Bad Habits

[Saiyajinzoningen]

I think we have all been guilty of those said behaviors at some point.

It all depends on your mood, the AT, the team, or how much time you have left to play.

In classic COH, team strategy was basic and fairly relaxed excluding hamidon.

Even in situations where teams work well together it becomes a judgementfestorama

Voice chat helps tighten team strategy up. then and now.

 

[Andreah]

It take a lot from another player to get me to be judgmental -- I've been on the receiving end of those, myself. And it can go both ways -- if a team leader is being too picky over your playstyle to the point you're not having fun, well, add a note and move on. It doesn't mean they're a bad person -- it just means you don't enjoy playing with them.

[Shenanigunner]

2 hours ago, Seed22 said:

I also feel I need to clarify: STICKING TOGETHER IS NOT THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY AS A TEAM.

 

sometimes it can mean the stalker going off to grab the mish objective, or someone going off to kill a boss. Teamwork comes in many shapes and sizes.

 

If you can stealth to the objective, why bother to team at all?

 

I loosely agree in that team members should play to their strengths, but the emphasis is on teaming, not all clomping around while one player does some specialty trick.

 

If teaming means "max XP and rewards"... see above comment about jacking your individual level instead.

 

Unless everyone on the team is good with such speed/cuts. If that's a worthwhile evening to you, power on.

[Doc_Scorpion]

Just now, Shenanigunner said:

I loosely agree in that team members should play to their strengths, but the emphasis is on teaming, not all clomping around while one player does some specialty trick.

As a dev said some time back...  "There's a difference between teaming and soloing on the same map a bunch of other people happen to also be on".

[Luminara]

I'm more inclined to blame the game than the players.  The short duration on buffs (even "long duration" in Co* is typically only 2 minutes) trains players to rush forward.  Get to the next spawn before the buff expires!  Squeeze in one more fight before the buff is gone!  THE ICON IS BLINKING, HURRY!

 

Longer durations on some buffs would probably alleviate at least some of the rush mentality.

[Shenanigunner]

3 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

As a dev said some time back...  "There's a difference between teaming and soloing on the same map a bunch of other people happen to also be on".

 

Some of my favorite team memories are of having multiple stalkers, and without a word of coordination, lining up on the Big Bad for a combined first strike, while the rest of the team hovered just out of aggro range, ready to pound in while the squishies RLH.

 

Ditto for multi-blaster teams.

 

To me, that's teaming.

[vibal]

"Bad Habits"

"Stupid"

"Ignorant"

"Grandstanding"

"Guilty"

 

I mean... are you guys reading your own thread? Could someone link the inverse of this thread where the speed community is calling you stupid, ignorant, and incapable?

 

I run fast teams and always clearly advertise them as such. My anecdotal experience is that I rarely see a fast player lambasting someone for not keeping up. The reverse is not true. Too often I've had players join my advertised speed teams and get bent out of shape that I'm playing wrong. That's obviously biased by confirmation. I run fast so that's the conflict I'll see most often, but the bad juju isn't generated by people implying that someone is too slow.

 

54 KM ITF's are fine by the community and being overtuned there never seems to cause static. It's just a farm with a pretty AV at the end, but okay.

 

Maybe ease up on the tension a bit yeah? If someone joins your sweep and is ruining the feng shui -- clarify or boot. If you join a team that's a surprise speed you can quit. Apparently you weren't required anyhow >shrug<.

 

The difference between the attitudes is I haven't seen a fast player in the thread, or frankly game, come around to imply that you're playing "wrong" if you prefer to spawn -> spawn sweep. Fun is subjective. Nobody is breaking any rules. Nor is anyone here (myself included) an arbiter of those nonexistent rules. Maybe have your fun and don't associate with people having a different version of fun. Maybe they aren't stupid, ignorant, or guilty of anything.

[Ironblade]

22 hours ago, Snarky said:

I never kick. I honestly do not even know if you can kick from a TF

You can.  If I recall correctly, the only time you can't kick on a whim is in incarnate trials when you're running an 'open league'.  Then you have to have a vote to kick someone.

[Ironblade]

20 hours ago, Shenanigunner said:

If you can stealth to the objective, why bother to team at all?

