I wish Elec attacks had a different side effect

[Galaxy Brain]

Link to original reddit thread:

 

I wrote this on mobile so I wanted to share here, the reddit link has a lot more detail!

 

In short, elec attacks have the secondary effect of end drain and a chance to return some endurance. In practice, the end drain is really not noticable vs NPCs outside of select powers that can drain from 100-0 reliably and then keep them there, where it becomes sort of OP. The endurance return when averaged out is also barely noticable in a world with auto stamina and iirc the effect when averaged is less than a training enhancement.

 

In modern media, elec is usually associated with stunning enemies in an "electrocuted" effect where they get tased for lack of a better visual (we cant show skeletons on every model haha), as well as chaining from target to target. Giving elec attacks these abilities may be both more thematic and fun, as well as more worthwhile as an actual effect than the current endurance manipulation. The powers that focus on the end manipulation would of course keep their perks (such as short circuit, power sink, etc).

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

[Coyote]

Given how some of the other sets have abilities where power effect depends on how previous powers affected the target (Beam Rifle, Rad Melee, Atomic Manipulation), it should be possible to have Electric stack up a charge on a target with some attacks, and then have that charge released with some "finishing" moves for a burst of AoE damage around the target and a chance to Stun the target.

[Rylas]

I would agree that as they stand, electric based sets don't really offer a great secondary effect. Instead of a different side effect, why not just make adjustments to the current side-effect.

 

One option would be tweaking the numbers for drain/endurance return and for the -recovery. I would agree 1 TO's worth of effective endurance reduction isn't really helpful. But if you were averaging 1 SO's worth I think that would be pretty substantial. Or being able to stop an AVs end recovery with enough constant attacks wouldn't be OP if you ask me.

 

Another option would be similar to what Coyote was suggesting. Have powers inside sets that increase how much end drain/return is done in follow up attacks. When enough charge is built up, have finisher attacks that drain/return a larger amount of endurance and floor recovery on the target. So for long drawn out boss/AV fights, the secondary effect really makes a difference, but for shorter fights you're mainly keeping your own endurance at higher efficiencies.

 

As long as we're not creating situations where electric sets basically have free endurance all the time, then I don't see it being OP to make some tweaks to the numbers.

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

I would agree that as they stand, electric based sets don't really offer a great secondary effect. Instead of a different side effect, why not just make adjustments to the current side-effect.

 

One option would be tweaking the numbers for drain/endurance return and for the -recovery. I would agree 1 TO's worth of effective endurance reduction isn't really helpful. But if you were averaging 1 SO's worth I think that would be pretty substantial. Or being able to stop an AVs end recovery with enough constant attacks wouldn't be OP if you ask me.

 

Another option would be similar to what Coyote was suggesting. Have powers inside sets that increase how much end drain/return is done in follow up attacks. When enough charge is built up, have finisher attacks that drain/return a larger amount of endurance and floor recovery on the target. So for long drawn out boss/AV fights, the secondary effect really makes a difference, but for shorter fights you're mainly keeping your own endurance at higher efficiencies.

 

As long as we're not creating situations where electric sets basically have free endurance all the time, then I don't see it being OP to make some tweaks to the numbers.

 

This is good, though again the end drain side is where it gets tricky. If you can manage to drain consistently then it gets a bit tricky.

 

I think the best solution may be to combine all these? For example, the basic ST attacks have chances to chain to a few targets for less damage. Tesla Cage could have a great endurance drain or return, zapp can have a solid stun chance, etc etc.

[_NOPE_]

Yeah, I do NOT want to see a different effect replace the endurance drain/recovery. I loves my abilities just as they are, TYVM. However, I'm not opposed to tweaking the numbers to give a larger buff. How about this.... make Short Circuit do LESS -REC, and MORE damage to compensate, and make ALL of the other Electrical powers do MORE -REC, -END to enemies and more +END to the user, but make the -REC effect itself have a shorter duration.

