Is there really a massive proc nerf just around the corner?

[Triumphant]

I think the Dev's should do whatever is best for the game.  I have no experience at building proc-focused characters (although, certainly, I do have characters that use some procs- some damage, some not).  Because of that, I honestly can't say whether or not they need to be nerfed.  

 

But, if they need it, I say nerf 'em.

 

Whenever you change anything in the game, whatever it may be, it's always going to frustrate someone that liked it the way it was before.  But that's just one more reason why changes should be approached with careful, cautious consideration.

The other thing to consider is this:  As long as you back up your base-code, if a change ever proves to be too unpopular, you can always revert to a previous build.

[macskull]

I suppose I'll throw my usual line in here: proc nerfs are a solution in search of a problem. Do I fully expect they're going to happen, and probably soon? Yeah. Is any reasonable player going to like them? No.

[Frostbiter]

I can say with absolute certainty that no proc nerf is going to slow me down a bit. Anyone that built for proc builds knew they were playing with fire.

[wjrasmussen]

4 hours ago, Cobalt Azurean said:

Don't try and balance a horribly broken proc system because it affects you directly? Well, let's not make this about the sustained health of the game or something relevant.

Just refund money on proc enh just to make it right.

[Azari]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 

This argument probably sounded better in your head. 

How about this: it would cripple MANY people’s favorite toons.

[Videra]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

I suppose I'll throw my usual line in here: proc nerfs are a solution in search of a problem. Do I fully expect they're going to happen, and probably soon? Yeah. Is any reasonable player going to like them? No.

 

This.

Procs are not 'overtuned', they are not an issue. If you blanket nerf procs - which is what is liable to happen if an 'Aprocalypse' were to come to pass - then suddenly you have successfully made the gulf between Fire Blast and everything else even bigger.

This is before accounting for the fact that Controllers, Defenders, Kheldians and MMs rely on procs to deal half-way decent damage.

[Azari]

33 minutes ago, Videra said:

 

This.

Procs are not 'overtuned', they are not an issue. If you blanket nerf procs - which is what is liable to happen if an 'Aprocalypse' were to come to pass - then suddenly you have successfully made the gulf between Fire Blast and everything else even bigger.

This is before accounting for the fact that Controllers, Defenders, Kheldians and MMs rely on procs to deal half-way decent damage.

Exactly. Nerfing procs means nerfing everything that isnt fire blast. It’s just so uncool.

[Erratic1]

Oh gee, the usual suspects indirectly talking about ATs they admit they don't play and what is right and proper for them. 🙄

 

If there were any urgency to nerf procs the nerf bat would have swung by now. At this point the idea of a proc nerf is about as credible as Anastasia surviving the murder of the Russian royal family. I still have no idea what is thought to be gained by radically shifting the functioning of tons of players that would drive this supposed cataclysmic shift in the upper tiers of the game.

 

So the perpetual fear of Tanker players, that the, "Bad Old Days" will return is at best a fever dream of overanxious minds.

[Erratic1]

46 minutes ago, Videra said:

Procs are not 'overtuned', they are not an issue. If you blanket nerf procs - which is what is liable to happen if an 'Aprocalypse' were to come to pass - then suddenly you have successfully made the gulf between Fire Blast and everything else even bigger.

 

Something which could be dealt with by adjusting other powers upward, Fire Blast downward, or both.

 

Nerf proc ain't happening, but the "problem" advanced is easily dealt with.

[Snarky]

[DougGraves]

2 hours ago, macskull said:

I suppose I'll throw my usual line in here: proc nerfs are a solution in search of a problem. Do I fully expect they're going to happen, and probably soon? Yeah. Is any reasonable player going to like them? No.

 

I suppose when facts and logic are against you, I suppose ad hominen attacks are what you have to go with.

[Ukase]

6 hours ago, Azari said:

If procs are really nerfed to such an extent as these anti-proc goons I see in general chat seem to want

Emphasis added by me to make it stick out. 

I know I'm not the only person who makes a character and as soon as I notice my character is in General chat by default, I remove it from entering my text boxes. 
General chat has a purpose - it's where a lot of folks who like to disagree with each other go to chat. Not saying that's everyone, but man, those folks seem to like to quibble. So, I just take it out. 

Just stop paying attention to it. 

About the procs. I would have no idea if they're going to adjust them or not. I have heard rumors, like a lot of people. It would depend on what they do, I suppose. 
I only have a handful of characters I really care about - most, if they were impacted by the change - I'd just not play them anymore and make a new character. That's what the 1000 slots are for. 

When someone says, "Oh Super Strength is lower-tier", this is what I'd like you to keep in mind: 
I build my characters different than you do. I build mine different from that guy with the silly costume. I build them differently than most other folks. 

