Is the in-game economy weird and broken?

[tidge]

On 2/2/2024 at 1:26 AM, Yomo Kimyata said:

And I think that most people who have been on HC for awhile will tell you it's extremely easy to play a character on SOs only, or even to only slot what your enemies drop.  And that's solo.  On teams, it's pretty trivial to level all the way to 50 without having a single enhancement slotted.  You may laugh, but some people do that.

 

It's extremely easy to play a character on SOs only, or even to only slot what your enemies drop. 

 

Furthermore: since enough players craft IOs for badges, it is near-trivial to pick up IOs at bargain prices.

 

Aside from the miracles that are the Homecoming Auction House, converter roulette, and fungibility of items, Homecoming has a LOT of quality-of-life tools that make self-funding/equipping characters completely viable. Some examples:

• Fast travel options to missions/zones
• TF / Explorations/ Giant Monster merit rewards
• Catalysts drops

I have been almost exclusively self-funding and self-equipping my characters since 2020. I could make MOAR Inf, and to some extent I have been doing so... just not in a planned way... but my goal is more like "steady state".  I do leverage drops to "bank" enhancements and catalysts in a SG base, and I usually have my characters dump 200 MInf for starting funds in email for future use as soon as they've made that much back from regular play... so none of my characters are starting from 'scratch', but as @Yomo Kimyata points out... only the first character really won't have this as an option.

 

As an aside: almost all the final builds I post can look incredibly expensive... and I suppose they might be if someone wanted to buy every one of the enhancements from the AH. In practical terms, it is rare that I actually put any Inf into a character at level 50, except for crafting recipe costs and occasionally buying HO/DSyncs that I don't have lying around. Occasionally there is some piece I want that is so specific to a build that I don't have one, or the prices on the AH are simply too low to not BIN of course. Some element of planning ahead makes a HUGE difference.

[Yomo Kimyata]

11 minutes ago, tidge said:

It's extremely easy to play a character on SOs only, or even to only slot what your enemies drop. 

 

And by "most people" I mean @tidge.

 

[Cheli]

I'm a little surprised at the consternation of some in this thread honestly; it's so incredibly easy to get into the economy in this game and there's so many checks in place on the market to keep prices down that it's 500 times cheaper and easier to put together a strong build than it ever was on live. I've done just fine  and have had a relatively frustration-free experience, and I absolutely hate the "AH metagame" so many other online games force you to play.

 

"Play content and convert rewards to items that sell instantly for plenty of cash" is WAY easier than what it takes to get into the economy on a game like WoW, where you need AH-scraping addons, price scanners, secret tips gleaned from the dark corners of the web that are probably out-of-date by the time you find them, and probably multiple paid accounts if you want to get into things.

[Perfidy]

On 2/1/2024 at 5:51 PM, Zombra said:

I'm glad to be back in CoX after 15ish years away 🙂

 

However I feel really overwhelmed by what's going on with the economy now.  I'm being told "read my newb guide, this is the way you're SUPPOSED to progress.  Farm these task forces for merits, then take the merit rewards to the worktable and turn them into splanges, then sell the splanges for a billion inf each at the auction house, then use that inf to buy shoobadoo enhancements, then break those in half and smear peanut butter on them, then ...."

 

Like, I just want to run missions and get a little inf, and buy enhancements appropriate to my level.  But I feel like I'm doing it wrong and the economy is only set up to support billionaires.  I don't remember the early/mid levels being this rough, contacts don't even sell enhancements any more even though they all say they do, can't even afford DOs for my level 15 characters when I finally get to the zones that have stores.  The auction house looks like a Wild West of "exploit or die".

 

So .... what's your take?  Is the economy perfectly fine if you don't do these weird exploits people are talking about?  Or should I give up on fun and L2Farm?

 

Thanks in advance for any perspective.

So, Here's my take: 

I remember clearly playing on live and also not having enough influence for DOs in the teens. 
I remember clearly, finally getting to level 22 so I could slot SOs, and well...surprise, I could only afford 4 of them. 