 

To save time for everyone.  I run a lot of task forces and I will typically run the weeklies multiples times in a week.  Synapse and Citadel are TORTURE.  On SOME of the task forces, when I'm giving initial instructions and telling what difficulty I'm setting, I tell people to please stealth objectives whenever they can.

[catsi563]

On 1/24/2024 at 4:22 AM, Snarky said:

Unpredictable and dangerous 

 

iz very tru *nod nod*

[Shenanigunner]

1 hour ago, Ironblade said:

 

To save time for everyone.  I run a lot of task forces and I will typically run the weeklies multiples times in a week.  Synapse and Citadel are TORTURE.  On SOME of the task forces, when I'm giving initial instructions and telling what difficulty I'm setting, I tell people to please stealth objectives whenever they can.

 

Okay.

 

This very much falls to the heart of the "why bother" argument, to me. Why bother to TF, why bother to team, why bother to play at all if the actual, you know, gameplay is such tedious torture, justifying any shortcut or exploit to avoid?

 

With all due civility, don't spend time on an answer. I'll just concede that I am some kind of outlying weirdo who likes to play the games, not... uber-master them in an endless loop of tortuous speed-leveling.

 

"Baseball CoX is a game. Games are meant to be fun" — Jack Elliott

 

 

[Seed22]

4 hours ago, vibal said:

Bad Habits"

"Stupid"

"Ignorant"

"Grandstanding"

"Guilty

Hey these perfectly describe how I feel about   this whole argument(not yours, the “counterpoints” if I can even call em that. Just seems to be like the anti farming arguments.)

Edited January 25 by Seed22

[Captain Fabulous]

23 hours ago, Andreah said:

Well, I don't mind how anyone else plays their character (so long as they're not using Dimension Shift). That being said, [Taunt] will apply a 100% -Range debuff, and pull in snipers/marksmen/etc -- just hitting them with any old ranged attack won't. [Taunt] is a potent tactical tool; if a player would only be using it to "taunt" the enemies they're already hitting, I don't know what to say about that.

I know what it does. I'm still not going to waste a power slot on it. But if others do, hey, whatever works for you. I'm only speaking for myself.

[Captain Fabulous]

5 hours ago, vibal said:

"Bad Habits"

"Stupid"

"Ignorant"

"Grandstanding"

"Guilty"

 

I mean... are you guys reading your own thread? Could someone link the inverse of this thread where the speed community is calling you stupid, ignorant, and incapable?

 

I run fast teams and always clearly advertise them as such. My anecdotal experience is that I rarely see a fast player lambasting someone for not keeping up. The reverse is not true. Too often I've had players join my advertised speed teams and get bent out of shape that I'm playing wrong. That's obviously biased by confirmation. I run fast so that's the conflict I'll see most often, but the bad juju isn't generated by people implying that someone is too slow.

 

54 KM ITF's are fine by the community and being overtuned there never seems to cause static. It's just a farm with a pretty AV at the end, but okay.

 

Maybe ease up on the tension a bit yeah? If someone joins your sweep and is ruining the feng shui -- clarify or boot. If you join a team that's a surprise speed you can quit. Apparently you weren't required anyhow >shrug<.

 

The difference between the attitudes is I haven't seen a fast player in the thread, or frankly game, come around to imply that you're playing "wrong" if you prefer to spawn -> spawn sweep. Fun is subjective. Nobody is breaking any rules. Nor is anyone here (myself included) an arbiter of those nonexistent rules. Maybe have your fun and don't associate with people having a different version of fun. Maybe they aren't stupid, ignorant, or guilty of anything.

No one is criticizing speed teams. Lighten up, Francis. The complaint is about that one guy who decides to speed run when THE REST OF THE TEAM ISN'T.
 

1 hour ago, Shenanigunner said:

Why bother to TF, why bother to team, why bother to play at all if the actual, you know, gameplay is such tedious torture, justifying any shortcut or exploit to avoid?

Because not all content is created equal. Some TFs are pretty fun. Others are a slog. But seeing as they're the only consistent way to earn merits we're stuck doing them, even the less-enjoyable ones.

[vibal]

27 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

No one is criticizing speed teams. Lighten up, Francis. The complaint is about that one guy who decides to speed run when THE REST OF THE TEAM ISN'T.

Except literally everyone in the thread.

 

Also, if anyone touches any of my stuff, and i'll kill ya' 😄

[vibal]

1 hour ago, Shenanigunner said:

 

Okay.

