Fire Blast for Sentenils, WHY? BLAZING BLAST NOT FIRE BLAST is the COrrect ATTACK

[Heatstroke]

I like the repel on it thank you very much.. 

[The Chairman]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That still makes no sense. Was anything else changed or was just the -DEF component added? If they just added the -DEF component without nerfing anything, then that does nothing to nerf fire farming. Making it easier to hit targets does not nerf farming.

 

It made it easier for critters to hit the farmer.

[FupDup]

9 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That still makes no sense. Was anything else changed or was just the -DEF component added? If they just added the -DEF component without nerfing anything, then that does nothing to nerf fire farming. Making it easier to hit targets does not nerf farming.

The NPCs being farmed also have access to the fire attacks, so what would happen is that a person with Fire Armor would get their defense debuffed and cause a cascading failure. 

 

But since it's so easy to just give the NPCs different attacks that don't have the -def component, I don't think the "nerfing farms" argument really holds up. I still stand by the "proc pandering" argument (adding -def adds a lot of extra proc slotting options). 

Edited August 15, 2023 by FupDup

[arcane]

17 minutes ago, The Chairman said:

 

It made it easier for critters to hit the farmer.

And then people simply removed Fire Swords from farming missions, resulting in absolutely no change whatsoever. Saying farms were nerfed by Fire Sword defense debuffs is disingenuous nonsense.

Edited August 15, 2023 by arcane

[Luminara]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

I'm lost. How does adding a -DEF component nerf fire farming?

 

You have to wear the right apparel to understand certain thought processes.

 

[Rudra]

40 minutes ago, The Chairman said:

 

It made it easier for critters to hit the farmer.

 

37 minutes ago, FupDup said:

The NPCs being farmed also have access to the fire attacks, so what would happen is that a person with Fire Armor would get their defense debuffed and cause a cascading failure. 

 

But since it's so easy to just give the NPCs different attacks that don't have the -def component, I don't think the "nerfing farms" argument really holds up. I still stand by the "proc pandering" argument (adding -def adds a lot of extra proc slotting options). 

Every mob type a player can make in AE, AVs to minions, can take every fiery melee power except for the 3 sword attacks which are the only ones with -DEF, and just a couple defense powers, and they give 100% of possible xp as reward. That explanation makes no sense to me.

 

(Edit: And they wouldn't even need to change/edit any missions. Just open their created group and go down the line making sure they don't have any fire sword attacks.)

Edited August 15, 2023 by Rudra

[Sovera]

7 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

It's not a knock, it's a repel. Which is utterly terrible IMO. It's the main reason I'll never do fire blast on a sentinel. Too damn annoying and that power is too key to the ST damage and proccing too.

 

Edit: Yes it would be 100000% better as a knockdown or even a knockback, rather than repel. God i hate repel in attacks meant for damage...

It has both which is even worse since the game has gravity and inertia. So the KB is done with the character being pushed away at the same which further increases the distance travelled.

 

It's horrible.

 

And yes, the fire melee changes were not the best work of the HC team, bless. It was a slapdash boost to damage with a nonsensical reasoning. There's something we can say such as the fire melting armor and thus lowering defense? But it's out of place. Increasing damage numbers would have served best but the dev team is tied to their spreadsheets and the set was probably already at maximum budget for pure damage and thus proc damage was a way to increase the damage as a sideways upgrade.

 

It worked, Fire Melee needed it, so we can't argue with the results and only with the lack of elegance of how it was done.

[Solarverse]

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

Every mob type a player can make in AE, AVs to minions, can take every fiery melee power except for the 3 sword attacks which are the only ones with -DEF, and just a couple defense powers, and they give 100% of possible xp as reward. That explanation makes no sense to me.

 

(Edit: And they wouldn't even need to change/edit any missions. Just open their created group and go down the line making sure they don't have any fire sword attacks.)

 

unless something has changed since last year, I do not believe this to be accurate. I am certain that in order to gain maximum influence, you must have those in the NPC builds, otherwise you suffer great influence loss. Like I said, unless something has changed, the complaint has some validity. The part I don't find valid is that it was done to nerf anything. I do find the buff completely over the top, it should have just been given a DoT buff instead of given yet another secondary effect. Giving it that secondary effect just makes other powers even less valid in comparison, say for example, Peacebringers.

