Sigh...this is why we can't have nice things.

[ivanhedgehog]

4 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Are we playing city of stockbrokers or city of heroes? With the devs bumping up enemy difficulties, more people will have to start enhancing toons at lower levels. The devs could have a weekly restock of all salvage to keep the costs of just salvage down. Let the market for everything else go, but manage salvage.

[Digirium]

I will pay twice what the vendor will buy salvage for to help other players get their badges.

 

Players play their games in the auction house until their game ends. Right now instead of selling yellows to the vendor I am selling them on AH for five times what I would normally buy them for when I need yellows. I will never buy yellows at inflated rates because everything I could need is in SG salvage racks.

 

And their game in the AH always ends, it always does. I have seen it all before. It is unsustainable due to loss and burnout they receive the answer they needed.

[tidge]

Stupid level 7 market tricks: those 100-merit PVP recipes are incredibly cheap to craft at the lowest levels! Level 7's should be making a killing.

[Hedgefund]

The only "killing" someone would make is the relative value of their merits if they use a 20M inf asset (100 merits) to acquire a 5-6M inf asset (at this moment, none of the uniques for Shield Wall, Glad Armor or Panacea exceeded 5.25M in the last 5 sales).

[Hardship]

I find that I get more yellows than I need as drops. Just sell them, then use the proceeds to buy the yellows you need. Yes, you are paying more for the yellows than you used to, but you're also selling your yellows for more than you used to -- seems like a wash to me.

 

-H

 

[Sovera]

Is it really a problem when one (1) merit can be raw sold for something like 200k?

[SwitchFade]

On 10/27/2023 at 10:53 AM, Perfidy said:

So, I completely see your point, and Yomo's above. But there are a number of folks who have no idea how this is done. Those 80-90% of folks who <gasp> have never even heard of Yomo, let alone knew to ask him for 20M no questions asked. 

They are just there to play, organically, without thought to how to kit out their characters, or any thought to how to finance the items required to kit out the character. So, their ignorance results in an artificial increase in the volume of cries about how hard it is to earn inf. Fun comes in a variety of different ways for different people. Some folks are NEVER going to accept the tedium of bidding low and selling high in a game. They're just not going to do it, no matter how fantastic the YouTube videos by Dahle and the written guides here by Yomo are. 

Hi.

 

I play all my toons up from atlas, to hollows, to faultline to Croatia. They all self fund.

 

And I min max all of them. Every toon I have ends up with a 600mill to 1bill inf build.

 

With the 5 prestige enhances,  and drops, I don't even need SOs until lvl 15. By then I always get yellow and orange salvage drops, which I list as I play. By lvl 10 I have at least 500k to buy and sell SOs as needed and that's with 2xp on and no inf earning.

 

By lvl 15 I have 79 merits from doing habashy, then all hollows arcs.

 

With 79 merits, I can make 80 million in 20 minutes, marketing.

 

So, I get that white salvage over 2k inf is odd, but in no way is it detrimental, even  if it hit 10k. Even if I didn't market, I could still use those 79 merits to make converters and sell them for 70k each.

 

If I was so new that I knew none of that, I wouldn't have 2xp boosters and I would be at lvl 1-15 twice as long, earning inf as well as drops, which negates half your claim. Which means I don't even know how to craft, negating the other half of your claim.

 

If one is experienced enough to know that salvage prices are fluctuating, one is experienced enough to know how to avoid, mitigate or not care because salvage is not needed at lvl 1-15 or if one does craft, 10k is pocket lint.

 

Sorry, the claims here are not supported by evidence and I remain unconvinced.

[tidge]

25 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Is it really a problem when one (1) merit can be raw sold for something like 200k?

 

This isn't applicable to low-level characters, but level 50 Recipes sell to vendors for an average of of 100K Inf. SO Enhancement drops vendor for an average of 12K Inf.

 

5 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Sorry, the claims here are not supported by evidence and I remain unconvinced.

(+1)

I personally find it odd that folks do weird things on the yellow salvage market... it is something of a 'choke point' for set enhancements (and some SG base buffs), but trying to buy so much (for self-crafting or market manipulation) strikes me as highly inefficient.

 

If there are "new players" who are being injured by the AH price of (fungible) yellow salvage... I have to believe that those players now know enough to not really be affected by it because they presumably know how to earn merits and what can be done with those merits. To echo @SwitchFade... it's incredibly straightforward to collect a significant number of merits by simply exploring and playing content. I have trouble imagining that a "new player" is attuned to recipe crafting (and wants to jump into it) but is ignorant about other aspects of the game.