 

This very much falls to the heart of the "why bother" argument, to me. Why bother to TF, why bother to team, why bother to play at all if the actual, you know, gameplay is such tedious torture, justifying any shortcut or exploit to avoid?

 

With all due civility, don't spend time on an answer. I'll just concede that I am some kind of outlying weirdo who likes to play the games, not... uber-master them in an endless loop of tortuous speed-leveling.

 

"Baseball CoX is a game. Games are meant to be fun" — Jack Elliott

 

 

 

Not sure who's not allowed to respond, but I figured I'd try to clarify with actual intent at civility.

 

Take (for example) Citadel. Baseline it's a pretty boring TF. It's a lot of council, in a lot of the same maps, and with a hefty helping of "kill all". That's not the most engaging gameplay. Why do I speed it? Not to hurt anyone's feelings or put a crimp in anyone else's fun hose, but because it's fun. Gonzo pulls with splits and races to the last room are engaging for the kind of characters I enjoy playing. It's perfectly okay to say that's not your wheelhouse. It doesn't make you wrong, stupid, ignorant, or even a dumbshite -- all adjectives used in this thread to describe that* type of player.

 

I don't need a rez, don't need buffs, just need a bit of space to have... fun. Why invite others? Because believe it or not, other people have fun too. It's chatty, engaging, zippy gameplay. We also all get a nice shiny reward at the end. It's the same argument, just pointed in the other direction. Not sure if that clarifies it though. My fun <> your fun and that's a-ok.

[Crossie]

I quite like when I have a bunch of superstars on my team.  I can just hang out by the door and type a lot.  

[Shenanigunner]

1 hour ago, vibal said:

Not sure who's not allowed to respond, but I figured I'd try to clarify with actual intent at civility.

 

These are open forums. Anyone can make any (reasonably polite) response to anyone about anything.

 

My only comment is that I  don't really see an argument for a "team of soloers" except that you want the company while you, er, solo. And if the content is a boring slog... why bother with it at all?

 

I'm not out to knock any one else's play style. But in many of these discussions over a dozen years, mostly in recent ones, I haven't been given a convincing answer to my basic question: if it's not fun, why do you bother? There seem to be a lot of players who seem to like the grim-jawed slog through muddy jungles part... but then do everything they can to minimize/shortcut/exploit those parts.

 

But I'm happy to leave off with "Gunner just don't get it."

[cranebump]

8 hours ago, vibal said:

I run fast teams and always clearly advertise them as such. My anecdotal experience is that I rarely see a fast player lambasting someone for not keeping up.

On the first part: that's exactly what people should do. Kudos to you (and others) for doing that. (and I feel like lots of people do)

 

On the second part: I don't see fast players lambasting anyone else, either. I don't think it's that they're necessarily "nicer" than non-speeders. Rather, I think slowpokes don't matter to a speed demon, because it's about gittin' 'r done ASAP. If that's the team's stated objective, more power to 'em. If the expectation is otherwise, then it looks like the speeder could give a sh*t about everyone else (whether they're actually thinking that or not).

 

But, really, you nailed it. Advertise. And if someone DOES advertise a style, and I hop in on it, I really should do my best to support that style of play (for a speed team, that may mean some stealth and those handy team TPs and such).

 

Reminds me: I've run on some, kind of, "hybrid" teams, where the leader will say, "Solo if you think you can handle. But please don't enter the mission until the leader zones." (I think that's how Blapperella does it on the old school runs, like Sister Pysche). If I ever got off my ass and started more actively leading teams again, that would be an approach I would probably use. I also wish I would see (or start, damn me) more smaller teams, as @Krimson suggested. A "star" team of 5, for instance. 

 

Long story short: advertise what you're doing. If you don't, then don't complain about what you get. The old days of the automatic expectation of tanks herding to a pummel spot are pretty much gone (in open play, at least). That said...my squishy still follows the tank. I need SOMEONE to blame for my stupidity, after all.:-)

[Cyri]

On 1/23/2024 at 7:41 PM, Water said:

I don't know how to word this without upsetting anyone/everyone or tempting some troublesome retort to my views in an attempt to nullify them. But it's like this....

 

....why join a team if you don't wish to play in one?