So, how is someone going to tell me that my character sucks compared to someone's Shield/mace tank? They can say it all they want. They can believe it all they want. But that doesn't make it so. If my character gets the job done, then I guess it doesn't suck that bad. The only arguments I hear against SS are that as good as foot stomp is, it comes too late, and there's no other AoE. Well, AoE isn't the greatest thing in the world. Sometimes, you need single target dps. 

Do I want them to change procs? No, not really. I kind of just figured them out, thanks to a spreadsheet that lets you fill in the values and it computes the odds of a proc firing. 
It's really interesting to see how many builds people put in the forums, and I crunch the numbers and see they've wasted slots with damage procs that will never fire. 

If you really want to try and head off disaster, maybe go to brainstorm and measure your character's dps without the slots. 
Then, measure every other powerset that's not SS and showcase how bad your character will be without the procs compared to the other sets. 
I think you'll find it's not as bad as these goons in general chat think it is. 

Mind you  - I haven't done these tests. But I can guarantee you your SS out-dps's my SS/dark tank. I can't even get past Trapdoor! Every other character I've made has wiped him out in about 15 seconds, but not this stupid tank. Mostly my fault for trying to use Soul Drain on him, instead of the group of Arachnos at the front of the catwalk. I guess I should slap some procs in. 

[Greycat]

Ingredients

    ▢ 6 medium apples (Granny Smith, Golden Delicious, or other good baking apple), peeled and cut into chunks ¼ inch thick
    ▢ 1 cup water or apple juice
    ▢ 1/3 cup brown sugar , packed
    ▢ 1 Tablespoon cornstarch
    ▢ 1 Tablespoon lemon juice
    ▢ 1/2 teaspoon vanilla extract
    ▢ 1 teaspoon ground cinnamon
    ▢ 1/2 teaspoon ground nutmeg
    ▢ 1/8 teaspoon salt

For the batter:

    ▢ 1 cup all-purpose flour
    ▢ 1 cup granulated sugar
    ▢ 2 teaspoons baking powder
    ▢ 1/4 teaspoon salt
    ▢ 3/4 cup milk
    ▢ 5 Tablespoons butter , melted
    ▢ ground cinnamon for topping

Instructions
 

    Preheat the oven to 350°F and grease a 9×13 inch pan lightly with cooking spray.
    Stir together brown sugar, water, cornstarch, lemon juice, vanilla, cinnamon, nutmeg, and salt together in a saucepan. Stir in apples. Cook over medium heat for 3-5 minutes, stirring.
    Pour mixture into prepared pan.
    In a large bowl mix together the flour, sugar, baking powder, and salt. Stir in the milk and melted butter, just until combined.
    Pour the mixture over the apples in the pan. Sprinkle lightly with cinnamon.
    Bake for about 38-40 minutes or until a toothpick inserted into the topping comes out clean.
    Allow to cool for at least 15 minutes before serving. Serve warm with vanilla ice cream, if desired.
    Cover and store leftovers in the refrigerator for up to 4 days.

Notes
Make Ahead:
You could prepare the apple filling and store it in the fridge for up to 3 days, or freeze it for up to 3 months.
You can also freeze the baked cobbler for up to 3 months. Thaw overnight in the refrigerator and warm in the oven before serving.

[Jacke]

[  I just play the game and help with testing in Closed Beta.  I'm not a Dev.  ]

 

 

5 hours ago, Lines said:

Proc changes were on the dev's radar quite some time ago, but it's not come up recently.

 

Good point!  Set the Wayback Machine to 2020 Sep 20!

 

---

 

Procs & PPM
Something we’ve recently started looking at is procs. We’re only scratching the surface here, but our goals are similar to that with powersets: Bringing each option towards a happy medium. One big topic that needs looking at specifically is PPM. This system was still in beta when the game shut down, so it never really graduated properly to the live servers, and never received any follow-up balance passes.

 

There are numerous issues right now, such as the interaction it has with different types of recharge bonuses and AoEs, which causes the system to be unintuitive (slotting for recharge can make a power… less good!) in some areas and not well balanced in other areas (many procs are very strong in AoEs and very weak in single targets). 

 

Along with improving general game balance there’s a secondary benefit to cleaning up PPM and procs: it will allow us to continue building new enhancement sets with new and unique procs and set bonuses.

 

We’ve got no firm plans to discuss just yet, but it is a key area we will be looking at in the future.

 

---

 

Herm....  What have I heard and seen about Procs?

• Best Farming Builds, massive use of Procs.
• Lots of talk about "Proc bombing...."
• Lots of complaints whenever certain powers (like Dual Pistols' Suppressive Fire) get Base Recharge Reductions.

Trying to figure out Procs.  Herm....  Complex.  Have asked a lot of questions, still unsure.  Seems to be a knife-edge whether it's worth it.  Except if there's a lot of Procs.  Especially Damage Procs.