 

For example: A newly minted blue-side character can immediately go to Atlas Park -> Recluse's Victory to be "Entrusted with a Secret"... and after leveling up (almost trivial with AP contacts) can be in a position to run the lowest Ouro arcs (in Atlas Park) for merits. IIRC Red side low-level arcs are slightly more rewarding for merits, but getting the Ouro badge on a starting red-sider is not as trivial... and the travel around Mercy Island can be frustrating. If the players literally don't know about Ouroboros, they can run arcs as usual and get clued in via contacts.

[Snarky]

41 minutes ago, tidge said:

... I have to believe that those players now know enough to not really be affected by it because they presumably know

Lot of good points Tidge.  But...fatal flaw.

 

Assuming people "now know" is a crap bet.  Ask any of the endless streams of scammers making money off the endless queues of ignorant people who cannot wait for product X

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 10/27/2023 at 1:06 PM, Perfidy said:

Or, you could be level 7 and need some salvage to craft a nifty recipe you got from the AH at a bargain. But the rascally marketing cabal has seen fit to bid higher than "normal" and have sucked up all the cheap supply, and then they relist it even higher prices. It's a short term manipulation that won't last. But, for that level 7 or other lowbie trying to craft something on the cheap - it's not so inexpensive to them. 
 

 

On 10/27/2023 at 1:53 PM, Perfidy said:

 But there are a number of folks who have no idea how this is done. 

They are just there to play, organically, without thought to how to kit out their characters, or any thought to how to finance the items required to kit out the character. So, their ignorance results in an artificial increase in the volume of cries about how hard it is to earn inf. Fun comes in a variety of different ways for different people. Some folks are NEVER going to accept the tedium of bidding low and selling high in a game. 

 

I am very compassionate towards letting people play how they want to play, but I do see a small inconsistency here.  If the level 7 knows enough that they are looking to buy salvage on the /AH, don't they also know enough that they can sell their salvage on the market as well?  In that case, as mentioned earlier, selling two unneeded pieces of salvage should be more than enough to buy the one piece they do need.

 

On a bit of a segue, every once in a while I play a character completely organically without using the /AH at all, and salvage is the main stumbling block.  If you are looking for a specific piece, especially if it's orange, it can be a drag to start farming arcane/tech enemies in the hope that your specific piece will drop.  This is one case where running AE missions for tickets is very useful.  You can trade in tickets for salvage by tiers, so if you want, for example, a luck charm, you swap 8 tickets for a common low arcane salvage and have a 1/6 chance of getting your luck charm.  Thanks to math, doing this 4 times gives you roughly a 50-50 shot of getting what you need, and doing it 25 times gives you about a 99% chance.  200 tickets don't take very long to earn at all.

 

[tidge]

6 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Lot of good points Tidge.  But...fatal flaw.

 

Assuming people "now know" is a crap bet.  Ask any of the endless streams of scammers making money off the endless queues of ignorant people who cannot wait for product X

 

I think it is a greater logical flaw to make guesses that players know about one aspect of the game (Auction House Salvage) and not about other aspect of the games. I include in this "I want that specific dope enhancement" aspect. I seriously doubt there exits a new player who knows about a PVP Panacea piece and only knows about yellow salvage prices in the AH as some means of getting that piece. I am aware that folks can compartmentalize what they want to know... but I am highly skeptical that any lone player would somehow discover they want certain specific enhancement pieces and remain ignorant about so much of the rest of the game.

 

Organically, players will get a pop-up about "first piece of salvage" and "first merit reward" but (from memory) the in-game explanation for the auction house comes only at the completion of the University crafting arc.

[Snarky]

9 minutes ago, tidge said:

but I am highly skeptical that any lone player would somehow discover they want certain specific enhancement pieces and remain ignorant about so much of the rest of the game.

 

Well, I suppose your faith in your fellow man should be.... commended.

 

By the way, you have never held any teaching positions have you?

 

 

[ivanhedgehog]

54 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

 

I am very compassionate towards letting people play how they want to play, but I do see a small inconsistency here.  If the level 7 knows enough that they are looking to buy salvage on the /AH, don't they also know enough that they can sell their salvage on the market as well?  In that case, as mentioned earlier, selling two unneeded pieces of salvage should be more than enough to buy the one piece they do need.

