Why Play Any Control Set Other Than Mind Control?

[Without_Pause]

3 hours ago, Rinwen said:

I forgot nothing.

 

I said that from a concept standpoint that I have several characters that I like, and specifically stated that I was asking from a PRACTICAL statement. 

 

"... Thematically of course I get it, I have several other Controller/Dom characters... one of my favorites from a concept/homage standpoint is my Grav/Time recreation of Graviton, (a Marvel comics Avenger's villain).

 

But from a practical standpoint, I don't understand. Sleep is orders of magnitude better than a root... "

 

From a practical point, both set up containment. Sleeps will prevent the target from attacking for the duration of the sleep as long as they take no damage. Rooting a target in place can be rather useful and more so as some mobs might actively try to to flee, see any slow power. No, they don't prevent the target from attacking. They are set up for consistent containment damage, which a sleep is one and done. So no, a sleep is not 'orders of magnitude better.' And, hear me out, rooting your target is bottom feeder of controls.

[Sanguinesun]

3 hours ago, Rinwen said:

 

 

But from a practical standpoint, I don't understand. Sleep is orders of magnitude better than a root... "

 

 

While sleeps are ok. A comparison with a root is a bit like comparing an orange to a bowling ball simply because they're round in some regards.

 

Are you factor

8 hours ago, Rinwen said:

 I've played every control set, I've bumped characters to Level 50 on Test, and kitted out every one of them in the best IO sets, (I like to plan ahead as to whether or not a particular class/set is worth my time in the long run on the regular servers).

 

Mind is the only one that SLEEPS thereby taking one or more enemies completely out of the fight.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Rinwen said:

 

 Actually, going through the powersets again, there are more ranged AoE sleeps/holds than I thought.

 

Disregard last transmission, lol. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Rinwen said:

No, it's not a troll thread... I've been gone for about 3 years or so... and I've forgotten a lot, obviously, lol. 

 

I play Dominators mostly, not Controllers because I like the damaging secondary. 

 

I recognize that you've amended your claims concerning sleeps across sets 8 hours then 2 hours respectively at the time of this writing but as a point of clarification, even 3 years ago other sets had sleeps.

 

That said, sleeps are just another tool in the shed.  Comparing them to immobilizes is like comparing an orange to a bowling ball simply because they're round and seeking to rank one better than the other is a mis-comparative situation. Functions/purpose, situational use, damage, and other points are not factored either.

 

Something else not comparatively considered.  Psionic damage type, especially in the 40-50+ range of mobs is one of the highest damage resisted types among the games mobs(2nd):

 

Galaxy Brain's Common Resist Chart - Google Sheets

 

All by 1 power (levitate=smashing and smashing's 4th on the resisted list) is psionic damage type.

 

And yes it doesnt have a pet which for some play styles, that is a practical loss because mass hypnosis has a 240s base recharge that typically just applies. So its just good for 1 group with a long wait to use again. Unlike the pets which can be up and contributing from group to group for the length of a mission or more commonly multiple missions.   

 

Mind isnt bad. Its fine. But the point is that when you start to draw comparisons to other sets and then use sleep as the pedestal from which to claim superiority for the set(and yes again erroneously as you've admitted to for the lack of sleeps from other sets), it really doesnt make for a compelling argument.

[Grouchybeast]

5 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Second): Sleep is utterly useless with the exception of Elec's version of it, which continuously applies Sleep even after Sleep is broken. Players love to attack things...and for some reason they especially love to attack things that have just been put to Sleep. It's a pointless power. Elec fixed that with their version, sadly, it was not applied to other powersets, so Elec has the only truly useful Sleep.

 

The only real use for Sleep that I can see is the fact that Sleep will drop toggles of NPCs that have no resistance to it, such as the Ruin Mages.

 

This is all very true in larger teams.  For soloing or duoing, though, Sleeps are excellent because they often get buffs like longer durations and autohit to make up for the downside that you're no longer experiencing of the mobs being woken up by team mates.  Under those circumstances they're top notch control powers.

[Zect]

5 hours ago, Sanguinesun said:

Something else not comparatively considered.  Psionic damage type, especially in the 40-50+ range of mobs is one of the highest damage resisted types among the games mobs(2nd):

 

Galaxy Brain's Common Resist Chart - Google Sheets

 

This makes the issue seem more serious than it really is. For trollers, most of their dps comes from procs and for doms, most of it from their assault and epic unless you are fire/, which  gives them the option of diversifying their damtype (though mind/psi does have its devotees).

 

Using your own source, from 1-20 psi is the 2nd best damtype, from 20-40 it is the 3rd best, and that outdated sheet does not include any of the enemy groups from GR onward anyway. Psi used to be bad in the old endgame, back when everything was malta, carnies, nemesis, rikti and arachnos, but as years went by newer endgame content has generally tried not to disadvantage psi as much, and it is neutral to strong in ITF, aeon, itrials (mostly IDF, some hami and BP) and hardmode. And you want to talk about not making a compelling argument! Lol.

