Focused Feedback: High-Level Council Revamp

[sbloyd]

Shower thought time: maybe an intermediate difficulty step where the self-res is instead a self-Extracted Essence summon? (To represent the Nictus fragment tearing free.)

[SwitchFade]

9 hours ago, ShinMagmus said:

This actually incentivizes me to fight them more.  I have a question though: how much does this change the sub-group of Dimensional/Rocket Council who spawn on some PI story arc missions and who are different from the "regular" Council who spawn on PI Radio missions?

 

Spawnsets are something I genuinely don't really understand and never looked into, except noting that random grey-conning enemies sometimes appear in otherwise even-conning enemy groups because of spawnset issues.

This is a really good point, I have in unai kemen arc, the council map with 20 portals and rocket council, a chill map I only solo for some fun and relaxation.

 

If these guys change, all my toons that save this map for solo smash fun will have a huge impact on their play.

 

Mind you, I do not farm, nor do I PL, I play every toon up on content after planning the build in mods, both teams and solo. In fact, once I 50, I like to exempt, and you can routinely find me in LFG broad asking to join low y teams. Back on topic though ...

 

I use this map on many toons for a good measure of SO build strength and how IO builds compare.

 

I'd really like to know if this group will change.

 

 

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, sbloyd said:

Shower thought time: maybe an intermediate difficulty step where the self-res is instead a self-Extracted Essence summon? (To represent the Nictus fragment tearing free.)

This is a really great idea, could they have say, a 50/50 chance of rez/nictus fragment spawn? That would cut the dreary in half, and give even more flavor to the spawn kit at least.

 

What an interesting idea, sbloyd!

[CFIndustries]

On 1/29/2024 at 7:37 PM, StarkWhite said:

The base identity of the Council, such as it is, is an all over the place "vampires, werewolves, robots, supersoldiers, aliens, explosions."

That has not changed.

 

I thought the "base identity" was "Nazi stooges and mustache twirlers who have all the same over-the-top plans as cartoon villains, are pushovers relative to other villain factions, and only attract so many goons because they have a rockin' dental plan"?

[ViridianDev]

11 hours ago, ShinMagmus said:

This actually incentivizes me to fight them more.  I have a question though: how much does this change the sub-group of Dimensional/Rocket Council who spawn on some PI story arc missions and who are different from the "regular" Council who spawn on PI Radio missions?

 

Council Empire have their own separate powers defined and are treated as a separate faction, so they're not a part of these changes. Axis America did get costume updates to separate their identity from Council Empire, but likewise have had zero powers changes.

[SwitchFade]

23 hours ago, ViridianDev said:

 

Council Empire have their own separate powers defined and are treated as a separate faction, so they're not a part of these changes. Axis America did get costume updates to separate their identity from Council Empire, but likewise have had zero powers changes.

Thanks, this is good to hear.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I've now spent a handful of +4/x8 lvl 50 paper missions on both the new Council and the new CoT with two of my better built incarnates, and I'll cut and paste this in both subforums.  Overall, change is good!

 

Council are a bit tougher, harder to clear out, slower clear speeds.  They don't seem to change my strategy at all, but do make the experience a bit more challenging.

 

CoT are a different animal.  On the one hand, I didn't notice getting my to hit debuffed down to single digits which happens currently when you get a handful of Death Mages stacking on you.  On the other hand, I got my clock cleaned repeatedly out of nowhere.  Guess I will have to do my research on which new enemies are the "kill first" and treat them like the DA Banished Pantheon (set targetname macro to "sorrow").

 

Two overall points:

 

I tend to avoid CoT missions in general, both paper/radio and story arcs, because of cave maps and especially Oregano maps.  This gives me (and others) additional incentive to avoid this missions.  I'm not complaining about a higher difficulty gradient, not at all.  But it's a very big shift for an enemy group that was already avoided.

 

I think that the devs should be cognizant that adding challenge at 36+ or 41+ really disproportionally affects sub-50 characters and encourages players to jump up to 50 asap.  We really saw this with the Crey revamp.  I'd consider shifting some of the challenge that would apply to sub-50 to 50+ content.  My two cents.

[UltraAlt]

On 2/5/2024 at 3:34 PM, CFIndustries said:

 

I thought the "base identity" was "Nazi stooges and mustache twirlers who have all the same over-the-top plans as cartoon villains, are pushovers relative to other villain factions, and only attract so many goons because they have a rockin' dental plan"?

