways of making control work 

 

Controllers aren't terrible.  I still love and play them, but they are not in a good place right now for endgame other than a few outliers.

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

It sounds more like we need additional difficulty settings / content where control would be valued.

 

Adding damage procs to team mates hitting targets you applied a power to is neat, but it kind of strips the control aspect away. If new settings were introduced where like, enemies had toggles and such that a hold / stun would break then suddenly controllers become awesome.