How do we fail new players?

[tidge]

4 minutes ago, MeltingPenguins said:

Hi, hello new player here, maybe I could throw in my two cents:

 

The game is fun so far (highest character is at level 12 now), but what I found a little frustrating are these bits:

• The chat and how to filter it: I still don't know if it is possible to filter NPC dialogue that's not relevant to a mission from the chat, or open a global chat that only shows player messages (outside of Help)

 

You can right-click on tabs (even ones you have added) to edit what appears in what tabs.

 

I tend to have a dedicated tab that includes cutscene dialogue, npc dialogue, system and rewards... removing those things from the other tabs.

Edited June 6 by tidge

[MeltingPenguins]

21 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

You can right-click on tabs (even ones you have added) to edit what appears in what tabs.

 

I tend to have a dedicated tab that includes cutscene dialogue, npc dialogue, system and rewards... removing those things from the other tabs.

ooooh 😮 I didn't know that (obviously) thanks.

But yeah, something to learn that ingame would be awesome?

[shortguy on indom]

• REFRESHING... AS SOON AS A 'NOOB' POSTS A QUESTION, HELP IS GIVEN.  WHAT A NOVEL IDEA!
• NOOB THREAD STICKY... WHERE ALL THE GAME EXPERTS IN THIER PARTICULAR "FIELDS" COULD PUT FORTH THEIR KNOWLEDGE....AND ANSWER THE NOOB.
• BUT WOULD IT WORK?
• "ANSWER THE NOOB" SOUNDS BETTER FOR A THREAD NAME TO ME.
• BUT AT WHAT COST?
• CAN YOU DIG ITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT??????????????????????????
• OR NOT.

[cranebump]

2 hours ago, MeltingPenguins said:

Hi, hello new player here, maybe I could throw in my two cents:

 

The game is fun so far (highest character is at level 12 now), but what I found a little frustrating are these bits:

• The chat and how to filter it: I still don't know if it is possible to filter NPC dialogue that's not relevant to a mission from the chat, or open a global chat that only shows player messages (outside of Help)

You can edit your channels to feature whatever text you want to see (right click in the window; choose "Edit Tab;" delete what you don't want; you can also custom name the window).

 

For example, my Global chat has Broadcast , Local, and LFG (I delete everything else from that window). I maintain Team chat alone, along with PMs (yellow text) in a the window underneath Global  the "Chat" window). I also have a window for General messages (green text) and (usually) a sep one for Rewards.

 

You can also create custom chat windows for such things as NPC Dialog (blue text) and Clues. I maintain NPC chatter all alone in a single window, that I keep pulled to the side during some missions (since you'll get a heads up on attacks when you see new text pops, like "Get them!"). I always have a dedicated Clues box off to the side, as well. Only issue is that is that you have to clear an arc to clear the clue (or drop the contact to clear it). I also keep a sep League chat for when I join those. For these click on an unused number next to "Tab" (above your Global window). When it opens, edit it to be whatever you want it to be by adding the channels you desire.

 

And I see I was way late on this (read ALL the messages, Crane).

Edited June 6 by cranebump

[ZemX]

44 minutes ago, tidge said:

Trap or opportunity for learning? It's hard for me to recall my feels from the earliest days of Live w.r.t. slotting

 

Oddly enough, as bad as my memory usually is, I remember this one vividly.  I was about level 20 on my first character since joining HC and in Faultline, standing in front of the vendor near the trainer.

 

I'd just run out of money to buy SOs.

 

So I did a Google search, probably something to the effect, "How do I earn money in CoH Homecoming?" and found out about several methods, the easiest and fastest of which looked like buying converters at the reward vendor and selling them on the auction house for around 70k a pop.   Reward Merits?  Oh... you mean all these things I've been collecting for running story arcs?

 

I was literally already a CoH millionaire and didn't know it.   Haven't had a single problem buying enhancements since.

