Why Play Any Control Set Other Than Mind Control?

[Rinwen]

I'm putting this in General because the question applies to both Controllers and Dominators.

 

I've played every control set, I've bumped characters to Level 50 on Test, and kitted out every one of them in the best IO sets, (I like to plan ahead as to whether or not a particular class/set is worth my time in the long run on the regular servers).

 

Mind is the only one that SLEEPS thereby taking one or more enemies completely out of the fight.

 

Every other control set can only root... so I'm still getting hit by ranged attacks... which can be deadly.

 

While none of those maxed characters has died yet, (except in Pergrine Isle when taking on 2x OJ Bosses... my Mind Controller and Dom have NEVER died to this match up by the way), they end the fight CONSIDERABLY more beat up than my Mind guys, who essentially finish fights at full HP because nothing ever wakes up to launch any kind of attack; ranged or melee.

 

Thematically of course I get it, I have several other Controller/Dom characters... one of my favorites from a concept/homage standpoint is my Grav/Time recreation of Graviton, (a Marvel comics Avenger's villain).

 

But from a practical standpoint, I don't understand. Sleep is orders of magnitude better than a root. 

 

Am I missing something? 

 

I appreciate your insight. 

[cranebump]

Um...what about this, from Plant?

 

Are you referring to Total Domination?

Edited August 24, 2023 by cranebump

[Rinwen]

2 minutes ago, cranebump said:

Um...what about this, from Plant?

 

Are you referring to Total Domination?

 

Thank you. 

 

I'm referring to Mass Hypnosis for an AoE Sleep... wonder how I missed this power though?

 

Actually, going through the powersets again, there are more ranged AoE sleeps/holds than I thought.

 

Disregard last transmission, lol. 

[MoonSheep]

as a mind/fire/ice dom main i approve of this post

[cranebump]

5 minutes ago, Rinwen said:

 

Thank you. 

 

I'm referring to Mass Hypnosis for an AoE Sleep... wonder how I missed this power though?

 

Actually, going through the powersets again, there are more ranged AoE sleeps/holds than I thought.

 

Disregard last transmission, lol. 

Heh. Noted (and been there done this).:-) I think a reminder of the efficacy of Sleep powers is useful. I have a plant Troller who makes use of it in certain situations. It's definitely helpful on teams running against huge, packed groups, where maybe you don't have the tankiness to pull in more than 1 mob.

[Eldyem]

Am I missing some context here? Every Control set has multiple forms of AoE lockdown. AoE sleeps aren't even unique to Mind Control. Holds and Stuns completely stop enemies from attacking, Confuses stop them from attacking you, and Fears slow down how often enemies attack considerably. In fact, Sleep is one of the least effective forms of AoE lockdown.

[Psyonico]

43 minutes ago, Eldyem said:

 In fact, Sleep is one of the least effective forms of AoE lockdown.

Unless you're electric control

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Rinwen said:

Mind is the only one that SLEEPS thereby taking one or more enemies completely out of the fight.

 

Every other control set can only root...

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=controller_control.earth_control.salt_crystals&at=controller

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=controller_control.electric_control.static_field&at=controller

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=controller_control.ice_control.flash_freeze&at=controller

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=controller_control.plant_control.spore_burst&at=controller

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=controller_control.symphony_control.enfeebling_lullaby&at=controller

 

1 hour ago, Rinwen said:

I've played every control set, I've bumped characters to Level 50 on Test, and kitted out every one of them in the best IO sets,

 

I think you missed one... or five...

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, Rinwen said:

But from a practical standpoint, I don't understand. Sleep is orders of magnitude better than a root. 

 

Am I missing something? 

 

I appreciate your insight. 

1. Now be on a team.

2. I currently don't have the Immobilization powers on my Fire/time although that will change.

3. Immobilization powers are merely there for controlling a mob's position, and likely used for damage.

4. If I am looking to control a mob, holds, and AoE mezzes are for that.

5. Even on my Symphony controller, I slot the Sleep for damage.

 

Also, if you aren't dying, you aren't trying.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Without_Pause

[Mezmera]

I do love me some Mind doms.  Buuuuuttt in overall effectiveness in teams and whatnot I'm gonna have to go with Plant as the bar for control characters and every other control is living under its shadow.  

 

Yes the sleep is nice in that it doesn't notify and its auto hit but like others have pointed out here  there's a lot of controls that get an aoe sleep, granted in my opinion only electric's is the most effective since it pulses that sleep for when your teammates do eventually nudge them awake with all of their aoe damage.  

 

In terms of strictly aoe control potential I am with you that Mind control has it in spades compared to all the others.  I don't bother with that sleep though, Terrify is a great soft control along with the hard aoe control you get from Total Domination and Mass Confusion.  Then yes if you still feel the need for more aoe control there's Mass Hypnosis.  

Edited August 24, 2023 by Mezmera

[honoroit]

@Rinwen, kupo, you have to try elec control if you like sleep.  it is unsurpassed (its called static field) as a sleep skill - because it pulses.