 

[golstat2003]

On 2/9/2024 at 11:57 AM, Yomo Kimyata said:

I've now spent a handful of +4/x8 lvl 50 paper missions on both the new Council and the new CoT with two of my better built incarnates, and I'll cut and paste this in both subforums.  Overall, change is good!

 

Council are a bit tougher, harder to clear out, slower clear speeds.  They don't seem to change my strategy at all, but do make the experience a bit more challenging.

 

CoT are a different animal.  On the one hand, I didn't notice getting my to hit debuffed down to single digits which happens currently when you get a handful of Death Mages stacking on you.  On the other hand, I got my clock cleaned repeatedly out of nowhere.  Guess I will have to do my research on which new enemies are the "kill first" and treat them like the DA Banished Pantheon (set targetname macro to "sorrow").

 

Two overall points:

 

I tend to avoid CoT missions in general, both paper/radio and story arcs, because of cave maps and especially Oregano maps.  This gives me (and others) additional incentive to avoid this missions.  I'm not complaining about a higher difficulty gradient, not at all.  But it's a very big shift for an enemy group that was already avoided.

 

I think that the devs should be cognizant that adding challenge at 36+ or 41+ really disproportionally affects sub-50 characters and encourages players to jump up to 50 asap.  We really saw this with the Crey revamp.  I'd consider shifting some of the challenge that would apply to sub-50 to 50+ content.  My two cents.

 

 

The maps that come with CoT are the reason I will continue to avoid them for all time. I can never guarantee that it won't be an annoying cave when  they come up. Remove the linkage to cave maps to them and I'd be less likely to avoid them when leading teams. Other than that, this revamp make no difference to me.

[KaizenSoze]

45 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

 

The maps that come with CoT are the reason I will continue to avoid them for all time. I can never guarantee that it won't be an annoying cave when  they come up. Remove the linkage to cave maps to them and I'd be less likely to avoid them when leading teams. Other than that, this revamp make no difference to me.

Honestly, it's not hard to memorize the cave locations in PI. There are 3-4 around the Portal Corp and one off the SW end of the island.

[tricon]

Tested them with a lvl 50 full IO incarnate Radation/Atomic/Cold Blaster at +4/x8   +45% S/L def build with Melee Core and Rune for mez/res in blapper mode

 

Found them more annoying than before. Quite doable but without Hibernate the whole thing would have been painful. Needed it, to reset the fight a few times because I could not burn them down fast enough and bosses that rez and heal to full in the blink of an eye are nice. Got once killed in the mission through the animation of Hibernate because I could not get the drop on a group.

 

None of them would be a issue for my melee chars. 

 

2nd test with a anohter Blaster at lvl 50 vs +4/x8 council. This time a Psychic/Ninja/Mu without Hibernate but he got Smoke Flash (placate) to reset fights -same resist/def

 

Died one time, to see what happens when I get the alpha from the mobs off, not a good idea. I nuked the enemy group down and then focus on the bosses. Used placate to reset the fights when the turn into werewolfs or heal to full. Interesting fights, really cool. Died one time more with a enemy group that was to far spread out. Everything is possible but I think I will respec  out of Scramble Minds and back in Blinding power. 

 

 

Overall the fights are IMO now a lot better. The 2nd Blaster got less problems vs them, then the first one, but it could also be that I'm now more attuned to the fights.

Edited February 11 by tricon

[CFIndustries]

10 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

 

Pretty much. 😄

[Monos King]

What if normal Requiem got some of these changes. In fact, what if he got all of them, including the ability to revive and turn into a wolf?

I think that's a great idea, we should do that idea.

[Maris]

On a vaguely similar note, perhaps for a future update - Since Cor Leonis appear less until Level 30 anyways, with the change of the level range for Vortex troops, maybe include some passive resistance/HP buffs for them, and/or have them tend to spawn with the heavier weapons in the 20-29 range? I've always thought that Ubermenschen/Cor Leonis could use some ability/stat changes to reflect their super soldier status. 

Also, perhaps similar adjustments insofar as level range of Raserei and extra level 40-50 abiities for 5th Column?

[ivanhedgehog]

why would you do this at lower levels? there are plenty of harder enemy groups, go fight them if you want that. Leave something for players using so's. Dont change the whole game just to suit the moar harder folks.