[cranebump]

The mention of DOs/SOs got me to thinking:

Feels like it's so easy to get cash these days that staying in DOs for early levels (if you wanted to do that) would be fairly easy, even starting out from scratch. Explore Merits=converters=cash. Sell your first orange drop. If one wanted to go that route, of course. If you follow the exploration tips, you can get 5 Merits a zone. You can get the first one by hitting the wiki and copy-pasting the Nav point. I spend an hour with a toon who had fly picking up Hollows, KR, Steel and Sky. After getting AP and Echo:Galaxy, I had 30 merits. I KEPT them, mind you, but, if I were starting fresh, I could easily turn that around for some $$. New folks would also do well to run the invention tutorial, learn the ins and outs, then craft and sell the more common IOs, once they get them. They don't net a lot, but you can turn over a mil here and there.

 

Tagent: I'm a big fan of the new explore system, not just for the merits, but because you see the city.

 

Speaking of: Booms. Booms really needs to be fleshed out, a la Faultline and new AP. Push back the Council. Put a stop to all those Clocks.

 

But that's a different can of worm food...

[Ghost]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

 

You can right-click on tabs (even ones you have added) to edit what appears in what tabs.

 

I tend to have a dedicated tab that includes cutscene dialogue, npc dialogue, system and rewards... removing those things from the other tabs.

Quit telling him/her how to play!!!

Everyone should be able to play however they want, even if they have no idea about all the options they have!

 

🙂

 

[Herotu]

What's wrong with powerlevelling to 50 then doing all the skipped content through Ouroboros?

[Sanguinesun]

2 hours ago, Herotu said:

What's wrong with powerlevelling to 50 then doing all the skipped content through Ouroboros?

 

Not a damn thing if someone enjoys it.  The contentiousness comes from others who simply wish to impose their frat-style expected.. nay demanded initiation of how to join in in playing the game their way and filtering out those that dont match their "good people".

[Herotu]

1 minute ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

Not a damn thing if someone enjoys it.  The contentiousness comes from others who simply wish to impose their frat-style expected.. nay demanded initiation of how to join in in playing the game their way and filtering out those that dont match their "good people".

Well that's BS ofc. People can do what they want, BUT if new players aren't being sufficiently informed that they have options, that's a different story.

[Display Name]

I had a player doing a mish "naturally" (ie: not a Flashback) advertising the need for help in LFG.  I had my healer logged in at the time and offered to help.  It turns out, the player was getting their hiney handed to them and were very discouraged.  They didn't know how to create builds for their toon(s) effectively and were literally about to quit for good.  I asked them not to quit and to give me a little time to show them why.

 

We finished the arc and then I introduced him to a supergroup some of my toons are members of.  The support in the group is pretty freakin' awesome and I showed him how to join (the toon I was on was not a member.)  He joined and within a day or so I saw him posting in the Discord and getting the support he needed.

 

I've also directed other players to that group and like to think that I've helped them.  But I'm pretty sure that I helped that person.

 

I do other things too but that's the only example I wanted to share.  I'm not *always* glad to help but I'm *often* glad to help.  Currently, I'm still trying to get the sixteen trillion+ badges in this game.  No thanks to the latest updates and events!  (kidding!  thank you!)

 

I didn't post the name of the supergroup because I'm of the opinion that if someone wants to know they'll DM me.  And the rest of you couldn't care less and are probably mildly irritated by shameless recruitment plugs.

[Sanguinesun]

2 hours ago, Herotu said:

Well that's BS ofc. People can do what they want, BUT if new players aren't being sufficiently informed that they have options, that's a different story.

 

1. The game's required knowledge to play, even fundamentally is a steep learning curve due to both the live and HC feature creep that has occurred for 2 decades now., that neither Live nor the HC devs have devoted extensive resources to improving that QoL aspect of the game.  This has of course lead to retention issues and will in the future.   Some who dip their toes into elitist thinking expect everyone's knowledge should be high at all time(lets remember some folks here arent youngin's anymore and forgetting things happens too.  This is also feeding into this sort of every few months complaints(rant) threads about x person not knowing how to play.