 

On a bit of a segue, every once in a while I play a character completely organically without using the /AH at all, and salvage is the main stumbling block.  If you are looking for a specific piece, especially if it's orange, it can be a drag to start farming arcane/tech enemies in the hope that your specific piece will drop.  This is one case where running AE missions for tickets is very useful.  You can trade in tickets for salvage by tiers, so if you want, for example, a luck charm, you swap 8 tickets for a common low arcane salvage and have a 1/6 chance of getting your luck charm.  Thanks to math, doing this 4 times gives you roughly a 50-50 shot of getting what you need, and doing it 25 times gives you about a 99% chance.  200 tickets don't take very long to earn at all.

 

If everyone markets like this...no one will make money. the supply would skyrocket and there would be no demand. The more sellers there are, the less buyers there are.

[Mjolnerd]

On 10/27/2023 at 10:53 AM, Perfidy said:

Fun comes in a variety of different ways for different people. Some folks are NEVER going to accept the tedium of bidding low and selling high in a game.

 

On 10/28/2023 at 12:12 PM, ivanhedgehog said:

Are we playing city of stockbrokers or city of heroes? With the devs bumping up enemy difficulties, more people will have to start enhancing toons at lower levels. The devs could have a weekly restock of all salvage to keep the costs of just salvage down. Let the market for everything else go, but manage salvage.

 

These both nail my outlook. The market isn't fun, it's not why I play a game -- any game. Even proponents don't make it sound exciting. I've tried the different techniques, and after about 20 minutes I'm falling asleep. It feels like homework, not heroics. Somehow, converter roulette makes running the same farm with the same enemies for the tenth time today seem like a vastly preferable way to spend that time, so that's what I do instead. And I'm not new by any means, I've been playing since about Issue 4 or so right up until sunset, and on HC since literally the first day it was open to the public.

 

There's a reason that superhero comics, movies and TV shows don't show Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne sitting in finance meetings going over quarterly projections, or Peter Parker balancing his checkbook. They'll mention that those things exist, sure, but they aren't going to make the audience actually watch that stuff -- because it's about as exciting as watching a particularly uninteresting shade of off-white paint dry. It's the same reason even shows where real-time is part of the gimmick like 24 didn't actually take the time to show Jack Bauer using the toilet or waiting at a red light.

 

I understand there's money to be made, and if that's working out for you, cool. But games are supposed to be fun, and that's not fun for me. Sure, I could spend two hours of my day managing my stock portfolio and probably have a higher balance in my bank account than I do now, but I could also spend that time watching a movie or hanging out with my kid or cooking a nice dinner, you know?

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, Mjolnerd said:

 

 

These both nail my outlook. The market isn't fun, it's not why I play a game -- any game. Even proponents don't make it sound exciting. I've tried the different techniques, and after about 20 minutes I'm falling asleep. It feels like homework, not heroics. Somehow, converter roulette makes running the same farm with the same enemies for the tenth time today seem like a vastly preferable way to spend that time, so that's what I do instead. And I'm not new by any means, I've been playing since about Issue 4 or so right up until sunset, and on HC since literally the first day it was open to the public.

 

There's a reason that superhero comics, movies and TV shows don't show Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne sitting in finance meetings going over quarterly projections, or Peter Parker balancing his checkbook. They'll mention that those things exist, sure, but they aren't going to make the audience actually watch that stuff -- because it's about as exciting as watching a particularly uninteresting shade of off-white paint dry. It's the same reason even shows where real-time is part of the gimmick like 24 didn't actually take the time to show Jack Bauer using the toilet or waiting at a red light.

 

I understand there's money to be made, and if that's working out for you, cool. But games are supposed to be fun, and that's not fun for me. Sure, I could spend two hours of my day managing my stock portfolio and probably have a higher balance in my bank account than I do now, but I could also spend that time watching a movie or hanging out with my kid or cooking a nice dinner, you know?

 

 

Then don't. Play the game. Sell the raw merits. I slotted 95% of my characters just selling merits instead of using them, no farming either. Just playing the game.

 

I did make abundant use of /respec to transfer 600-800 million worth of IOs between alts instead of grinding the gear for each new alt.

[SwitchFade]

4 hours ago, Mjolnerd said:

 

 

These both nail my outlook. The market isn't fun, it's not why I play a game -- any game. Even proponents don't make it sound exciting. I've tried the different techniques, and after about 20 minutes I'm falling asleep. It feels like homework, not heroics. Somehow, converter roulette makes running the same farm with the same enemies for the tenth time today seem like a vastly preferable way to spend that time, so that's what I do instead. And I'm not new by any means, I've been playing since about Issue 4 or so right up until sunset, and on HC since literally the first day it was open to the public.