 

this means when you or others hit the monster, it can go back to sleep, and will.  it also recharges quicker than its expiration with even moderate global recharge.

 

oh, and it also does end drain.

 

MIND - its best is telekinesis, on a dominator.  because a floor of mag6 hold you can toggle onto a hard target.

 

however, tbh, mind is eclipsed by symphony on dom for me.

 

on controller - it is hard to beat dark/dark - they cant hit.  its sorta boring tho.

 

elec/elec is a splendid support on controller.

 

if I had to take mind, on controller... mind / time, mind / kin... something to get that awful recharge on mass confuse down....

 

oh, elec has a chain confuse on a shorter-than-4m cooldown also.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

By the OPs metrics (which I think others have suggested - and I agree - are borked) the object is to put targets to sleep and then deal with them individually which is a very narrow perspective. My Dark/Poison, Earth Wind and Fire, Fire/TA, Illusion/Dark and many others all agree with me

 

I've played literally hundreds of controllers in game (including a couple of Mind trollers) and I think there is one very very significant point the OP has missed in his notion of success:

 

FUN!

 

Each control set has strengths and weaknesses and part of that is discovering what works, what doesn't, when is Power X appropriate to use, is Tactic Y viable, etc?

 

If we take his reductive view to it's N^th conclusion, we end up with a simple on/off switch. That's not a game I want to play.

 

Personally I think Mind Control is quite boring. It can be very very strong at disabling enemies, I completely agree but it takes a LOT to compensate for the damage it lacks.

 

I also note he takes no account of secondary powers which can augment and compliment (and sometimes completely fuck wiith) your chosen primary. A good example might be Earth/Thermal vs Earth/TA - the former being absolutely amazing in my experience, the latter being highly lacklustre, which is odd, given the way Fire/TA synergises.

 

Mind/TA is also horrid horrid horrid. Sure, it gets the job done but there are so many more efficient ways of doing it.

 

Mind control has its place, its good points (Mind Controllers on MoM trials help immensely IME) its bad points but it will never be more than one of many that make this game so enjoyably strong and long lived.

 

 

[Snarky]

On a lark I went Mind/Dark Dom for my current main.  I have to admit mind control is really strong.

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

On a lark I went Mind/Dark Dom for my current main.  I have to admit mind control is really strong.

It is more so on a Dom. /dark is arguably the strongest secondary or at least in the running. 

[Rinwen]

2 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

By the OPs metrics (which I think others have suggested - and I agree - are borked) the object is to put targets to sleep and then deal with them individually which is a very narrow perspective. My Dark/Poison, Earth Wind and Fire, Fire/TA, Illusion/Dark and many others all agree with me

 

I've played literally hundreds of controllers in game (including a couple of Mind trollers) and I think there is one very very significant point the OP has missed in his notion of success:

 

FUN!

 

Each control set has strengths and weaknesses and part of that is discovering what works, what doesn't, when is Power X appropriate to use, is Tactic Y viable, etc?

 

If we take his reductive view to it's N^th conclusion, we end up with a simple on/off switch. That's not a game I want to play.

 

Personally I think Mind Control is quite boring. It can be very very strong at disabling enemies, I completely agree but it takes a LOT to compensate for the damage it lacks.

 

I also note he takes no account of secondary powers which can augment and compliment (and sometimes completely fuck wiith) your chosen primary. A good example might be Earth/Thermal vs Earth/TA - the former being absolutely amazing in my experience, the latter being highly lacklustre, which is odd, given the way Fire/TA synergises.

 

Mind/TA is also horrid horrid horrid. Sure, it gets the job done but there are so many more efficient ways of doing it.

 

Mind control has its place, its good points (Mind Controllers on MoM trials help immensely IME) its bad points but it will never be more than one of many that make this game so enjoyably strong and long lived.

 

 

I forgot nothing.

 

I said that from a concept standpoint that I have several characters that I like, and specifically stated that I was asking from a PRACTICAL statement. 

 

"... Thematically of course I get it, I have several other Controller/Dom characters... one of my favorites from a concept/homage standpoint is my Grav/Time recreation of Graviton, (a Marvel comics Avenger's villain).

 

But from a practical standpoint, I don't understand. Sleep is orders of magnitude better than a root... "

 

[macskull]

Is this thread a troll thread? I'm not sure it isn't.

 

Mind is a pretty solid Dominator primary despite the lack of a pet, but it's not anything to write home about on a Controller.

[Biff Pow]

5 hours ago, Eldyem said:

Am I missing some context here? Every Control set has multiple forms of AoE lockdown. AoE sleeps aren't even unique to Mind Control. Holds and Stuns completely stop enemies from attacking, Confuses stop them from attacking you, and Fears slow down how often enemies attack considerably. In fact, Sleep is one of the least effective forms of AoE lockdown.

 

Sleep is the only auto-hit, though. It's nice not worrying about a bad roll.