 

But a lot of Procs would prevent pursuing other build goals.  Also seems wrong, a Superhero Game implementation error.

 

I don't Proc-bomb when I design and implement builds.  Very rarely got to 3 in one power, never more, most often 1 or none.  Often remove Procs to aid otherwise.

 

What else have I read about Procs....

 

6 hours ago, Cobalt Azurean said:

Don't try and balance a horribly broken proc system because it affects you directly? Well, let's not make this about the sustained health of the game or something relevant.

 

I've been affected directly by changes to the game.  I'm still doing re-builds due to i27 Page 5 changes, but I like being able to take the T1 or T2 of a Secondary at L1.  And other changes, example to Powersets, some I like, others I don't, but that's true for most Players I would think.  I think the overall effect of what the current Devs are doing is quite good.

 

I want City of Heroes on Homecoming to be a sustainable healthy game.  That's the goal of the Devs too.

 

What else....  Ah, yes!  Whispers from behind the curtain....

 

Some important fixes, improvements to the game, cannot be done due to concerns about how the current PPM system would interact with them.  There is a fear that things will get worse in other ways if these fixes go through.

 

So these fixes get put off for now.  Including a major fix to a whole AT.

 

Some day the APROCALYPSE will come.  It will be a rebalance of the Proc System.  It is a necessary change.

 

I think the long amount of time since that mention in 2020 just indicates that this is a very major change that needs to be done properly when it comes.

 

 

[Snarky]

11 minutes ago, Jacke said:

[  I just play the game and help with testing in Closed Beta.  I'm not a Dev.  ]

 

 

 

Good point!  Set the Wayback Machine to 2020 Sep 20!

 

---

 

Procs & PPM
Something we’ve recently started looking at is procs. We’re only scratching the surface here, but our goals are similar to that with powersets: Bringing each option towards a happy medium. One big topic that needs looking at specifically is PPM. This system was still in beta when the game shut down, so it never really graduated properly to the live servers, and never received any follow-up balance passes.

 

There are numerous issues right now, such as the interaction it has with different types of recharge bonuses and AoEs, which causes the system to be unintuitive (slotting for recharge can make a power… less good!) in some areas and not well balanced in other areas (many procs are very strong in AoEs and very weak in single targets). 

 

Along with improving general game balance there’s a secondary benefit to cleaning up PPM and procs: it will allow us to continue building new enhancement sets with new and unique procs and set bonuses.

 

We’ve got no firm plans to discuss just yet, but it is a key area we will be looking at in the future.

 

---

 

Herm....  What have I heard and seen about Procs?

• Best Farming Builds, massive use of Procs.
• Lots of talk about "Proc bombing...."
• Lots of complaints whenever certain powers (like Dual Pistols' Suppressive Fire) get Base Recharge Reductions.

Trying to figure out Procs.  Herm....  Complex.  Have asked a lot of questions, still unsure.  Seems to be a knife-edge whether it's worth it.  Except if there's a lot of Procs.  Especially Damage Procs.

 

But a lot of Procs would prevent pursuing other build goals.  Also seems wrong, a Superhero Game implementation error.

 

I don't Proc-bomb when I design and implement builds.  Very rarely got to 3 in one power, never more, most often 1 or none.  Often remove Procs to aid otherwise.

 

What else have I read about Procs....

 

 

I've been affected directly by changes to the game.  I'm still doing re-builds due to i27 Page 5 changes, but I like being able to take the T1 or T2 of a Secondary at L1.  And other changes, example to Powersets, some I like, others I don't, but that's true for most Players I would think.  I think the overall effect of what the current Devs are doing is quite good.

 

I want City of Heroes on Homecoming to be a sustainable healthy game.  That's the goal of the Devs too.

 

What else....  Ah, yes!  Whispers from behind the curtain....

 

Some important fixes, improvements to the game, cannot be done due to concerns about how the current PPM system would interact with them.  There is a fear that things will get worse in other ways if these fixes go through.

 

So these fixes get put off for now.  Including a major fix to a whole AT.

 

Some day the APROCALYPSE will come.  It will be a rebalance of the Proc System.  It is a necessary change.

 

I think the long amount of time since that mention in 2020 just indicates that this is a very major change that needs to be done properly when it comes.

 

 

when there is finally movement it will be epic

[macskull]

1 hour ago, DougGraves said:

I suppose when facts and logic are against you, I suppose ad hominen attacks are what you have to go with.

To date, there has been a complete lack of "facts and logic" presented to explain why procs are a problem. The best argument I've heard re: procs is that the current PPM system is confusing and counterintuitive, and I do agree with that, but that is a problem that can be solved without sweeping changes. The argument that procs are too powerful and need to be toned down in the interest of game balance? Nah.

 

P.S., calling a group of people unreasonable isn't an ad hominem attack, or really an attack at all.

