Focused Feedback: Role Diversity Bonus

[Ghost]

I like how most on here think when this goes live, every team leader will suddenly demand the correct team makeup.

We already have a very select few that require 50s to run low level TFs (it’s a thing and I can supply the Global if you like)

We already have some me that only allow 50s on lvl35+ TFs

We already have some that demand we have a certain incarnate power to run hard-mode content.

 

Guess what?  It’s not affecting how any of you play it if you find/join teams.

Most likely these are the same leaders that will require the new team composition - so what?  They do that already.

 

Finally, just because the majority in here like/dislike something actually means nothing.  We are the very vocal minority when it comes to this games player base.

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

While I always encourage testing, I don't think that this particular wrinkle can be properly tested until it's live with hundreds and perhaps thousands of teams being formed. 

You don't need to test the proposition that "human beings will behave in the future as they have behaved in the past".  Nor is asserting that truism "speculation".

And if you don't think adding a reward alter distort gameplay...  I invite you to run a few DFBs and observe what happens in the fight against the Vahzilok, where only a badge (as opposed to a prize worth millions of Inf) is at stake.  I invite you to keep an eye on the LFG channel and observe the ebb and flow of what task forces predominate over a given week - and how that tracks closely with that week's WST.  (And for many Task Forces, the reward for Role Diversity is in the same cash equivalent range as the WST rewards.)

And if you were here when the base teleport macro or farming were nerfed...  Then you cannot in good conscience claim that removing this reward (if it goes live and has undesirable consequences) will not cause deep divisions among the community.  We've been there and seen that.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Marbing said:

Fear is a powerful motivator. I am on the side of let it roll and see what happens. It can always be adjusted later. The bonus isn’t huge, and it’s one prismatic per day… if it’s taken away I don’t think people will miss it.

But it's not just one Prismatic per day.

 

It's (1 Prismatic/day) x 1,000 players x 1,000 days = an extra 1,000,000 Prismatics in play after less than 3 years. And that's exactly the argument people will make if you try to take it away from them.

 

What's 1,000,000 Prismatics x 3,000,000 Inf? That's what they cost on the market currently. That's a lot of Inf changing hands. It will have an effect on the economy. And none of you know what that effect will be.

 

Finally, if it's such a tiny amount that it doesn't really matter, then why are people trying so hard to make sure that this feature makes it into the game?

[Marbing]

2 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

I invite you to run a few DFBs and observe what happens in the fight against the Vahzilok, where only a badge (as opposed to a prize worth millions of Inf) is at stake.

Hello Doc!
I have run thousands (maybe not thousands idk but it feels like it and may not actually be an exaggeration) of DFBs and literally can count on one hand the number of times this missed badge caused anything more than an “oh well we will get it next time”. I suspect it will be the same for this bonus as well. As far as WSF that isn’t the same as this because you are getting double the reward for completing a SF/TF than you normally would which is often a much bigger reward than 1 prismatic. You see this more when the WSF is something that normally nets 30+ (which becomes 60+ when doubled) merits than you do with the lower ones. While that often translates to the same people speed running those TFs over and over on that week, it doesn’t eliminate the still vast amount of teams doing other content, because they don’t care about the extra reward…. 
 

Also the farming “nerf” is a bit apples to oranges, and look at all the long term effects it caused once people realized it wasn’t as big a deal as they initially feared…. People still farm… a lot, and people still ask to be farmed… a lot.

 

I get the fear, I do. I just don’t agree it will be that bad. 

 

2 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

It's (1 Prismatic/day) x 1,000 players x 1,000 days = an extra 1,000,000 Prismatics in play after less than 3 years. And that's exactly the argument people will make if you try to take it away from them.

Hey PF!
Been a minute, hope you’re well. 
To be clear on your math here: 1000 players over 1000 days would be 1,000,000 extra prismatic over a 3ish year time span? Which translates to 3,000,000,000,000 extra inf (at the current rate) in the economy over that 3 year span? Which again translates to about 1 Billion extra influence per player per year if everyone sold all of them. This doesn’t include players using them… Keep in mind supply and demand, with more prismatic in the market the cost will go down overall and then likely spike with every new prismatic content release before settling again. I suspect over time these will go down quite significantly. BUT your argument isn’t without merit, something to think on.