 

Right now, it's very binary. I'd rather see an active Blaster/Defender be able to get enemies down to little endurance QUICKER, but at the same time FORCE them to keep zapping them away to KEEP them down, so they don't get complacent. Let's tweak the numbers to reward active, constant zapping and let the player reap the beneifts of it, rather than just waiting for one power to recharge.

 

Honestly... I think we need to look overall at enemies themselves and how they USE endurance, to be honest... because I think enemies need to be recoded to use endurance like player characters do... and that's not happening... their attacks cost almost NO endurance. And that sucks.

[Galaxy Brain]

Yeah, I do NOT want to see a different effect replace the endurance drain/recovery. I loves my abilities just as they are, TYVM. However, I'm not opposed to tweaking the numbers to give a larger buff. How about this.... make Short Circuit do LESS -REC, and MORE damage to compensate, and make ALL of the other Electrical powers do MORE -REC, -END to enemies and more +END to the user, but make the -REC effect itself have a shorter duration.

 

Right now, it's very binary. I'd rather see an active Blaster/Defender be able to get enemies down to little endurance QUICKER, but at the same time FORCE them to keep zapping them away to KEEP them down, so they don't get complacent. Let's tweak the numbers to reward active, constant zapping and let the player reap the beneifts of it, rather than just waiting for one power to recharge.

 

Honestly... I think we need to look overall at enemies themselves and how they USE endurance, to be honest... because I think enemies need to be recoded to use endurance like player characters do... and that's not happening... their attacks cost almost NO endurance. And that sucks.

 

End manipulation needs to stay, I agree on that. It's a really fun form of crowd control but as you say yourself it is incredibly binary unless the way all NPC attacks and endurance usage is changed... which is a much greater ask.

 

Nerfing the current super-drain powers (across all elec sets, not just blast) and then buffing it on the normal attacks would probably be a net *nerf* to end draining as well due to not being able to drain quickly via the handful of strong draining abilities that do it in 1-2 shots. The ST attacks really do not contribute aside from Tesla Cage as it provides -Rec, and as its already utilitarian it makes sense to keep that as a sapping power.

 

The current suggestions would be more geared towards the powers that are more geared towards damage anyways to give them a flavorful secondary ability while still keeping the more sapp-y powers as is.

 

[Leogunner]

Reposting my reply from reddit:

 

I disagree. The END drain DOES have an affect prior to end-game. Just like us, foes' abilities cost endurance and they can drain their own endurance if they attack long enough. Coupled with something draining them and you can leave a boss with empty hands for the last quarter of its HP.

 

On the subject of the effect not being substantial or negligible, this is the case for most secondary effects at end-game. Beside the special few (like Sonic's -res), how often does the -ToHit of dark or the -Def of the sword sets play any role on a team with capped defense buffs?

 

 

 

 

That being said, I'm never against the prospect of suggesting changes.  I'm not sure about you guys, but my Elec stalker sometimes does drain bosses to deal with them if they are that bulky (not that much of a stretch considering Elec Melee isn't a particularly strong ST set) or there are more than one.  I noticed he got close to draining them completely at around 1/10 of their HP so I developed a strat: I used IOs to get him around 30ish% END mod in conjunction to standard acc, dmg and recharge (sacrificed END redux tho).  So jump in with offensive mode (he's /Bio), alpha strike, swap to defensive mode and peel off all their END.  It actually doesn't take that long and by 1/4 their HP left, they're dry.  I'm sure, by the time he gets to max (he's lvl 36 now), this strat will be defunct but again, that doesn't mean it's useless.

 

If I were making a suggestion, I'd give electric powers a "mana burn" quality in that, if the target is out of END and you hit them with an electric power, they get burning DoT.  I don't feel the effect is useless, just lack of incentive since no one seems to care about using the debuff to shut down foes.