 

2. Players spend more time collectively just playing the game vs mentoring/teaching others how to play or doing so consistently. Not everyone is wiling or capable of helping others play. This isnt a condemnation of their participation with the community either. Its just that some just arent.   But to be clear, Im also not referring to those who willfully and intentionally avoid/refuse/condemn helping others know how to play the game either....

 

3. "You can lead a horse to water but you cant make them drink".  Not everyone is willing to make informed choices either.  Over the years when I've offered for example to explain things to help someone, they've turned it down for a myriad of reasons.

 

4. Not everyone one learns the same way is another factor and that affects point 3 too(ie they refuse because of the type/manner the information is presented to them).  Some learn well from reading, others from vids(someone mentioned they felt it to be important to make how-to vids for trials and task force vids to help others for example), 

 

5.  There's no time limit to learning.  Some again who dip their toes into elitist thinking have expectations that if something hasnt been learned by XYZ point in play progression that they are then entitled to be reprimanded by said elitists and their ilk vs giving compassion to help them to learn. Then those elitists come to the forums to make a rant about it with an agenda to justify removing/nerfing/condemning forms of play that do not conform to their feelings on how the game should be played.  Basically, there's no right way for em to defend the wrong then then when they do that nonsense. To those individuals (dare I also say groups really...), their frustrations stem more from those folks they dont deem "good people" to not have been filtered out sooner from playing they game.  

 

 

So all these points and more conspire to create the situation that people are both complaining on and seeking "solutions" to.  But until the game undergoes a fundamental change, oversimplification, and more to where the content creep of 2 decades would change(ie likely never), just help individuals who wish to learn, make your guides, your videos, and more as you feel may help.  People have been doing that again for 2 decades now and that too should also bridge the knowledge gap that then, as now, there still will be concerns voiced on the forums about it all.   Im not saying that from a futility standpoint. Im saying it from the stand point of the challenge of it being due to a game that essentially continues on and requires more learned/understood and with the constant dynamics of people engaging with it.. 

Edited June 7 by Sanguinesun

[golstat2003]

On 6/4/2024 at 1:04 PM, Eiko-chan said:

"Player generated"? So something that developers used to do is now on their customers to do? 

 

Some games come with digital versions of these manuals btw.

[Greycat]

23 hours ago, Neiska said:

 

As far as the "but, but, new players shouldn't level fast!"

First off, what BUSINESS is that of yours? This is a open sandbox game. Don't yuck their yum. Let them build their sandcastle THEIR way. Some of you act as if people who are helping other people get money, or exp, are mustache twirling bond villains here. None of these people helping them level, are dragging the new folks into the AE by the ankle. There are no screams of torment echoing from the AE. There is no busload of orphans moving mountains of people into the AE. But by some of the theatrics here on the forums, you would think that was the case.

 

Secondly, I would like to point out that these new people, are choosing, CHOOSING, to do this.

 

 

Cutting out a bunch of this to focus here.

 

New people are "choosing" to do this because of the cultures of *other* games where "the game begins at (insert end level here, and move it every major expansion.)" Where you *must* raid and do dungeons to get the Super Slashy Sword of Slashiness +3 (because you're a noob if you only have +2, why are you even IN the game?) so they can get on the NEXT "dungeon" and get the Shiny Helmet of Bonkery which they'll need for the NEXT raid, hope you get lucky on the drop (and that Steve over there doesn't see it because "GIMME THAT THAT SHOULD BE MINE!") ...  and  in general people aren't telling them otherwise.  And frankly that we're often *saying* "Eh, do DFB with 2xp and you'll get levels" like that's what everyone needs *right away.*

 

Can you really call it a choice they're making when the new person *doesn't know what the actual choice is?*

 

As far as why it's anyone's business?