 

There's a reason that superhero comics, movies and TV shows don't show Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne sitting in finance meetings going over quarterly projections, or Peter Parker balancing his checkbook. They'll mention that those things exist, sure, but they aren't going to make the audience actually watch that stuff -- because it's about as exciting as watching a particularly uninteresting shade of off-white paint dry. It's the same reason even shows where real-time is part of the gimmick like 24 didn't actually take the time to show Jack Bauer using the toilet or waiting at a red light.

 

I understand there's money to be made, and if that's working out for you, cool. But games are supposed to be fun, and that's not fun for me. Sure, I could spend two hours of my day managing my stock portfolio and probably have a higher balance in my bank account than I do now, but I could also spend that time watching a movie or hanging out with my kid or cooking a nice dinner, you know?

Uh, in 20 minutes you can make 80 million, and that's on the low end not being picky.

 

Do that once a week and you have plenty of cash.

 

Or, as @Sovera said, just convert and sell off the merit currency, vastly I ferior but still fast cash.

 

Making inf in this game is so easy by just playing, anyone can have an iOd build.

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Uh, in 20 minutes you can make 80 million, and that's on the low end not being picky.

 

Do that once a week and you have plenty of cash.

 

Or, as @Sovera said, just convert and sell off the merit currency, vastly I ferior but still fast cash.

 

Making inf in this game is so easy by just playing, anyone can have an iOd build.

I can spend 200 mill in 2 min when kitting out a new build.  After running out of stuff in my base i run to the market for the odds, ends, and maybe a purple set or ATO set etc.  

 

so, i solicit donations 

 

please email cash to @Snarky.  Thanks

 

 

[Without_Pause]

13 hours ago, tidge said:

 

This isn't applicable to low-level characters, but level 50 Recipes sell to vendors for an average of of 100K Inf. SO Enhancement drops vendor for an average of 12K Inf.

It is if they know what they are doing. 😉

[Mjolnerd]

4 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Uh, in 20 minutes you can make 80 million, and that's on the low end not being picky.

 

That's four million influence a minute, every minute. Almost a quarter billion an hour. Sorry, I don't buy it. Either you're overstating how much you're making, or exaggerating how often you see numbers like that, or both. I don't doubt that it's happened a few times, but I can't believe for a second that you're making so much, on such a consistent basis, that 4mil/min is "on the low end." What are you claiming is your average, then? Five million a minute? Ten million? Please.

 

I tried for a month or so, and frankly, I was making nowhere near that much. There was profit, absolutely, but at most I'd pull in about 20 million in 20 minutes, around twice what I make on average just running a farm in AE. And that was on the high end for me, sometimes I'd make significantly less. Unless I was doing something drastically different from what you are -- and I'm sure it was different but not to the tune of 400% or more -- I was never going to see numbers like what you're claiming.

 

Just once, I'd like someone to actually state how specifically they're pulling in these untold millions of inf that are "so easy" to make instead of just gesturing vaguely toward the market and saying "guides! There are guides everywhere!" But wait, you can't do that, can you? You've got some super-secret technique and/or niche and if even a single other person knew about it, your profits would bottom out to, what, four million a minute on the high end instead?

[GM Crumpet]

Farming I might make 20 million an hour. Playing I'll probably make around the same amount. Doing MSR and Hami will get plenty of merits and with Hami the chance of a really profitable drop. Or a really cheap drop. I've had drops that have fetched 20 million, other drops a few thousand. It still averages out at a decent average though. 

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, Mjolnerd said:

 

That's four million influence a minute, every minute. Almost a quarter billion an hour. Sorry, I don't buy it. Either you're overstating how much you're making, or exaggerating how often you see numbers like that, or both. I don't doubt that it's happened a few times, but I can't believe for a second that you're making so much, on such a consistent basis, that 4mil/min is "on the low end." What are you claiming is your average, then? Five million a minute? Ten million? Please.

 

I tried for a month or so, and frankly, I was making nowhere near that much. There was profit, absolutely, but at most I'd pull in about 20 million in 20 minutes, around twice what I make on average just running a farm in AE. And that was on the high end for me, sometimes I'd make significantly less. Unless I was doing something drastically different from what you are -- and I'm sure it was different but not to the tune of 400% or more -- I was never going to see numbers like what you're claiming.

 

Just once, I'd like someone to actually state how specifically they're pulling in these untold millions of inf that are "so easy" to make instead of just gesturing vaguely toward the market and saying "guides! There are guides everywhere!" But wait, you can't do that, can you? You've got some super-secret technique and/or niche and if even a single other person knew about it, your profits would bottom out to, what, four million a minute on the high end instead?