[Auroxis]

My suggestion would be adding another Endurance Mod IO set, that gives damage as well as a nice proc benefit:

 

Energy Siphon

 

Set Type: Endurance Modification

Level Range: 21 to 50

 

Energy Siphon: Damage/EndMod

Energy Siphon: Damage/Recharge

Energy Siphon: Damage/Accuracy/Recharge

Energy Siphon: Accuracy/Recharge/EndMod

Energy Siphon: Damage/Endurance/Recharge/EndMod

Energy Siphon: Chance for Build Up (Unique)

 

Buff:

Accuracy: 42.4%

Damage: 89.93% (Pre-ED: 92.75%)

EnduranceDiscount: 18.55%

Endurance: 66.25%

RechargeTime: 85.71% (Pre-ED: 87.45%)

 

Set Bonus:

(2) 2.5% Recovery

(3) 7% Accuracy

(4) 3% Damage Buff

(5) 3.13% Defense (Energy/Negative), 1.56% Defense (Ranged)

(6) 7.5% Enhancement (Recharge)

 

 

 

[Rylas]

I disagree. The END drain DOES have an affect prior to end-game. Just like us, foes' abilities cost endurance and they can drain their own endurance if they attack long enough. Coupled with something draining them and you can leave a boss with empty hands for the last quarter of its HP.

 

On the subject of the effect not being substantial or negligible, this is the case for most secondary effects at end-game. Beside the special few (like Sonic's -res), how often does the -ToHit of dark or the -Def of the sword sets play any role on a team with capped defense buffs?

 

I'm gonna have to disagree on this one. -ToHit and -Def can definitely have more impact than -End or End Return. Having -ToHit from Dark Melee couples well with defense based sets. -Def compounds over just a couple of hits to make a target much easier to hit. If we're going to make special team buff circumstances the standard, then of course secondary effects can be overshadowed. You might as well ask how does any secondary effect play a role on a damage capped team?

 

But in solo play, -ToHit and -Def can do a lot for someone. -End and End Return don't appear to have significant impact when; 1) enemies powers cost nearly zero endurance, and 2) you only see about 1 TOs worth of end reduction with the amount of end you come away with (if OPs numbers are to be trusted). Currently, in solo play, -End doesn't provide as much survival or performance enhancement. It definitely could use a bit of boost.

 

I used IOs to get him around 30ish% END mod...

 

I'm not sure why people insist on bringing up IOs to show how set performance is balanced. Perhaps your perception of how well the -End secondary effect works is because you're using an IO build to base your opinion on. My experience with Electric power sets certainly doesn't reflect yours.

[Rylas]

My suggestion would be adding another Endurance Mod IO set, that gives damage as well as a nice proc benefit:

 

Energy Siphon

 

Set Type: Endurance Modification

Level Range: 21 to 50

 

Energy Siphon: Damage/EndMod

Energy Siphon: Damage/Recharge

Energy Siphon: Damage/Accuracy/Recharge

Energy Siphon: Accuracy/Recharge/EndMod

Energy Siphon: Damage/Endurance/Recharge/EndMod

Energy Siphon: Chance for Build Up (Unique)

 

Buff:

Accuracy: 42.4%

Damage: 89.93% (Pre-ED: 92.75%)

EnduranceDiscount: 18.55%

Endurance: 66.25%

RechargeTime: 85.71% (Pre-ED: 87.45%)

 

Set Bonus:

(2) 2.5% Recovery

(3) 7% Accuracy

(4) 3% Damage Buff

(5) 3.13% Defense (Energy/Negative), 1.56% Defense (Ranged)

(6) 7.5% Enhancement (Recharge)

 

+1 for some Damage/End Mod sets. I think having 2-3 of those would be great. But I wouldn't consider them a proper solution to actual game mechanic issues.

 

Maybe change the set name to Energy Bleed though. :)

[Elthenar]

I am not sure if it can be adjusted to matter. When I am on teams, most things that get rooted get dead very, very fast. If you could easily end drain an AV/GM and keep them drained, that could get OP equally fast.