 

I do wish they would reduce psi res on arachnos and beef up other resists to compensate; it's pretty insane that a tarantula has 50% and an augur only has 30%.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Zect

[MoonSheep]

10 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

It is more so on a Dom. /dark is arguably the strongest secondary or at least in the running. 

 

i’d say it’s a clear third, quite far under /fire and /energy

 

it’s a good set though, a decent allrounder

 

edit: and /fire paired with mind is a real winner, not just for the massive damage and low animation times - having everything at range is hugely beneficial

Edited August 25, 2023 by MoonSheep

[Scarlet Shocker]

8 hours ago, Supertanker said:

 

Sleep is the only auto-hit, though. It's nice not worrying about a bad roll.

 

Once you have a few powers in your armoury, auto-hit becomes quite unnecessary, because it's easy enough to tag an enemy with something solid.

[Neiska]

I think it really depends on if you are solo or on a team. But it's 100% fine to like something that isn't kiss-your-elbow mathematically superior too. I have only tried 1-2 controllers, and just couldn't get into them. I may try again sometime, but for me it just led to frustration.

[honoroit]

benefits of mind:

 

no projectiles, hit on cast execute.

 

mesmerize - its awesome st at lvl 1, has boosted range.  

 

mass hypnosis - while cast time 2s, it takes effect in 0.9s, making it feel, and practically be, very quick. 45s base recharge.  its problem is thats all mind really has on tap besides terrify.  and it breaks when a mob is hit. 

 

telekenisis - good (toggle) but nerfed into the ground to only affect 5 monsters. contract this with teen abilities like static field, earthquake, ice slick, cold snap, fearsome stare (at lvl 8!)... it should hit more than 5.  benefit most for dom mag stacking.

 

terrify - good cone. but not as good as illusions repeating spooky immune pet and its built in tohit debuff, nor symphonys cone (because of reverberant echo), but is better than darks fear cone.

 

total domination - too long CD. its one of the 4 min ones. less hasslesome when higher recharge in build, but people spamming nukes on other at that do as much as 65% to hit debuff, floor defense, or just kill them... theyre doing this at half the base recharge of the aoe holds.

 

mass confuse - decent, but inferior to seeds of confusion, arguably the elec chain confuse. why? too long base CD.

 

to not be horrifically underpowered on control classes, id suggest:

 

if you wanna cc lots:

earth

dark

ice (since the buffs)

symphony

elec

plant

 

if you wanna fold space and /kin:

gravity/kin

fire/kin

 

if you want a spot on hard content and a bit of tohit debuff AND a immune tanker:

illu/dark

 

if you wana mind-like, with less trash and better overall oomph:

fortunata.

Edited August 25, 2023 by honoroit

[cranebump]

7 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Sleep is utterly useless …

 

Sleep will drop toggles of NPCs that have no resistance to it, such as the Ruin Mages.

So, my friend sleep is only mostly dead?

[Snarky]

My 2 inf.  AoE sleep.  This is the equivalent of Jackie Chan using a crate to stop a moving car. It gives just enough time to get out of the way.  In a team environment those people are woken right back up over 90% time.  But it slows down the incoming attacks.  The Fear… now that is sweet.  The Hold is of course great, but not up often enough.  The Confuse…. That is a money maker when you learn to use it right

[Rinwen]

Ok, to be clear...

 

I'm a solo'er exclusively, so no one breaks my sleeps.

 

I'd forgotten, (been away about 3 years), that there are AoE/PBAoE sleeps/holds in just about every set, mea culpa, I apologize. Some though are on extremely long timers to be nigh useless in every fight... heck maybe even every two fights, lol.

 

My Mass Hypnosis refreshes in about 13'ish seconds, and can be used a second time in the same fight on larger packs, and most definitely as my opener in EVERY fight.

 

So, yes, I'd forgotten about the various sleeps/holds of other sets, and again apologize for this thread.

 

Also, to reiterate, my main objective IS fun, hence multiple different Doms/Trollers.

 

Thinking about rerolling my Dominator Graviton homage from Grav/Energy to Grav/Earth to emulate using Gravity powers to hurl various chunks of Earth at my target... but that's a topic for a different thread.

 

Again, my apologies for jumping the gun before "re-familiarizing" myself with the various power sets.

 

 

[Luminara]

5 minutes ago, Rinwen said:

Some though are on extremely long timers to be nigh useless in every fight... heck maybe even every two fights, lol.

 

They're all on the same 45s base recharge time as Mass Hypnosis (except Static Field, which is 40s).