Homecoming's "flavor" of CoH has made it so there are several different ways to get influence. If you just want to do missions and use those proceeds to fund your character, you can do that! But, you have to be clever. 

Instead of doing something like one-off missions that you might get from the radio or the paper, consider doing story arcs, which give you reward merits. You can use those reward merits inefficiently and buy a specific recipe or enhancement from a merit vendor, or you can exchange the reward merits for boosters or converters, (do the math and see what the AH will pay you the most for) or you can USE the converters on the recipes that dropped on you (they start dropping randomly at level 10, maybe a bit earlier if you tackle harder foes) 

There's plenty of different ways to do it. That's not to say each method is for everyone. Some folks think marketing is just grindy and boring. They just want to slot and go. I don't blame them too much, but realize part of the game is the struggle to outfit your character! Just enjoy the journey. 

[Greldek]

Most other pirate server MMos have horrificly broken economies with all the wealth being held by players hove no life's the servers since it sounds up. Often being able to dominate markets.

 

It impossible to lock down anything on COH , with all their QOL changes to the market, and things have an upper limit because nothing is unattainable , the only thing close are the hami Os where you have to run specific content where they drop. Otherwise all other recipes and sets can be purchased by the player from vendors .

 

And that first character is rough, but once you get one to 50 in is trivial to gain. Just running missions youll see a lot of it pile up, and get into the AH game and you can build 100s of millions of inf in no time .

 

Consider how many old times are sitting on billions and billions of inf, and most IO sets enhancements go for 1 to 2 million still.

 

On live you could sell white salvage for that.

[jkwak]

The economy is absolutely broken because people screw with it intentionally since I think 2021, it seems there are people who have nothing better to do than fire farming and buying stuff at 3 to 10 times the actual value, with the influx in new and returning players this year since the announced deal with NC Soft it has only gotten worse because because now there are people who don't know those prices are manipulated and willingly place bids in those price ranges as soon as the can afford it.

 

 

[kelika2]

The raw inf gained from kills 1-50 is small, its only like 30m.  thats two or three ITFs at level 50.

 

Make a firefarm account now, dont suffer later

[roleki]

5 hours ago, jkwak said:

The economy is absolutely broken because people screw with it intentionally since I think 2021, it seems there are people who have nothing better to do than fire farming and buying stuff at 3 to 10 times the actual value, with the influx in new and returning players this year since the announced deal with NC Soft it has only gotten worse because because now there are people who don't know those prices are manipulated and willingly place bids in those price ranges as soon as the can afford it.

 

 

 

There's a simple fix for that - brains and patience.   If you're after a recipe that's 'been selling' at 5M, bid 3M and wait a few days.  Aside from a few evergreen recipes/enhancements that rarely get posted at a discount, chances are good you'll get what you were after at a fraction of the MSRP.  

Keep in mind, 99/100 is a fraction, as is 1258/100.  

[golstat2003]

On 2/2/2024 at 1:01 AM, Lockely said:

 

This is all great info, but I can't help but laugh that it's literally is the point of his initial post where it feels like an overwhelming twelve hundred step program to funding a character initially. 

 

It's either use Merits or use the /AH.

 

Or stick with SOs.

 

Or you can simply use the merits to purchase boosters/converters, sell them and then fund you SO build multple times over.

 

That last line is as easy as it gets.

[Doc Spectre]

if you like to play lots of Alternate characters I found a great way to save Inf is to make a personal Supergroup and invite all your Alts with /altinvite characters name

then make a base with storage racks for IOs and invention salvage plus a crafting station.

you can now put your lower level IOs in storage for new Alt characters when you do a respec.

[Snarky]

Might as well quit.  (Email me your stuff first)

[macskull]

9 hours ago, jkwak said:

The economy is absolutely broken because people screw with it intentionally since I think 2021, it seems there are people who have nothing better to do than fire farming and buying stuff at 3 to 10 times the actual value, with the influx in new and returning players this year since the announced deal with NC Soft it has only gotten worse because because now there are people who don't know those prices are manipulated and willingly place bids in those price ranges as soon as the can afford it.