 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

 

unless something has changed since last year, I do not believe this to be accurate. I am certain that in order to gain maximum influence, you must have those in the NPC builds, otherwise you suffer great influence loss. Like I said, unless something has changed, the complaint has some validity. The part I don't find valid is that it was done to nerf anything. I do find the buff completely over the top, it should have just been given a DoT buff instead of given yet another secondary effect. Giving it that secondary effect just makes other powers even less valid in comparison, say for example, Peacebringers.

 

AE doesn't show influence, and I could swear influence is a product of the xp calculations. Minions get X% of xp award as inf', lieutenants get Y%, bosses get Z%, so on. And as far as xp goes, the breakdown for fiery melee for AE mobs means that a minion or lieutenant can grab every power from fiery melee except for the three fire sword ones, and be at 100% xp award even before you look at secondary powers. (Which should mean they are granting 100% inf' possible for their mob tier as well.) An AV? Is at 87% max xp before you get to the secondaries. And when you start adding in secondary power set powers? You no longer need all the non-fire sword powers from fiery melee for any tier of enemy to get to 100% reward.

 

(Edit: According to AE, it is if you lack any range powers for the mob that you take a massive hit on xp. No comment about inf'. Like I said though, inf' looks to be calculated from xp.)

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to add "non-fire sword".

[Fire Chief]

Just got my fire/fire/psy Sent with the tiers and procs blah blah just right for fire farming sooooo in PD I broadcast hitter LF FF get invite first mob all tight and cozy so I start my rotation I hit fire blast next thing I know I'm back in PD I look at chat to see if team DC'd or something the Brute lead /w me says sorry no KB. I got KB'd from the team lol.

[Solarverse]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

AE doesn't show influence, and I could swear influence is a product of the xp calculations. Minions get X% of xp award as inf', lieutenants get Y%, bosses get Z%, so on. And as far as xp goes, the breakdown for fiery melee for AE mobs means that a minion or lieutenant can grab every power from fiery melee except for the three fire sword ones, and be at 100% xp award even before you look at secondary powers. (Which should mean they are granting 100% inf' possible for their mob tier as well.) An AV? Is at 87% max xp before you get to the secondaries. And when you start adding in secondary power set powers? You no longer need all the non-fire sword powers from fiery melee for any tier of enemy to get to 100% reward.

 

(Edit: According to AE, it is if you lack any range powers for the mob that you take a massive hit on xp. No comment about inf'. Like I said though, inf' looks to be calculated from xp.)

 

 

I see; however, there in lies the conundrum. NPCs need to have melee abilities to bring them within melee range of the farmer. So if you take all of the melee abilities out and replace them with ranged, the NPCs will stay at range which is very counterproductive to the farmer. Me, even though I have a farmer, I really don't care if farming is in the game or not. I take advantage of it for the influence/infamy, but if one day it suddenly ceased to exist, I would shrug it off and not give it a second thought.

Having said all of that, there is a work around for this, not sure why others have not figured it out yet as the solutions seems very obvious to me.

 

Workaround 1: No more maps with a ceiling. (To be explained in Workaround 2)

 

Workaround 2: Watch your defense, when it drops below 35%, jump straight up in to the air using nothing but sprint and Athletic Run until the -defense drops off and you get back above 43%; the -Defense drops off rather quickly and then in which case, it's back to your regular farming program.

 

This -Defense in the NPC's fire melee abilities only costs me about 30 seconds per run in a Carnie Map...so it's not even an issue, but rather a minor annoyance.

 

My issue stands as this; Giving Fire Melee -Defense feels unfair to other sets that only have -defense. Now Fire Melee has -Defense and DoTs. I fail to see the mechanics logic in that.

[lemming]

18 hours ago, Rudra said:

That still makes no sense. Was anything else changed or was just the -DEF component added? If they just added the -DEF component without nerfing anything, then that does nothing to nerf fire farming. Making it easier to hit targets does not nerf farming.

It debufs the fire farmer since they're built to withstand fire, which now debuffs when they get hit and rapid death results.   So it hits a particular farmer going into a particular fire farm.    Farms that had a lot of fire swords tended to remove that aspect and got back to normal farming  results.

 

Anything that modifies some niche aspect that can be exploited via farming is an attack on farming from what I can tell.  Some people just don't like having to modify their routine.

 

addendum since I didn't note the other answers:

You can get the 100% Xp/inf without the swords on fire melee.  Ranged was needed anyway to reach it even without, but there are a few melee attacks that do not have -def tied to them.