[Rinwen]

2 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

They're all on the same 45s base recharge time as Mass Hypnosis (except Static Field, which is 40s).

Really?

 

I'll have to take a look at my recharge values/kit on my various Doms/Trollers... on both my Mind Dom & Troller it recycles in about 13'ish seconds, (my Dom is Perma-Dom), and I thought I had my other various Doms/Trollers kitted out the same way... maybe not 🤷

 

Probably time to quit posting, and do more research, lol.

 

Thank you all.

[nihilii]

I absolutely love the fact CoH has enough gameplay range OP can hold this opinion (regarding the power of AoE sleeps). And I firmly believe it is a legit opinion. I've had a great deal of fun abusing AoE sleeps on a couple of my solo characters, it truly is an underrated mechanic at times given it's functionally a mez that's ~4-10x more potent than other mez classes if you're a disciplined single target hitter.

[High_Beam]

10 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

That gif is freaking perfect!  And just more proof of Eddie Murphy's comic ability.

[High_Beam]

Mind Control.  Pffft.

 

Symphonic Control is the S Class control 🙂

 

 

 

[honoroit]

44 minutes ago, High_Beam said:

Mind Control.  Pffft.

 

Symphonic Control is the S Class control 🙂

 

 

 

 

it does eclipse mind, and imma mind fanboy.

 

symphony/dark dom with combat tp (for dark pbaoe in and out) is a joy.

 

symphony/fire, or symphony/thorny too.

 

the echo pet is undervalued, it contributes a lot of magnitude, which on dom, is like putting mag 9s with a slight delay on the +3.

[srmalloy]

18 hours ago, Eldyem said:

In fact, Sleep is one of the least effective forms of AoE lockdown.

Only in teams, where throwing out an AoE Sleep, then watching a teammate knee-jerk 'more damage is better' and flinging an AoE damage attack to wake up all the mobs you just slept, is part and parcel of playing a Controller

[Rinwen]

Ya know, I thought the few comments about Symphony were some kind of joke, only to look it up and see that it's a real set 😲

 

I then looked at YouTube and saw visuals of the powers... OMG that's my next toon.

 

I  play Bards/Minstrels in every MMO, and Tyroc from the Legion of Superheroes is one of my favorites... so time to make an homage to him 😁

[tidge]

13 hours ago, Supertanker said:

Sleep is the only auto-hit, though. It's nice not worrying about a bad roll.

 

5 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Once you have a few powers in your armoury, auto-hit becomes quite unnecessary, because it's easy enough to tag an enemy with something solid.

 

I'm with @Supertanker.

 

I don't use Mass Hypnosis very often on my Mind/Poison Controller, until:

1. I'm on a team that is missing a LOT of attacks,
2. I'm suddenly drawing a LOT of aggro

It is mostly true that (2) isn't that much of an issue... up until a second spawn has its attention drawn to me! The first condition is (in my experience) rather common. All it takes is running x8 missions at a higher level of difficulty(*1), and/or "splitting the party". I don't a priori object to players on a team splitting up, this circumstance is most problematic when players are not entirely sensitive to the capabilities of teammates. If everyone is hitting with their attacks/controls... an AoE Sleep is far from optimal. If a majority of players are making and missing attacks... it can be a godsend.

 

(*1) For example: that first room on a Frostfire mission with a +4x8 setting.

[UltraAlt]

20 hours ago, Rinwen said:

Am I missing something? 

 

Do you ever team up with other players?

[Rinwen]

10 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Do you ever team up with other players?

 

Nope.

[UltraAlt]

1 minute ago, Rinwen said:

Nope.

 

Then that is why you don't see the downside to sleep.

If you are on a team and have sleep powers, pretty much as soon as you use them, someone is going to wake up whomever you slept.

 

I do feel sorry for you that you don't team up though. Teaming up is what makes the game really fun for me.

[Rinwen]

4 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Then that is why you don't see the downside to sleep.

If you are on a team and have sleep powers, pretty much as soon as you use them, someone is going to wake up whomever you slept.

 

I do feel sorry for you that you don't team up though. Teaming up is what makes the game really fun for me.

 

Thank you, but actually I know that, it's the same as "mez" in every MMO out there.

 

I probably also should have clarified in my OP, (though I did do so in subsequent posts), that I am a solo'er exclusively. 

[tidge]

1 minute ago, Rinwen said:

Thank you, but actually I know that, it's the same as "mez" in every MMO out there.

 

In the context of 'solonly', I disagree (with caveats). If nothing else, the other AoE mez powers are typically much better at helping clear maps, because of %damage. As I implied in the linked post... Mass Hypnosis is pretty much a contingency power (in solo, on teams) for use when things go pear-shaped. A well-slotted Terrify (also from Mind Control) is IMO a far better power to use whenever it is available.