[Rinwen]

Just now, macskull said:

Is this thread a troll thread? I'm not sure it isn't.

 

Mind is a pretty solid Dominator primary despite the lack of a pet, but it's not anything to write home about on a Controller.

No, it's not a troll thread... I've been gone for about 3 years or so... and I've forgotten a lot, obviously, lol. 

 

I play Dominators mostly, not Controllers because I like the damaging secondary. 

[Tacheyon]

I hope you meant to say Earth Control.  Yes Earth Control is the only Control power you should play.  It has a slow patch, it has a knock up patch, it has a pulsing Hold patch.  It can Sleep, Stun, Hold and do pretty much anything except Fear and Confuse.  And really who needs those 😁

Also you have the best Pet that will Tank everything for you....who cares if he looks like Poo!

 

So yes Earth Control is the only Controller you should be playing.

[Onlyasandwich]

1 hour ago, Rinwen said:

But from a practical standpoint, I don't understand. Sleep is orders of magnitude better than a root... "

 

Sleep is indeed a bit undervalued as others above have highlighted.

 

Welcome back to the game!

 

Forgive me, as I'm not quite clear on your intention here based on what you have said thus far. It sounds as if you are saying Sleep is the best form of control, and that "Every other control set can only root."

 

As others have pointed out, there are certainly more forms of control than Sleep and Root, and every single control set has multiple. Stun and Hold are more powerful than sleep, given that they keep the enemy from retaliating at all even if you hit them, whereas sleep will be broken upon damage. These are fairly basic tenets of the game, so you might understand our collective confusion.

 

Perhaps this is obvious to you and we are all misunderstanding your intention! This is however very directly what your posts thus far are stating.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Onlyasandwich

[Luminara]

45 minutes ago, macskull said:

Is this thread a troll thread?

 

[WumpusRat]

2 hours ago, Rinwen said:

 

But from a practical standpoint, I don't understand. Sleep is orders of magnitude better than a root... "

 

Situationally, yes. And generally those situations happen more often when you're soloing.

In a large team, sleep is inefficient, since it leaves mobs just standing around in a large area, rather than clumping them together to be obliterated by aoe's.

On a team, I've often found that aoe immobilization is incredibly useful IF you time it properly. When the enemies all pile onto the tank/whoever has aggro, you aoe immob them into place, especially if your immob keeps them from being knocked back, and then damage pours down on them to erase them. 

I've been on a number of teams where people with aoe knockback powers were quite happy that they could just cut loose without worry once they saw the immobilize go off, and the mobs wouldn't go flying.

 

But in the end, the best form of control is a dead mob. Dead mobs cannot deal damage. 🙂

[Solarverse]

8 hours ago, Rinwen said:

I'm putting this in General because the question applies to both Controllers and Dominators.

 

I've played every control set, I've bumped characters to Level 50 on Test, and kitted out every one of them in the best IO sets, (I like to plan ahead as to whether or not a particular class/set is worth my time in the long run on the regular servers).

 

Mind is the only one that SLEEPS thereby taking one or more enemies completely out of the fight.

 

Every other control set can only root... so I'm still getting hit by ranged attacks... which can be deadly.

 

While none of those maxed characters has died yet, (except in Pergrine Isle when taking on 2x OJ Bosses... my Mind Controller and Dom have NEVER died to this match up by the way), they end the fight CONSIDERABLY more beat up than my Mind guys, who essentially finish fights at full HP because nothing ever wakes up to launch any kind of attack; ranged or melee.

 

Thematically of course I get it, I have several other Controller/Dom characters... one of my favorites from a concept/homage standpoint is my Grav/Time recreation of Graviton, (a Marvel comics Avenger's villain).

 

But from a practical standpoint, I don't understand. Sleep is orders of magnitude better than a root. 

 

Am I missing something? 

 

I appreciate your insight. 

 

First): It is absolutely not the only set that Sleeps, have you not taken a look at Ice? How about Elec or Plant?

 

Second): Sleep is utterly useless with the exception of Elec's version of it, which continuously applies Sleep even after Sleep is broken. Players love to attack things...and for some reason they especially love to attack things that have just been put to Sleep. It's a pointless power. Elec fixed that with their version, sadly, it was not applied to other powersets, so Elec has the only truly useful Sleep.

 

The only real use for Sleep that I can see is the fact that Sleep will drop toggles of NPCs that have no resistance to it, such as the Ruin Mages.

[Solarverse]

8 hours ago, Rinwen said:

 

Thank you. 

 

I'm referring to Mass Hypnosis for an AoE Sleep... wonder how I missed this power though?

 

Actually, going through the powersets again, there are more ranged AoE sleeps/holds than I thought.

 

Disregard last transmission, lol. 

 

Okay, I see you have already been educated a bit, so disregard my last transmission.  🙂

[Lazarillo]

Why play Mind Control, when I can play a Fortunata?

(Okay, besides the fact that I can't color my Fortunata powers.)