[ParagonKid]

11 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

 Dont change the whole game just to suit the moar harder folks.

 

Eh. That's not how it works. Almost nobody asked for the changes, the majority of players will not like these changes, but most of them will quietly eat the stink sandwich or go elsewhere. That's how it goes every update that has bad changes that they're adamant about pushing out because it suits them.

[Monos King]

This seems like a good time to pitch this again. Can all the new and old Nictus people be flagged to take the extra damage from the Void Hunter Rifle Temporary Power?

[Maris]

1 hour ago, ivanhedgehog said:

why would you do this at lower levels? there are plenty of harder enemy groups, go fight them if you want that. Leave something for players using so's. Dont change the whole game just to suit the moar harder folks.

it's not about arbitrary challenge it's about giving enemies personality/distinguishing features and making them more interesting.

 

[Maris]

i'm not like "ooooh i want them to be HARDCORE" 

enemies doing distinguishing things that encourage target selection, particular tactics, and approaches is called -basic game design-. 

 

[ivanhedgehog]

2 minutes ago, Maris said:

it's not about arbitrary challenge it's about giving enemies personality/distinguishing features and making them more interesting.

 

council has plenty of identity. If anything, this change is homogenizing them with freaks etc. this is all about eliminating anothers playstyle.

[Maris]

Suit yourself, I guess? I think it makes them funner and more interesting to fight, they were really underpowered compared to basically every other group in that level range, at most I think you can argue the change brings them in line with that, it's not like you're having 50+ Banished Pantheon forced on you, there's no significant -res/-def/-acc, just some enemies that have to be locked down/dealt with accordingly when they transform or selfrez.

I don't think having X enemy group be about as powerful as every other enemy group in Y level range is making the game overly "hardcore", unless you're going to argue that all the existing content since 2012 with the exception of the Council and certain Portal Corp groups within that level range already was too "hardcore."

You're right, though, I -do- think players should absolutely be forced to play at a level where they know how to handle the majority of enemy groups that have existed within their level range for literally more than a decade (ie Crey, Nemesis, Malta, Longbow, Arachnos, the Carnival of Shadows, etc.) Groups which existed in game all well before IOs were even a thing, let alone incarnate abilities.

If this is a significant concern to you, provide proof to the devs that the Council tweaks make them more difficult/out of line with the challenge other level 40-50 enemy groups give groups.

Edited February 17 by Maris

[ParagonKid]

The Council didn't need "flavor" mechanics.

 

The Council was vanilla.

The Council was ordering chicken strips, which is is something that pretty much every restaurant offers as a safe choice.

 

People overwhelmingly PREFERRED the Council for this reason.

 

But for someone on the development team, this was untenable, I guess.

 

And, again, nobody should have to provide proof and make an airtight case for a change to NOT go through. The default action shouldn't be the developers changing things after decades that don't need changing. There is no 'qui tacet consentire videtur' .  The onus should be on the developer putting forward the change for successfully justify it. That is how good designers operate, as opposed to people just playing in a sandbox doing whatevert they want to.

[Sovera]

12 minutes ago, ParagonKid said:

The Council didn't need "flavor" mechanics.

 

The Council was vanilla.

The Council was ordering chicken strips, which is is something that pretty much every restaurant offers as a safe choice.

 

People overwhelmingly PREFERRED the Council for this reason.

 

But for someone on the development team, this was untenable, I guess.

 

And, again, nobody should have to provide proof and make an airtight case for a change to NOT go through. The default action shouldn't be the developers changing things after decades that don't need changing. There is no 'qui tacet consentire videtur' .  The onus should be on the developer putting forward the change for successfully justify it. That is how good designers operate, as opposed to people just playing in a sandbox doing whatevert they want to.

 

But they already did. Conveniently it was ignored.

 

People also overwhelmingly prefer the path of least resistance. Check how many use double XP to how many do not. Give them sextuple XP and see how many would refuse to take it. Give them a button to be insta level 50 and see how many would not take it. It'ss not a valid take for unchanging status quo.

[ParagonKid]

40 minutes ago, Sovera said:

But they already did. Conveniently it was ignored.

 

Which is only fair given how they're treating the negative feedback to this unasked for and unwanted change.

[kelika2]

What happened to that -50% damage mechanic to pets when the things self rezzed?  Was going to crowdsource other auto-hit powers to also do 50% reduced damage to pets like Freak Stunners and other things