Edited January 23 by Marbing

[SeraphimKensai]

7 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

But it's not just one Prismatic per day.

 

It's (1 Prismatic/day) x 1,000 players x 1,000 days = an extra 1,000,000 Prismatics in play after less than 3 years. And that's exactly the argument people will make if you try to take it away from them.

 

What's 1,000,000 Prismatics x 3,000,000 Inf? That's what they cost on the market currently. That's a lot of Inf changing hands. It will have an effect on the economy. And none of you know what that effect will be.

 

Finally, if it's such a tiny amount that it doesn't really matter, then why are people trying so hard to make sure that this feature makes it into the game?

Yes there will be prismatic aethers getting unloaded onto the market. Also this will help players gain these aethers to unlock cosmetics for their characters.

 

I think in any free market economy, we look at the concept of supply vs. demand. The cost of these fluctuates in my experience between 3-4 mil per aether typically.

 

We don't know what kind of demand these will have by newer players. Realistically I don't think there will be too much heightened demand, but as the supply increases and the price drops, more players are likely to buy higher tier cosmetic rewards and this reset the available stock.

 

I don't for see the proposed change causing a drastic effect on the price of prismatic aethers. That said I don't have a doctorate in economics either.

[The Chairman]

4 minutes ago, Marbing said:

I have run thousands (maybe not thousands idk but it feels like it and may not actually be an exaggeration) of DFBs and literally can count on one hand the number of times this missed badge caused anything more than an “oh well we will get it next time”. I suspect it will be the same for this bonus as well.

 

I haven't run thousands of DFBs, but I do run it four times on each new character, and I have never actually seen anyone lose it over not getting this badge. The reaction has always been a variation on “oh well we will get it next time”.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 minute ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I don't for see the proposed change causing a drastic effect on the price of prismatic aethers. That said I don't have a doctorate in economics either.

You don't need a doctorate in economics to see that increased supply lowers the price. This, along with the fact that new players won't even know they can sell PAs, defeats Cobalt's stated purpose of getting more Inf in the hands of new players.

[SeraphimKensai]

1 minute ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

You don't need a doctorate in economics to see that increased supply lowers the price. This, along with the fact that new players won't even know they can sell PAs, defeats Cobalt's stated purpose of getting more Inf in the hands of new players.

How long though would a player take to realize they can be traded? Especially as they run around and see people in mini mode and ask how the hell they got their character so small?

 

I think that someone actively playing will pick up what can and can't be traded within a reasonable timeframe. 

 

That said I don't think farming these and selling them is going to necessarily make someone rich, but it's another asset on the market to leverage.

[PeregrineFalcon]

4 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I think that someone actively playing will pick up what can and can't be traded within a reasonable timeframe.

You think so?

 

There's two active threads on the forums right now where people have been asking if Enhancement Diversification is still a thing. Do you think 18 years is a reasonable timeframe to figure something out?

 

I saw a posts a week or two ago where someone who has played for years said that they didn't know that they could mail Reward Merits to their other characters. I think it's safe to say that after years of gameplay they're no longer new players.

[UltraAlt]

4 hours ago, Uun said:

My thought was that controllers, corruptors or brutes could fill more than one role, much the way that VEATs do. Alternatively, the player or team lead could select which of two roles those ATs were filling for purpose of the bonus. 

 

It looks like it really comes down to the multi-bonus for ETAs and VETAs.

 

I don't know how it would be handled, but I think the calculation should be for the ETA/VETA filling one (1) role that is missing like a wild card.

 

Part of the reason that I'm saying this is that a duo Warshade and Arachnos Soldier can run a task force with just the 2 of them and get the reward. And I don't think that is the intent behind this idea.

If it can't be programmed to handle them as a wild card, then they should be designated to single role.