This argument might hold water if we weren’t in the situation where prices on most items have come down since 2019, but here we are.

[Cyrickain13]

Hi - Billionaire here. The economy is fine. I was lucky to inherit several million inf from my predecessor.  From there I went and invested in real estate, you would be surprised how many bases were up for sale in the early 2020's. Most of them that I purchased were filled with many storage units containing tons of enhancements that I was able to stack the market with using convertors and my knowledge of rarity. Within a few months I was able to invest 700 million inf into a farmer. Some would say that farming is dying profession but let me tell you, in 2020 it was not. 

 

With those bases I invested in workshops and mobile workshops on multiple heroes and villains. I was able to afford running and outfitting several super groups. Each one of them distinct from the others. With the Hero and Villan number's dwindling I was able to broker quite profitable coalitions for me and them as well. 

 

Is everything I dipped my fingers in legal? Of course, I am an upstanding induvial. Keep trucking young hero or villain. One day your ship will come in too. 

 

-Horus Spithos - Aka Heat-Spike

Veteran of the Rikti Wars

Hero of Kings Row

Ceo H.E.A.T Technolgies

Estimated Worth - 8.2 Billion Inf. 

Current Worth - 275 Million Inf. 

Edited February 5 by Cyrickain13
spelling

[Perfidy]

10 hours ago, jkwak said:

The economy is absolutely broken because people screw with it intentionally since I think 2021, it seems there are people who have nothing better to do than fire farming and buying stuff at 3 to 10 times the actual value, with the influx in new and returning players this year since the announced deal with NC Soft it has only gotten worse because because now there are people who don't know those prices are manipulated and willingly place bids in those price ranges as soon as the can afford it.

 

 

I believe there are flaws in your logic. You're under the impression that fire farmers are buying stuff at 3 to 10 times the actual value. Based on what? 
If you ask them, most farmers farm for specific reasons. 
For some, it's fun. Relaxing. Others farm specifically for influence to outfit their other characters. You think those players are spending 3-10x what they should? Why? 

And...let's not lose sight of a couple things. Price and value. 
Price is what you have to pay, regardless of value. But the value for an item is different for many of us. A player who enjoys pvp is more likely to spend influence on a microfilament (the one that boosts end reduction and travel speed), whereas myself, I'll just use a quickfoot run/end and boost it 5x. It's only a little less of a boost, and certainly cheaper than a micro. 

But just because you or I might think a luck of the gambler 7.5% should come in free sets of 5 when you come out of the character creation screen, there are more than a few folks who think the price is fair, given the salvage, the converters and the time and trouble to create the items in the first place. 

As for newer players unwittingly paying more than they should - that is probably true. And sad. Which is why I've been randomly giving away 50M to 200M to random folks who can type something in the chat channel fast enough. 

But be clear on one thought: Fire farmers might have a fair amount of influence. But they are below average when you take into account the marketers, who can make millions of inf in a few minutes, consistently, throughout the day. The "ebil marketers" (don't ask me why those folks can't type out Evil properly) are the ones who place most of the things you're going to buy on the market. Not the farmers. The better marketers don't have merely billions. They have hundreds of billions. I suspect Yomo may even be close to 1 trillion by now, depending on how active he's been.  

[Ironblade]

10 hours ago, jkwak said:

The economy is absolutely broken because people screw with it intentionally since I think 2021, it seems there are people who have nothing better to do than fire farming and buying stuff at 3 to 10 times the actual value, with the influx in new and returning players this year since the announced deal with NC Soft it has only gotten worse because because now there are people who don't know those prices are manipulated and willingly place bids in those price ranges as soon as the can afford it.

 

As if.  Aside from brief blips, the economy has been steadily improving and is VASTLY better than it was back on live.  That last part is absolutely indisputable.