 

IMO the best option is to buff the end recovery but in most groups someone will bring a power to fix end. Would be ok for solo work.

[Galaxy Brain]

Again, it's not that end drain is bad it's that it is clunky. The powers that drain end hard are really good because enemies without endurance cannot do anything, making it the ultimate soft control. However, unless you get them to 0 or keep them at 0 / a tiny sliver at most then they can still swing at you with essentially full effect. A slow or a tohit debuff will always be useful and can be stackable for immediate returns. Rech slow is comparable to end drain in the effect that it prevents additional attacks over time, but it still has an immediate effect that drain does not outside the full drain powers.

 

As you said, on a boss the fight ends up with them being drained near the end of the encounter via normal moves which while nice, is a bit late in the fight where they are like 2 attacks away from going down and have been attacking you otherwise unimpeded until nearly the end. At that point, a set with a DoT side effect would have probably defeated the boss for the same net effect...

 

What is different than slow and DoT, etc, is that there are powers that when used can absolutely floor endurance in a quick amount of time. Power Sink, Short Circuit, the sleep from Elec Control all come to mind where you can reliably sap quickly which changes the game. An IO set as Auroxis could go a long way too tho! If you slotted those and went from near the end -> halfway through a fight the boss is drained that would be a big difference, but that requires a bunch of slotting that would still be outclassed by certain elec powers that already exist.

 

Idk, it is a weird issue. On the one hand it is a cool and useful effect when it works, but there exist several powers that do it well enough to the point of trivializing the standard attacks. Elec has had cool themes that are not fully fleshed out besides this, so going into that on some of the basic attacks while keeping sapping powers in there would be fun!

 

(On the flipside, given the binary nature of elec attacks could just easily drain it may even be a little OP as each fight just becomes an easy win as the enemy cant ever fight back)

[Trickshooter]

Make Elec Blast attacks cause the same electrified Sleep effect that some of Elec Melee has!

 

I honestly don't know if that would improve anything, it's just something I always wished they did.

[Leogunner]

 

I'm gonna have to disagree on this one. -ToHit and -Def can definitely have more impact than -End or End Return. Having -ToHit from Dark Melee couples well with defense based sets.

 

Like I said, on teams with buffs capping defense, the -ToHit will be negligible if not pointless.

 

-Def compounds over just a couple of hits to make a target much easier to hit.

 

Again, on teams with buffs and/or slotting for optimal hit-rate, the -Def is only a factor for foes with +Def.  In situations where you'd need the -Def (like when mobs use tier9 defense moves), the piddly -Def of attack sets is resisted to the point of barely causing a change.

 

If we're going to make special team buff circumstances the standard, then of course secondary effects can be overshadowed. You might as well ask how does any secondary effect play a role on a damage capped team?

 

Perhaps you aren't understanding my position or post?

 

Most secondary effects are ignored in the face of end-game team buffs.  This isn't controversial.  It's just facts.

 

BUT that doesn't mean the effects are useless for the rest of the game.  This IS to include END Drain.  I even posted an anecdotal to go with it.

 

Just to completely clarify, your quoted response is actually re-enforcing my argument that END Drain isn't something so weak that it needs more buffs just because it's situational.

 

 

 

-End and End Return don't appear to have significant impact when; 1) enemies powers cost nearly zero endurance, and 2) you only see about 1 TOs worth of end reduction with the amount of end you come away with (if OPs numbers are to be trusted). Currently, in solo play, -End doesn't provide as much survival or performance enhancement. It definitely could use a bit of boost.

 

Going to need some proof there, champ.

 

Mobs' powers cost endurance.  They can drain their own endurance over time.  I've seen it countless times on brutes where, after finally defeating them, they go down with about half a bar left and that's on a set with no END debuffs whatsoever.  Secondly, the recovery portion of the effect is obviously balanced because it both drains the foe and replenishes the user.  Effects like that don't get balanced to have a substantial affect both ways.