 

I have any number of characters who can solo TF's/SF's/Arcs etc and when I want to solo I won't play in a team. Contrary to that in this pretty easy game, we still have the 'glory seeker' - especially now with the large new influx due to our legitimacy. The glory seeker wishes to be on your team whilst not play as a team, even in a 'kill all'. They would rather away to the final objective as the rest of the team (up to 7 players) are transformed into the soloists' sweeping brush for 'those pesky required foes' thereby depriving our new influx from learning the game and its intricacies.

 

It only serves to show to a new player that once you you are fully slotted you can ignore your team mates and just take off to show off how 'GRAND' you are at the game with your 'ace' powers and enhancements.

 

STOP - solo the TF/SF if you want to, nobody cares and more power to you, but if you join a team play as a team.

 

 

 

A number of people (one blaster in particular) often join my teams and then go off and do whatever.  The one blaster mostly does very well.  Other times he dies and that's his problem.  If he caused my team to wipe then, and only then, I would take issue with it.  Until such point I don't see it as my responsibility or right to tell others how to play...and I always invite him when he messages me because he's very good.  Sure, I'd like him to play with us and chat a bit rather than go off on his own, but ultimately he's not doing us harm so I don't care.  On my teams I don't care whether people door sit or not either.  I am only likely to remove people from groups (with reasonable warning) if they do either of the following:

• cause me to wait (minutes - plural) before I can select next mission
• DELIBERATELY cause team wipes or through egregious incompetence cause us to wipe (everyone makes mistakes...so I am pretty patient with this)

After hundreds to thousands of hours of play, I have neither asked nor removed anyone from my teams.

[Clave Dark 5]

13 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Because not all content is created equal. Some TFs are pretty fun. Others are a slog. But seeing as they're the only consistent way to earn merits we're stuck doing them, even the less-enjoyable ones.

Agreed on those first two sentences, but... why not just not play those ever again?  I've sworn off the PI MJ arc for ages now because those large open maps are a boring slog.   But it's all about merits, I see... have fun with that I guess, speeding's even more boring, imho. 

 

That talking point's been around a long time , and it still seems to boil down as a rationalization for people, who at their root, just want the rewards faster with less effort.

[Mopery]

A good leader informs their prospective teammates what goals they have(increased level, speed, casual, kill most, etc) while recruiting for the TF.

Even then, most players just read "<whatever TF> lfm", ignore everything else, and do what they will do regardless.

 

If you call out said player, you will be called a poor leader.

If you don't call out said player, you will be called a poor leader.

If you boot said player, you will be called a poor leader and then panned in General chat for it.

If you don't boot said player, other players could quit the team.

If you do boot said player, other players could quit the team.

 

The only way to truly "win" is to just have as much fun as you can in spite of those inevitable uncooperative players.

Edited January 26 by Mopery
Varmints.

[Luminara]

12 minutes ago, Mopery said:

If you call out said player, you will be called a poor leader.

If you don't call out said player, you will be called a poor leader.

If you boot said player, you will be called a poor leader and then panned in General chat for it.

If you don't boot said player, other players could quit the team.

If you do boot said player, other players could quit the team.

 

Opportunistic cannibalism solves all of those problems.

[Skyhawke]

Communication makes every point (well, maybe not cannibalism...well, maybe for a zombie MM) relevant. I've been on teams where right from the get go the team agrees on a certain playstyle and I've been on ones that have a quick chat and change tactics midstream. Citadel is a great example as after awhile, a team that's gelling really well will say "Divide and conquer?" and we roll with that. I've also seen the teams where no communication and it becomes Keystone Cops really quickly. I find a polite way to excuse myself from those. Just a quick "Hey, mind if I stealth to the objective?" works wonders...like using your signal light in traffic. Sure, you know you can make that merge, but does everyone else? How many middle fingers can be avoided by just using your signal? Same here. Just a quick bit of communication goes a long way. 

[ZemX]

2 hours ago, Mopery said:

If you boot said player, you will be called a poor leader and then panned in General chat for it.

 

Does this actually happen?  I wouldn't know because 99% of the time I have hidden General Chat.  I know I don't ever see people being dragged in LFG for sticking to their guns about a "kill most".   Someone crying about being kicked after acting like a spoiled asshole on a team isn't getting any sympathy there.

 

I'd say if someone is speeding on a declared "kill most" you warn them, then you kick them if they ignore the warning, then you add a note reminding yourself never to invite that person again to one of your teams.  I'd even call that a "win".