 

I don't have reliable numbers for you because I was half AFK during my last rampage of doing this, but I'll quote myself:

 

Quote

I did this with my latest iron man challenge (no IO or cash transfers) and in two hours of being semi AFK and half tabbed out of the game I went from 8 million and being half clad in generic IOs to being 100% covered in IO sets having bough five LotG, a full Preventive Medicine, three powers slotted with four Unbreakable Guards, a Kinetic Combat, full Synapse's Shock, a full ATO six slots and whatever else I may be forgetting, and after buying around 30 catalysts (around 1 mill each) to attune all of these I still had 80 million left even with all the crafting costs, converters bought and etc.

 

[Mjolnerd]

  

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

 

I don't have reliable numbers for you because I was half AFK during my last rampage of doing this, but I'll quote myself:

 

 

I mean... okay?

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about -- everybody is eager to tell anyone who will listen all about how much money they're making, and even more eager to brag about how easy it was for them ("semi AFK and half tabbed out of the game"), but nobody wants to talk about how they're actually doing it. It's like an MLB All-Star saying "it's only a 90 mph fastball, right over the plate. Just hit it, it's easy!"

 

Here, I'll quote myself too:

 

3 hours ago, Mjolnerd said:

I tried for a month or so, and frankly, I was making nowhere near that much. There was profit, absolutely, but at most I'd pull in about 20 million in 20 minutes, around twice what I make on average just running a farm in AE. And that was on the high end for me, sometimes I'd make significantly less. Unless I was doing something drastically different from what you are -- and I'm sure it was different but not to the tune of 400% or more -- I was never going to see numbers like what you're claiming.

 

Just once, I'd like someone to actually state how specifically they're pulling in these untold millions of inf that are "so easy" to make instead of just gesturing vaguely toward the market and saying "guides! There are guides everywhere!"

 

I've followed the guides. I even had someone very nicely explain to me all what all of the jargon that's used but never explained in the guides actually meant, and give me a few pointers to help me get started. I kept at it for several weeks. I saw moderate profits. Moderate. Nowhere close to what you're describing. I did everything I was "supposed" to do  and never saw these mythical 80-million-inf windfalls. Clearly "just follow the guides" is, at best, incomplete advice.

 

I'll ask one more time. Answer the question or don't.

 

How?

 

Not "how much"?

 

HOW?

Edited October 30, 2023 by Mjolnerd

[Yomo Kimyata]

20 minutes ago, Mjolnerd said:

HOW?

 

Try this:  

 

 

[Mjolnerd]

41 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

Try this:  

 

 

 

Tried it. As I've mentioned twice already, I've followed the guides. As I've also mentioned twice, moderate profits. The 20 million in 20 minutes I mentioned before? Congratulations, that was, like, half your doing! Thanks.

 

But since then I've had "80 million in 20 minutes at the low end" and "fully IOed plus an extra 80 million in two hours" quoted to me. And both parties made a specific point of mentioning how easy it was. Those numbers still sound grossly inflated to me, but nobody else seems to think so, so I guess they could be legit.

 

I've got 20 minutes right now -- what specific steps do I take to make 80 million inf today?

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Mjolnerd

[Yomo Kimyata]

Well, I just now bought about 50 level 26 Undermined Defense recipes from the /AH.  I could have got them cheaper if I put the bids on now and waited a day+ for other people to sell to me cheaper, but so be it.  I also put in bids for all the relevant salvage since I don't feel like chasing yellow right now.

 

Next time I log in on this character, I will craft them.  Convert by category for 2 converters each and I will have 50 Touch of Lady Grey.  I will convert each one of those by rare until I have something that I would consider slotting in one of my characters, which is a loose proxy for if something is valuable or not.  I think you should have a good idea of what the useful IOs are by now, but if not look at the last 5 trades are (hopefully it's not a bugged display!) and see if it consistently trades over 2mm. Put them on the /AH at a price a little higher than what you think the floor is based on the last 5.

 

The next time I log in after that, I expect to have cleared 100-250mm.

 

Total time will take me about 30 minutes.  Two minutes today buying.  Twenty-seven minutes tomorrow crafting, converting, and listing.  One minute the day after tomorrow to claim inf.

 

Can you do it all in one single 30-minute session?  Sure.  But then you are buying salvage at full offer price, and if you are selling at 5inf you are only going to be hitting the bids of bottom feeders, so your relative profit is going to be a small fraction so maybe 25-50mm.