 

 

I used IOs to get him around 30ish% END mod...

 

I'm not sure why people insist on bringing up IOs to show how set performance is balanced. Perhaps your perception of how well the -End secondary effect works is because you're using an IO build to base your opinion on. My experience with Electric power sets certainly doesn't reflect yours.

 

I'm not sure why people instantly retreat to "things aren't balanced around IOs" stance the moment someone mentions them.  The only reason I brought up IOs is to describe the build's goals, that is, I'm able to diversify the slotting of my electric skills to include END Mod to capitalize off the secondary effects sometimes.  It's not to describe how the set is balanced.

 

And if your experience doesn't reflect mine, why not describe your experience rather than go off the words of someone else?  Or do you not have your own thoughts and have to bandwagon off of someone elses'?

[Leogunner]

Again, it's not that end drain is bad it's that it is clunky. The powers that drain end hard are really good because enemies without endurance cannot do anything, making it the ultimate soft control. However, unless you get them to 0 or keep them at 0 / a tiny sliver at most then they can still swing at you with essentially full effect. A slow or a tohit debuff will always be useful and can be stackable for immediate returns. Rech slow is comparable to end drain in the effect that it prevents additional attacks over time, but it still has an immediate effect that drain does not outside the full drain powers.

 

As you said, on a boss the fight ends up with them being drained near the end of the encounter via normal moves which while nice, is a bit late in the fight where they are like 2 attacks away from going down and have been attacking you otherwise unimpeded until nearly the end. At that point, a set with a DoT side effect would have probably defeated the boss for the same net effect...

 

I'd say this is just the nature of CoX powerset combos.  Sometimes you get more synergy than others and this also plays out in teams.  The whole "boss being drained near the end of the encounter" likely coincides with the part of your post that says it's "the ultimate soft control".  You have to balance it some way and being situational is kind of another aspect of balance here.  Like, sometimes knockback is amazing and other times, it is less than ideal...or that diminsion shift might really help out the team or fuck everything up royally.

 

On a team with 2 or more drainers, I think they are rewarded quite a bit.  To get the same results solo, it's going to require some aspect of specialization.

 

But all this could just be a result of power creep.  Looking at my Beam/Time blaster, he not only has the crazy -regen that allows him to duo GMs with relative ease, but he also has Disintegration which is both a bonus and a crutch.  I'd like a lot of the old sets to have some more things added or improved but I also don't want things to creep too far forward just because there are outliers that overperform.  I don't think giving Electric attacks an added advantage in situations on teams where mass END drain is a possibility because it's still overall situational.

 

 

[Chaos Ex Machina]

Electric blast can chain while enemy not drained

 

Not binary now

 

DONE

[Galaxy Brain]

In your defense, the IO bit was based on just raw IO enhancement and not +Bonuses, much like slotting SOs for end mod.

 

Also now that I am home I can run more accurate data (going off the in game numbers, AT does not seem to matter for the end values):

 

Charged Bolts:

Costs 5.20 end to use, 30% chance to return 2.60 end, avg cost ~4.42 = ~15% end reduc

Drains 7% of the end bar of its target, applies 100% rec debuff for 2 sec. 4 sec rech and 1s activation time.

 

Lightning Bolt:

Costs 8.53 end to use, 30% chance to return 4.26 end, avg cost ~7.25 = ~15% end reduc

Drains 10% of the end bar of its target, applies 100% rec debuff for 4 sec. 8 sec rech and 1.67s activation time.