 

There's a reason some people (not me) use "AE babies" as a near-curse word. (Phrase. Whatever.) Because they get to 50, they get to the more difficult groups where stuff's phasing, draining, teleporting around before holding them, have 5 minute stuns, can see through stealth, savages defenses... and they're asking what these colored round things that drop are and how to use them. Or how to get out of Atlas Park. They don't know that if you play the Hollows, Faultline or Croatoa (for instance) that hey, they're all related stories, and if you do them *all* you get bonus merits - or what merits are, for that matter. (Other than some vague "buy converters and sell them on the market" without much info on THAT.)

 

 

And it's not just "playing the game, getting introduced to the lore and getting powers." Even DFB has you *meeting* people and seeing other powers and getting some idea of how things can work together, as opposed to sitting at the door while someone runs into a cave and sets a bunch of stuff on fire. I can't think of the last farm I was in that wasn't among friends that had more conversation than "wait here," "mobs coming" and "reset." Certainly not "Are you new?" Maybe the occasional "nice costume/bio."

 

Honestly, it's not even saying farming itself is bad - if someone saw someone new and said "You know what, sure, I'll farm you - to 20, don't get a 2xp booster because you'll miss out on getting cash, at 20 you'll probably have enough powers for things to be 'interesting to play,' and you'll have content you can do - Posi, Yin, Faultline (well, half of it,) even a costume mission" - I don't think anyone (ok, someone would, but far fewer) would complain. Heck, even a "New players SG" to help guide them along and such, including guaranteeing running these things. (One of those "if I had the time and energy....") They'd *meet* people - which, Idunno, would make the rest of the trip to 50 more interesting and fun? - and not just be dropped off at 50 with a bunch of salvage and stuff in their inventory they have no clue about. (And no INF because... 2xp booster.)

 

After that? Yes, they have the information - at least more of it - to tell if they just want to get rushed to 50 (maybe raids are just their thing,) or to some other level because they found stuff in *that* range fun, or not at all. And they have people to talk about it *with* that they met doing other stuff before having a "full" character dropped on them to figure out without experiencing anything... and having people get frustrated with them because the team's waiting 10 minutes for them to figure out what a "cim" is they're supposed to "itf" at and how they get there.

[Ukase]

On 6/5/2024 at 5:54 PM, Sanguinesun said:

One of the more nefarious examples of this is attaining influence where people intentionally provide inefficient ways to try to attain influence in the game. Worse intentionally even causing those players to have to struggle/lose more in the long run.

Could you elaborate on this? 
The most inefficient way of attaining influence suggests there is a "most efficient", doesn't it? One could argue marketing is the most efficient. But you don't get xp from marketing, no matter how good you are at doing so. I'm a bit obtuse, so not real sure what you're saying here. 

[battlewraith]

Typical Chat you see in this game:

 

AE farm: 

 

"Thanks for the invite!"

"Reset"

 

PI +4 radios:

 

"Thanks for the invite"

Mission ends. Waits for next waypoint.

 

BAF

 

"PUSH THE BUTTON!"

"Boobs!"

"team 1 go N" etc.

"Watch the health!"

"Stay on team if you want to go again."

 

Granted the BAF comments are truly Shakespearian compared to a farm. 

 

A so-called AE baby needs to understand how teams work. How entering a mission or trial works. How to qualify for participating in certain things (e.g having an alpha slot unlocked).

And they need to be able to read chat and follow simple instructions (something traditional players are often bad at).

 

If they can do these things, it really does not matter if they don't understand their powers or how the combat mechanics work. The farmer kills everything. The radio team nukes stuff before you can even get a hit in. The roided out BAF participants are in danger of, at most, failing to get a badge. 