I would conclude you don't really understand the game economy and this is causing you to misinterpret what you see.

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 2/1/2024 at 9:52 PM, Yomo Kimyata said:

But the fundamental issue, and this hasn't changed since Live, is that your very first character will almost certainly be a cash drain until it hits its 40s.  Once you have a character at 50, and if you want to play it at 50, you will generate an incredible amount of inf by vendoring the enhancements and recipes that drop.  Getting that first character past the scarcity challenge is awkward, but you, like everyone else, only have to do it once at most!

 

I neglected to mention something before.  I realize that a lot of new people are joining/returning and starting a bunch of alts.  This is normally wonderful and frankly the primary reason I play this game.  However, one is probably best served by getting your first character to 50 first before engaging in altitis or else you will have the same funding problem on all your alts at the same time.

[MoonSheep]

23 hours ago, jkwak said:

The economy is absolutely broken because people screw with it intentionally since I think 2021, it seems there are people who have nothing better to do than fire farming and buying stuff at 3 to 10 times the actual value, with the influx in new and returning players this year since the announced deal with NC Soft it has only gotten worse because because now there are people who don't know those prices are manipulated and willingly place bids in those price ranges as soon as the can afford it.

 

disclaimer: may be wholly inaccurate and not based on factual realities of low and continously lowering prices on the CoH Homecoming Auction House

[biostem]

On 2/1/2024 at 6:51 PM, Zombra said:

I just want to run missions and get a little inf, and buy enhancements appropriate to my level.

If you want to avoid playing the market or utilizing the auction house, then there are 3 basic paths you can take:

 

1. Simply buy single-origin enhancements, (SOs), and/or use the ones you get as drops from enemies.  This is the simplest method, but results in a generally lower power level for your character.

 

2. Use the invention components and recipes you get as drops to craft invention-origin enhancements, (IOs), and slot them where appropriate.  You can also buy generic recipes, (i.e. ones that aren't part of a set), at any invention work table, directly for influence/infamy, then craft them as long as you have enough of the correct components.

 

3. Some content, like Hamidon Raids, the Ms. Liberty/Statesman Taskforce, Lord Recluse Strike Force, or Dr. Aeon Strike Force, can reward you with special enhancements upon their completion, so you could always just farm that content.

 

That being said, I think you would be doing yourself a disservice by not using your hard-earned inf to buy the specific set enhancements you want off of the auction house.  One approach you can make is that, by time you reach 50, you'll have unlocked 3 total builds you can switch between on that character;  You could always create an "everyday play" build using the aforementioned SOs, then work on saving up your inf to fully kit-out one of your other builds.  Whatever you decide, remember to have fun and not let the game's various systems and interfaces overwhelm or frustrate you!

Edited February 6 by biostem

[Water]

And yet nobody goes broke...

[MonteCarla]

It would be great if you could play CoH without using the market, and have a decent ride from 1 to 50 where your crimefighting proceeds kept you in normal enhancements bought from the vendors.

The economy has always been broken. I remember getting to my first level 22 character and having no money to buy SO's (back when that was their minimum level). I remember out-levelling my SO's once by levelling up and not being able to afford more.

And I remember getting my first level 50 and by then having 4 million and nothing to spend it on (back in issue 6 or whatever)

 

So the base path through the game has always been one of absolute famine followed by feast, which isn't as satisfying as being able to fulfil your basic needs as you go.

 

None of this matters to multi-billionaire me now. But it matters to new players. I've tutored a few new folk recently after task forces on how to use their merits to make easy money, and I do think its all a bit complicated, and can see how it would be off-putting if you came here just to play superheroes.

 

So I hear you, @Zombra

 

If it were up to me, I'd make base enhancements not go off as you level up in the same way common IO's don't. That way a new player could buy TO's, graduate to DO's and then SO's bit by bit and feel steady progression.

 

 

 

That said, go buy those "splanges" (converters) with merits from doing some story arcs like the Hollows or Faultline, and get comfortably off. That's the best advice with the way the game is set up now.