 

 

Edited January 23 by UltraAlt

[Cyclone Jack]

4 hours ago, Reiska said:

Obviously, that's no longer really the case on Homecoming, since most players run with double XP from the P2W vendor and thus are gaining 0 influence from defeats.  I still find that if I run story arcs or TFs, cash in the merits for converters or unslotters (whichever happens to be selling better that day), I can sustain a character on their own earnings, but it takes more seed money to get them going than it used to; I typically seed my alts with at least 5 million now.

 

All this is absolutely a problem.  I *do* agree with the decision to remove TOs (the values on them were so negligible that they were never actually worth buying), and I'm skeptical that even DOs are worthwhile to have in the game, but I'm not sure reducing a major influence sink (which enhancements are) is healthy.  I'm also not sure increasing the influence flow (by reducing the Inf* penalties on XP boosters) again is a good idea either, although the thought of tweaking the penalties there did cross my mind (my thought was reducing the inf* penalties by 25%, multiplicative, so instead of -25%/-50%/-100% you'd have -18.75%/-37.5%/-75% for 1.25x/1.5x/2x XP).

As far as 2XP from P2W, I'm going to guess that new players probably won't know that's a thing, at least for a little while, unless someone tells them or they see some people standing around the vendor and then they take the time to look through everything.  And if they do go 2XP on their 1st character, then they'll be in for a rude awakening eventually (reminding me of the 1st appearance of the Winter Lords in which everyone PLed like crazy, but then had no Inf to slot their characters 🤣).

 

(On an aside, I have an SG specifically so I have access to TOs in the early game 😄)

 

The problem with SOing a character at 20 or 25 or whatever, and then keeping them SOed throughout the leveling process boils down to Inf.  There is absolutely no way a new player will be able to keep up with that, and the Homecoming devs are aware of that (thus this feature).  And you are correct, we don't want to add more Inf to the game; really the opposite needs to happen by adding more Inf sinks, but at the higher levels, IMO.  That's why I suggested cutting the costs of low-level DOs and SOs.  No extra Inf is being added to the game (the same amount drops), and that extra Inf saved is going directly back to the Vendors for more DOs and SOs.  Being able to fully DO a character around the L10-15 range and then fully SO in the L25-30 range would be a huge boon to the new player experience.  And at the same time, it would have 0 impact on veterans who seed their new characters millions of Inf and then IO out at L22.

 

Also, apologies to the GMs if this is too off-topic, but Cobalt's explanation sort of went into the SO and Inf side of things, so I feel this is still touching on that.

[Gobbledigook]

Maybe just blank out 2x xp until they have a 50 on the account. They can then use it on any alts after that.

 

Still easier to level than in the old days.

[Jaxman100]

I like the idea of an added bonus for team diversity, especially for low level alts/new players.

 

But I don't think it should be anything that would seem to be farmable.  So maybe a once every 18 hour reward or a 30% chance at TF completion to get the reward. 

As far as how the team diversity is figured out, it does seem a bit counterintuitive for how teams form.   Instead of filling 5 roles, add role value for each AT, maybe VEATs and Khelds count as 2, Corruptors, Controllers, Dominators, Defenders, MMs, maybe Brutes count for 1.5 and Tanks, Scrappers, Stalkers, Blasters count as 1.  Group Defenders and Corruptors to not stack for the count, and Controllers with Dominators.  If the count is 5 or greater chance for Aether to drop, maybe increase chance is the 'count' grows higher. 

[Ice Ember]

On 1/20/2024 at 4:33 PM, skoryy said:

 

And if it gets more controllers and defenders out there, all the better!

My favorite support character is a Time/Electric defender. Three holds and power boosted Farsight... 

 

But I have a bunch of different support characters. 

[Paradox Fate]

9 hours ago, Cyclone Jack said:

As far as 2XP from P2W, I'm going to guess that new players probably won't know that's a thing, at least for a little while, unless someone tells them or they see some people standing around the vendor and then they take the time to look through everything.  And if they do go 2XP on their 1st character, then they'll be in for a rude awakening eventually (reminding me of the 1st appearance of the Winter Lords in which everyone PLed like crazy, but then had no Inf to slot their characters 🤣).