 

Looking at Charged Brawl, Havok Punch, etc, they all have similar values of around a 15% discount and the 7%/10% drain and short lived -recovery. The discount is a bit better, but only on certain powers in the elec sets. For the drain, powers like Short Circuit / Power Sink have a substantial end drain (35% base on SC) and it along with Tesla Cage also have lengthy -Rec at 10+ sec. Elec Control similarly has powers like Conductive Aura that can easily drain 20%+ a sec that just blow the attacks away for drain. Usually only two such powers is all it takes to drain effectively, and watching NPC blue bars tonight I see that many attacks cost 5 end or less, and their recovery is pretty quick to be stopped effectively by 2~4 sec debuffs. Without recovery, its gonna take like 10 such attacks to drain a target which by that point it should be dead or just about dead, making the side effect dubious if the next hit will just kill them anyways.

 

Given the nature of end drain, keeping it to the "big drain" powers that are more unique to elec seems fitting. Branching to, well, chain/branching hits on the ST attacks is also thematic alongside the end discount/return for more noticable DPS effects.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Zep]

I am never against thinking of new ideas and ways of doing things.

 

I do disagree the end drain is pointless, having played and again am playing several electric characters, Storm/Elec Defender, Elec/Elec Dominator, Elec/Elec Stalker, etc the drain may not substantially and consistently affects mobs - no more so then the defuff from a Peach Bringer, Warshade or most other damage types, it does make a big difference for the attacker. All those chances to get end back add up and characters heavy into electric last much longer in a fight. With a couple choice end mods (for the powers that take them) you can do without Stamina and the costly IO for procing +end.

[kelly Rocket]

I'd agree with changing Elec Blast to disorient, or something like that. Elec Control on the other hand is actually good at sapping, far better than Elec Blast, and it works quite well as is.

[Sunsette]

The End Drain is getting heavily underestimated here. I have literally zero attacks on my character that drain end other than from my quite spammable APP AoE -- and the immediate result I noticed solo after I switched to it from a nearly identical Fire APP was that I survived better. The attack takes off 10% (13% with my alpha) off of everyone's end about every 5 seconds. It definitely adds up when things aren't instantly dying.

[Solarverse]

Yeah, I do NOT want to see a different effect replace the endurance drain/recovery. I loves my abilities just as they are, TYVM. However, I'm not opposed to tweaking the numbers to give a larger buff. How about this.... make Short Circuit do LESS -REC, and MORE damage to compensate, and make ALL of the other Electrical powers do MORE -REC, -END to enemies and more +END to the user, but make the -REC effect itself have a shorter duration.

 

Right now, it's very binary. I'd rather see an active Blaster/Defender be able to get enemies down to little endurance QUICKER, but at the same time FORCE them to keep zapping them away to KEEP them down, so they don't get complacent. Let's tweak the numbers to reward active, constant zapping and let the player reap the beneifts of it, rather than just waiting for one power to recharge.

 

Honestly... I think we need to look overall at enemies themselves and how they USE endurance, to be honest... because I think enemies need to be recoded to use endurance like player characters do... and that's not happening... their attacks cost almost NO endurance. And that sucks.

 

Honestly, I always felt like if you played Elec of any kind, that you should never again have any Endurance issues. For me, if they simply increased the amount of Endurance drained from enemies and increased the amount of Endurance returned to you, I would be tickled pink.

[Galaxy Brain]

Further suggestions:

 

1) make the recovery debuffs consistently 7-8 sec across all powers like with other debuff side effects, no more 2-10 sec weirdness

 

2) on hit only, just have a 25% endurance return. This is 10% more on average,  technically less per miss which we all do

 

3) end drain if done easily could be tricky, and thematically it would be a ton of fun to have st attacks have a chance to chain. Possibly the crappy drain stats could be warranted if they had the chance to jump to 1-2 targets where both get effected,  and both have that 30% chance to recover endurance?

 

Say we keep everything the same but add that. You can drain 2-3 targets for a bit of CC, as well as return more endurance than you spent if you hit 3 at once and all the chances align!

 

4) The sleep effect is weird but nice, and now I remember why it didn't come up much (sleep gets interrupted by you continuing to attack). Having a proper stun chance would be nice here or there like with Taser.