Edited August 16, 2023 by lemming
hey look, there was a second page!

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 

I see; however, there in lies the conundrum. NPCs need to have melee abilities to bring them within melee range of the farmer. So if you take all of the melee abilities out and replace them with ranged, the NPCs will stay at range which is very counterproductive to the farmer.

Okay, except we are talking about Fiery Melee here, which is all melee except for the temporary buff and the single ranged attack (Breath of Fire). So as far as fire farms go, since the mobs in those farms use Fiery Melee, they will always be attempting to close for melee even if they aren't given any of the three fire sword attacks because except for Breath of Fire, all their attacks are melee.

 

Our discussion is a tangent from the thread, and I agree with you that the argument that the -DEF applied to the fire swords being to nerf fire farms is nonsensical, so I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm just saying that fire farms have not been nerfed by buffing the fire swords.

[WindDemon21]

18 hours ago, Sovera said:

It has both which is even worse since the game has gravity and inertia. So the KB is done with the character being pushed away at the same which further increases the distance travelled.

 

It's horrible.

 

And yes, the fire melee changes were not the best work of the HC team, bless. It was a slapdash boost to damage with a nonsensical reasoning. There's something we can say such as the fire melting armor and thus lowering defense? But it's out of place. Increasing damage numbers would have served best but the dev team is tied to their spreadsheets and the set was probably already at maximum budget for pure damage and thus proc damage was a way to increase the damage as a sideways upgrade.

 

It worked, Fire Melee needed it, so we can't argue with the results and only with the lack of elegance of how it was done.

We can certainly argue the results on aoe though. It's still completely stupid that they didn't change breath of fire for combustion. The set, which is supposed to be THE damage set, is actually one of the worst for aoe damage which completely goes against how fire should be. They really should swap combustion for breath of fire, it's fairly outrageous that it's not there on non-tanks tbh.

 

At the very least, in additional to lowering the cast time on BoF, if it HAD to stay there for some reason, it'd at least make sense as a Taoe, that explodes around the target with a 10ft minimum radius. But still, combustion should be there in the set. So dumb...

[biostem]

I have, ironically enough, a 50 fire/regen sentinel.  I respecced out of blazing blast, (the one with the repel), because it broke up the flow of my attack chain, and even sometimes pushed the enemy out of the already reduced range.  I wouldn't say the set overall is bad, but it definitely hurts not having that other heavy-hitter...

[arcane]

37 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

We can certainly argue the results on aoe though. It's still completely stupid that they didn't change breath of fire for combustion. The set, which is supposed to be THE damage set, is actually one of the worst for aoe damage which completely goes against how fire should be. They really should swap combustion for breath of fire, it's fairly outrageous that it's not there on non-tanks tbh.

 

At the very least, in additional to lowering the cast time on BoF, if it HAD to stay there for some reason, it'd at least make sense as a Taoe, that explodes around the target with a 10ft minimum radius. But still, combustion should be there in the set. So dumb...

I’m not sure what I think is ideal one way or the other, but I’m curious: would you be willing to give up Cremate instead for Combustion? After all, that’s what every non-tanker AT originally had to give up Combustion for…

[WindDemon21]

44 minutes ago, arcane said:

I’m not sure what I think is ideal one way or the other, but I’m curious: would you be willing to give up Cremate instead for Combustion? After all, that’s what every non-tanker AT originally had to give up Combustion for…

100% yes, thoguh cremate is nicer than incinerate for that knockdown. I'd say they still should, either on top, or instead, give incinerate knockdown as well. But yes, i will never play a non-tank fire melee again until they get combustion. The aoe is just TERRIBLE.

[WindDemon21]

Or better yet, ditch scorch, move fire sword to tier 1 (with 1s cast like the axe tier 1 has now same thing) and then cremate at tier 2.

 

That would be the ideal fire melee, and it'd still have breath of fire too that way.

Edited August 16, 2023 by WindDemon21

[Sovera]

16 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

We can certainly argue the results on aoe though. It's still completely stupid that they didn't change breath of fire for combustion. The set, which is supposed to be THE damage set, is actually one of the worst for aoe damage which completely goes against how fire should be. They really should swap combustion for breath of fire, it's fairly outrageous that it's not there on non-tanks tbh.