 

(On an aside, I have an SG specifically so I have access to TOs in the early game 😄)

 

The problem with SOing a character at 20 or 25 or whatever, and then keeping them SOed throughout the leveling process boils down to Inf.  There is absolutely no way a new player will be able to keep up with that, and the Homecoming devs are aware of that (thus this feature).  And you are correct, we don't want to add more Inf to the game; really the opposite needs to happen by adding more Inf sinks, but at the higher levels, IMO.  That's why I suggested cutting the costs of low-level DOs and SOs.  No extra Inf is being added to the game (the same amount drops), and that extra Inf saved is going directly back to the Vendors for more DOs and SOs.  Being able to fully DO a character around the L10-15 range and then fully SO in the L25-30 range would be a huge boon to the new player experience.  And at the same time, it would have 0 impact on veterans who seed their new characters millions of Inf and then IO out at L22.

 

Also, apologies to the GMs if this is too off-topic, but Cobalt's explanation sort of went into the SO and Inf side of things, so I feel this is still touching on that.

 

I think a good idea would be adjusting the SO/DO prices up until about level 25, and then have a popup show up at level 22 telling players that they have been invited for a learning course in IO's at Steel Canyon/Cap Au Diable. There are already missions in universities that give players a rundown of how to craft them, along with a free recipe and materials AND a badge.

 

One also could add a Auction House tutorial in there, since both mentioned universities are in throwing distance of Auction Houses/Black Markets, so it would tie neatly into that too.

 

We just need to make the players be smarter with their given resources, not just throw more of it into their face when they don't have a clue what to do with them.

[macskull]

16 hours ago, Cyclone Jack said:

Second, outside of a tiny amount of end-game content, nothing in CoH forces a minimum team size.  All TFs/SFs (and even Non-Incarnate Trials), to the best of my knowledge, can be started with any number of players; some are even designed to be ran with as few as 3 or 4 players.  Heck, you can solo TFs if you want to.  Forcing a minimum team size goes against what makes CoH so unique.

For what it's worth, minimum team sizes going away was a post-shutdown thing so I would hardly say this game is unique because it doesn't force team sizes. That being said, this bonus does not force anything. It simply means you may occasionally get a little extra reward for doing the exact same stuff you're already doing in the exact same way you're already doing it. Additionally, teams of as few as two characters can still qualify for the bonus with the current AT distribution.

[Troo]

"Epic archetypes count for three different roles at once."

 

Tested

• Team with Soldier and Widow did not enable the new bonus
• Team with Soldier and Warshade did enable the new bonus
  • The Warshade dropped just after entering the first mission and the icon remained (not sure if it would still award).
  • Question, does the strike force only have to start the first mission with a "perfect team" or do they have to finish the entire strike force?

 

15 hours ago, Marbing said:

Fear is a powerful motivator.

I am on the side of let it roll and see what happens. It can always be adjusted later. The bonus isn’t huge, and it’s one prismatic per day… if it’s taken away I don’t think people will miss it.

 

Who is experiencing fear? Please point them out. Is it fear of missing out on the bonus? Maybe I am missing some context as to what you are saying.

Once given it is hard to take stuff away.. ala Empyrean Merits changes.

 

The inconsistency of "role" for this bonus with character creation and documentation descriptions shouldn't be overlooked.

 

13 hours ago, Ghost said:

I like how most on here think when this goes live, every team leader will suddenly demand the correct team makeup.

 

Thanks for using 'most' and not 'everyone'.

I don't think every or even most team leaders would look to qualify for the bonus.. but some will.

I don't think every team will kick someone for not having the right AT.. but some will.

I don't think that every team that starts a strike force which doesn't qualify will have someone drop from the team without explanation.. but some will.

It's a bit frustrating to fill a team for a less popular strike force and have someone drop just after starting.

 

What is the exceptable number of not fun or bad experiences?

 

-----  -  -----

 

If there aren't enough PAPs out there we could just award them to anyone who finishes a non-incarnate strike force, task force or trial. One per 18 hour period.