 

Edited February 6 by MonteCarla

[Perfidy]

On 2/2/2024 at 12:26 AM, Yomo Kimyata said:

And I think that most people who have been on HC for awhile will tell you it's extremely easy to play a character on SOs only, or even to only slot what your enemies drop. 

It's not difficult to do this. If you're loaded with inf, like some of us, this type of play is often the only thing to make you excited about what drops. Imagine, thinking a common end mod recipe or standard enhancement is more rare than a purple/very rare recipe drop. 

While it's not difficult to rely solely on what drops, you do play differently. You'd need to. And if soloing, you'll go a lot more slowly than otherwise. 

I think our OP is just feeling a little frustrated about the initial hoops we all jumped through in one fashion or another. 

[macskull]

4 hours ago, MonteCarla said:

I remember getting to my first level 22 character and having no money to buy SO's (back when that was their minimum level). I remember out-levelling my SO's once by levelling up and not being able to afford more.

There's at least one other server out there that's changed TO/DO/SO leveling scales so that these enhancements work over a wider range of levels than just +/- 3 to your character. Maybe that's something worth investigating.

[gaouP]

On 2/1/2024 at 7:30 PM, Psyonico said:

The other thing when you're new to the economy: double XP is not your friend, you don't get a ton of inf early levels, but every but helps, and double XP means no inf gain.

You know you can get salvage and merits that add up as well while leveling with 2x EXP, right? Even if you're missing the inf you would get from combat, the orange and purple salvage does make up for it as you can get some core pieces or depending on your powersets, Lv30 IOs that will stay useful like Basilisk.

[Greldek]

22 hours ago, Ironblade said:

 

As if.  Aside from brief blips, the economy has been steadily improving and is VASTLY better than it was back on live.  That last part is absolutely indisputable.

I would conclude you don't really understand the game economy and this is causing you to misinterpret what you see.

I came back from a few months break recently and prices on everything except atos, purples, and winters are lower than when I left. And those have held at about the same price as before I left, but skewing to the higher end of their average.

[Andreah]

On 2/5/2024 at 12:46 PM, Perfidy said:

But be clear on one thought: Fire farmers might have a fair amount of influence. But they are below average when you take into account the marketers, who can make millions of inf in a few minutes, consistently, throughout the day. The "ebil marketers" (don't ask me why those folks can't type out Evil properly) are the ones who place most of the things you're going to buy on the market. Not the farmers. The better marketers don't have merely billions. They have hundreds of billions. I suspect Yomo may even be close to 1 trillion by now, depending on how active he's been.  

Yomo may not toot his own horn every time -- so I'll do it for him. He is, to my knowledge, the first confirmed Trillionaire in Homecoming.

 

I'm not too far behind. And I don't farm at all. Others are up in the hundreds of billions too. Some might be past Yomo and have been quiet about it. Hard to say.

 

Yes, people with this amount of game-wealth could spend 3-10x the going prices of things just because they can, and not even slow down their wealth gains. But that's generally not the kind of personality that enjoys the market game. Overpaying for things is, to me, an affront to reason, frugality, and all else that is holy. 

 

Those I call Marketeers hoard their wealth as a way of keeping score, often privately, to measure their success. And it has a side benefit to other people. My hundreds of billions are sequestered out of the economy, never to be spent. What I do spend is ever only a small fraction of my market gains. Marketeers are a "Money Sink", we permanently pull money out of the game economy. It sits on alts we never play, in emails we never claim, and in market bids that can never have filled.

 

If you recall your basic economics, inflation is caused by "too much money chasing too few goods". Marketeers attack both sides of that equation -- they remove money from the economy, AND create those goods the markets demand.  Those LotG +7.5% global recharge enhancements didn't show up from nowhere; people like Yomo and I made them out of trash no one else wanted or cared to bother with. You're welcome.

 

IMO, the prices are already fair -- and if a person disagrees, they don't have to pay them; no one forces them to. And they could make their own LotG's out of trash drops too.