[Indystruck]

6 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

The problem at the moment is that the end game in particular is too easy. 

 

Procs are a symptom and part of the problem. They are symptom, because controls and a lot of support is not necessary in most high end content. Damage is the king, queen, and dictator for life.

 

Well, yeah, and procing affects control-based and support-based sets the most, because Controllers and Defenders have to lean on that to do more damage. A blanket proc change is gonna make the underplayed worse while not affecting the top by very much with one or two exceptions.

[Lunar Ronin]

FWIW, a bit of a history lesson on the development of PPM can be found here.  As noted by @DreadShinobi in that thread twelve years ago (wow, do I feel old now), is that one of the major issues with PPM is that it kills the viability of the Agility and Spiritual Alpha abilities.  There's also nothing in-game that makes this apparent.

[macskull]

19 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

FWIW, a bit of a history lesson on the development of PPM can be found here.  As noted by @DreadShinobi in that thread twelve years ago (wow, do I feel old now), is that one of the major issues with PPM is that it kills the viability of the Agility and Spiritual Alpha abilities.  There's also nothing in-game that makes this apparent.

One of the major issues with PPM as it is currently implemented, anyways. People think that PPM was an I24 thing, but PPM-based procs already existed in the live game from cash shop enhancements, and those just used base recharge. I24 changed this initially to "modified recharge" (which included both slotted and global recharge) until it was pointed out that including global recharge would result in undesirable performance changes while teamed with certain support sets. I don't think the current system is bad, it's just that the game has zero explanation of how the system actually works so you have to rely on outside calculators and spreadsheets to do the math. If the game explained it somewhere, I don't think it would be a big deal.

Edited April 12 by macskull

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

One of the major issues with PPM as it is currently implemented, anyways. People think that PPM was an I24 thing, but PPM-based procs already existed in the live game from cash shop enhancements, and those just used base recharge. I24 changed this initially to "modified recharge" (which included both slotted and global recharge) until it was pointed out that including global recharge would result in undesirable performance changes while teamed with certain support sets. I don't think the current system is bad, it's just that the game has zero explanation of how the system actually works so you have to rely on outside calculators and spreadsheets to do the math. If the game explained it somewhere, I don't think it would be a big deal.

there is a wiki page that explains this    it is not explained how increasing a cones radius +range through enhancers, set bonuses or alphas affects the proc.  i use a lot of cones

 

Procs Per Minute - Unofficial Homecoming Wiki

Edited April 12 by Snarky

[wjrasmussen]

Just now, Snarky said:

I would love to see a HC wiki page just explaining PROCs, the math, the various calculations, and the common strategies (glob rech etc) and the effects. 

 

right now looking at procs is like buying a used car.  

Before we do anything we procs. Heck forget changing procs.  Let's get Brutes back to the way Snarky likes them.  That is more important.  Then, look into nerfing regen.

[Snarky]

4 minutes ago, wjrasmussen said:

Before we do anything we procs. Heck forget changing procs.  Let's get Brutes back to the way Snarky likes them.  That is more important.  Then, look into nerfing regen.

i might, might, get back on my dark/dark brute if they unscrewed the AT.  this would probably involve 1) a slight adjustment in Fury cap.  AND changing the Brute ATO+Fury to anything not laughably stupid.  This will never happen.  Brute is parked.

[MoonSheep]

8 hours ago, Crysis said:

dunno, I’ve many MM’s who are more effective than /Regen scrappers and I’ve many of those also.

 

perhaps

 

but when i’m recruiting on a team and i see the person i’ve invited is a mastermind, it’s like asking a mate to come to the pub for a pint and he turns up with his wife and 4 children who are running all over the place 

[Snarky]

2 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

perhaps

 

but when i’m recruiting on a team and i see the person i’ve invited is a mastermind, it’s like asking a mate to come to the pub for a pint and he turns up with his wife and 4 children who are running all over the place 

MMs are quite powerful.  Two things keep me off them.  I am not a fan of pets in general and really not a fan of MM pets.  Any customization of pets would work.  Dark is my go to.  I just do not get necromancy.  Where did the two grave knights and a lich cone from?  Are we in D&D?  A Lich?   Do you know about those things?   Give me zombies more zombies and a big zombie.  Give me zombies, black shadow dogs and the strange spook from Dark Corr.  But….  I have to make a backstory for a super.  I cant work with that.  
 

But anyways MM are very powerful.  As I understand it this performance hit the toilet at about TinPex onwards.  But the journey through 50 they are quite good.  

[Videra]

5 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Something which could be dealt with by adjusting other powers upward, Fire Blast downward, or both.

 

Nerf proc ain't happening, but the "problem" advanced is easily dealt with.

 

Lmao do you know how long it takes our powers devs to buff one set? Literal years, because they think they have to do a full-throated rework instead of the old, reliable solution of 'Number Go Up'.