• Simpler
• Doesn't matter if it's a smaller team or even solo
• Avoids some potential less desirable behavior

[sbloyd]

FOMO is absolutely a thing.  I... almost never do team stuff lately, excepting Hamidon and MSR.  Yet when I look at this system, my immediate gut reaction was a hit of FOMO, that the next time I did team content I'd *have* to use Diversification so I'd get that extra Aether.

 

And like most of you folks, I could probably buy a couple thousand of them off the AH any time I wanted.  But the Fear of Missing Out hits hard.

[psylum1]

Wow this is actually controversial to people? 

 

Look prismatic aether are valuable because you can spend them (which takes them out of the market) on cosmetic pieces for characters. As long as people create alts they want to bling out, the demand for Aether will only rise.

 

If you think 1 Aether per character per day is going to flood the market wait till you see what me and my friends do with 4 star advanced modes.

 

Then there's the question of FOMO. 1 aether per day is going to be game changing fo new players, for old hands though, it's just a nice cherry on top in th event you aren't building a meme team.

Edited January 24 by psylum1

[arcane]

1 minute ago, psylum1 said:

If you think 1 Aether per character per day is going to flood the market wait till you see what me and my friends do with 4 star advanced modes.

Seriously. It’s a drop in the bucket. One 4 star combo team right now dumps 400 Aethers on the market in less than a couple hours.

[psylum1]

My merry band of idiots can clear the ITF in under 50 minutes. We have Aeon down to sub-hour times, with the Vanguard fight.

 

It won't take us long to do the same for Lady Grey. 

 

We are ruining the Aether Market

 

The point of this being that 1 Aether Per day per character won't ruin the market. 1 Aether Per day is not going to encourage team leads to kick people or force others to switch characters. You will more than likely get the bonus just from the same random recruiting you  do already.

Edited January 24 by psylum1

[Marbing]

So to summarize, the people against this are afraid of the following happening:

 

1) It will ruin the spirit of the game by forcing people to play certain roles.

2) It will add way too many more PA into the market, which will cause a negative disruption of some kind.

3) It will cause people to be booted from teams at a much higher rate than before by team leaders chasing the bonus (which is limited to 1 PA per character per 18 hours).

 

Is there anything I am missing?

I am not saying I agree with these points. I am trying to clarify in a succinct way what the current fears around this change are. We have 7 pages of this so I felt it would be a good idea to consolidate those fears, for anyone just joining.

Edited January 24 by Marbing

[PeregrineFalcon]

26 minutes ago, psylum1 said:

Wow this is actually controversial to people? 

No. This is not controversial.

 

This is a feedback thread and some people are for it and some people are against it. No one is angry, none of us are "haters", no one is "gatekeeping", etc. Some of us are just against this particular feature for the logical and rational reasons that we've stated.

 

Wow. It sure is weird all of these accounts that I don't normally see just coming out of the woodwork to comment in this particular thread. Not other threads, not commenting on other subjects, just showing up to comment in this particular thread and no other. It's almost like the call went out to come here to this particular thread and defend this feature.

 

This thread has far more posts, especially if you include all of the hidden ones, than any of the other focused feedback threads. Before my post gets deleted ask yourself why that is.

[psylum1]

People are coming out of the wood work because this is more than likely a positive feature that will help new players get the resources to start building out their characters.

It's not rocket science. 

[Gobbledigook]

I have just been reading through some of the posts....

 

So we need to fill the roles to get a bonus Aether?

If we can not find a support for example we wait to find one?

If the AT needed to fill the role is completely under geared on SO's or DO's only we have to take them for the bonus?(sometimes this is possible depending on the rest of the team).

I can't get on a team because i don't fill the required role?  My Widow has an easier time getting teams than other AT's lol?

A corruptor is now not support although it is listed under the support section? Arachnos soldier is support but a Widow is not?

 

Seems a bit weird to me.

 

If you want to give a bonus aether then just give it once a day on a TF/SF per account (not character)or better still just give it us for free everyday, as i don't really care who has the Aethers or the market lol. 

 

 

Edited January 24 by Gobbledigook