 

At the very least, in additional to lowering the cast time on BoF, if it HAD to stay there for some reason, it'd at least make sense as a Taoe, that explodes around the target with a 10ft minimum radius. But still, combustion should be there in the set. So dumb...

 

That's where the whole 'tied to speadsheet' thing comes in. At the time there was talk of adding something to Fire Breath to make it better, like having a super long DoT, but NPCs also got it, and though the angle was requested (I mean, just make Fire Breath akin to Frost, right?) the dreaded spreadsheets came in and it was decided the set was already at capacity to add more power into it.

[nihilii]

On 8/16/2023 at 11:25 AM, Fire Chief said:

I got KB'd from the team lol.

This made my day! Nice one 😂

[jkwak]

yeah, so the power in question has repell not actual KB, in the context of other animations which might happen if multiple people shoot the same target it, it might look a lot like KB

 

allowing you to slot KB to KD in to it wouldnt be so much out of the ordinary, a lot of Repell powers allow KB enhancements with the KB to KD working like a Repell to KD.

 

soo yeah i agree to the motion to allow Knockback enhancements there to use KB to KD... or do what ever silly build people can come up with... Repell the enemy to the other end of the map maybe? no idea how KB enhancements really work on repell when used there except for KB to KD

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, jkwak said:

yeah, so the power in question has repell not actual KB, in the context of other animations which might happen if multiple people shoot the same target it, it might look a lot like KB

 

allowing you to slot KB to KD in to it wouldnt be so much out of the ordinary, a lot of Repell powers allow KB enhancements with the KB to KD working like a Repell to KD.

 

soo yeah i agree to the motion to allow Knockback enhancements there to use KB to KD... or do what ever silly build people can come up with... Repell the enemy to the other end of the map maybe? no idea how KB enhancements really work on repell when used there except for KB to KD

Blazing Blast has both a repel effect and a KB effect. The repel effect lasts for 0.61 seconds, after which the KB triggers. As for KB enhancements on repel effects? To the best of my knowledge, they don't affect repel effects. They shouldn't even be affected by the KB to KD procs.

[Etched]

I fixed the title with the correct attack. Blazing Blast has repel, Knock, and Hold. 

Sorry for the confusion.

 

@Etched

[WindDemon21]

On 8/17/2023 at 7:59 AM, Sovera said:

 

That's where the whole 'tied to speadsheet' thing comes in. At the time there was talk of adding something to Fire Breath to make it better, like having a super long DoT, but NPCs also got it, and though the angle was requested (I mean, just make Fire Breath akin to Frost, right?) the dreaded spreadsheets came in and it was decided the set was already at capacity to add more power into it.

Who decided that? Cause they are completely and utterly stupid and wrong. The set has WAY too little aoe especially for being the main "damage" set. The set NEEDS another normal aoe via combustion (or making BoF taoe 10ft radius min). It's TERRIBLE and why i constantly try to make a fire melee scrapper, and always give shelve them because the aoe is just too piss poor. It NEEDS fixed, and the dumbest part, is that the fix is already there on the tank version via combustion. The set could just super easily have combustion instead of BoF. (The ONLY "reason" for BoF is for RP'ers, but that's still dumb. If you need a toon with that, go one of five other ATs that gets it. Don't completely ruin the set just for that. They could also whenever they get around to fixing hero epics, put fire breath in the epic too, but for the love of god get combustion back into the set instead of BoF!)

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Who decided that? Cause they are completely and utterly stupid and wrong. The set has WAY too little aoe especially for being the main "damage" set. The set NEEDS another normal aoe via combustion (or making BoF taoe 10ft radius min). It's TERRIBLE and why i constantly try to make a fire melee scrapper, and always give shelve them because the aoe is just too piss poor. It NEEDS fixed, and the dumbest part, is that the fix is already there on the tank version via combustion. The set could just super easily have combustion instead of BoF. (The ONLY "reason" for BoF is for RP'ers, but that's still dumb. If you need a toon with that, go one of five other ATs that gets it. Don't completely ruin the set just for that. They could also whenever they get around to fixing hero epics, put fire breath in the epic too, but for the love of god get combustion back into the set instead of BoF!)

And then we get players complaining about Breath of Fire being in the Ancillary Pool.

 

Breath of Fire makes no sense as a PBAoE attack. If players don't like the power though? This is a suggestion forum. Suggest some tweaks that doesn't completely change the power or take away a power other players use regardless of whether they are a majority or minority of the number of people using the power set.