 

The game is not hard. The learning curve is deep because the layers of ad hoc noodley game from different eras of development. Aesthetics and writing that hit hard in the early 2000s probably doesn't have the same effect on a contemporary audience 20 years later. The (dare I say it) boomer take on this is the same as it was at the beginning--people that want to skip content are lazy kids that will just wander in and get bored and cause irritations and then leave. I'm going to say the opposite--people come in and see a quaint game that is obviously a grindfest at the core. And they quite reasonably want to see where it all leads before committing a serious chunk of their leisure time to engaging with it.

 

[cranebump]

45 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

The game is not hard. The learning curve is deep because the layers of ad hoc noodley game from different eras of development. Aesthetics and writing that hit hard in the early 2000s probably doesn't have the same effect on a contemporary audience 20 years later. The (dare I say it) boomer take on this is the same as it was at the beginning--people that want to skip content are lazy kids that will just wander in and get bored and cause irritations and then leave. I'm going to say the opposite--people come in and see a quaint game that is obviously a grindfest at the core. And they quite reasonably want to see where it all leads before committing a serious chunk of their leisure time to engaging with it.

 

While I find this an apt description of the situation, I'd like to point out that the youngest Boomers would be around 62 years old. So I don't think all of the "lazy kids" comments come from a swath of sextagenerians (and older) playing this game, mainly because I'm thinking the average age here has got to be lower than that. Surely we can spread some of this "get off my lawn!" love around (you out there, Gen X)?:-)

 

In all seriousness, though, I guess my question is whether "where it all leads" is only about reaching Incarnate status. If there are multiple modes and approaches to play, then wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that there are also multiple "end points?"

 

Mainly, though, there's this: skipping straight to 50 feels a like fast forwarding to the end of Citizen Kane. You know what Rosebud is, but you have no idea what that means. Not the best analogy, I suppose, but, in keeping with it, you'd then find yourself with a gillion questions, some of which people who've watched the movie all the way through may or may not answer. You'll also find yourself being rudely told to go back and watch the damned thing.

 

I think you've just caused yourself more frustration doing it that way. But, hey--you saved yourself 1 hour and 56 minutes, so...grats.

Edited June 7 by cranebump

[cranebump]

Whoops. Double post.

Edited June 7 by cranebump

[battlewraith]

12 minutes ago, cranebump said:

While I find this an apt description of the situation, I'd like to point out that the youngest Boomers would be around 62 years old. So I don't think all of the "lazy kids" comments come from a swath of sextagenerians (and older) playing this game, mainly because I'm thinking the average age here has got to be lower than that. Surely we can spread some of this "get off my lawn!" love around (you out there, Gen X)?:-)

 

In all seriousness, though, I guess my question is whether "where it all leads" is only about reaching Incarnate status. If there are multiple modes and approaches to play, then wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that there are also multiple "end points?"

 

Mainly, though, there's this: skipping straight to 50 feels a like fast forwarding to the end of Citizen Kane. You know what Rosebud is, but you have no idea what that means. Not the best analogy, I suppose, but, in keeping with it, you'd then find yourself with a gillion questions, some of which people who've watched the movie all the way through may or may not answer. You'll also find yourself being rudely told to go back and watch the damned thing.

 

I think you've just caused yourself more frustration doing it that way. But, hey--you saved yourself 1 hour and 56 minutes, so...grats.

 

It's more about a boomer state of mind. I expect that most of the routine posters here are GenX or millenials, but a lot of the nostalgia-driven discussions here remind me of those "don't become your parents" Geico ads. 

 

For a lot of people that are still playing this game, it is something of a masterpiece. I'm not here to dispute that. But I think there is a problem when those people insist that the things that they adore about it are THE defining features the new players should be coached to recognize. Citizen Kane was remarkable for it's artful use of a bunch of, for the time, non standard storytelling and cinematic techniques. Those techniques are now commonplace in media. It's entirely possible that contemporary viewers would simply find it boring and want their time back. Likewise, new gamers might have an interest in some aspect of the superhero gamplay but not care about the lowbie grind, or the lore.

[Neiska]

9 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

Cutting out a bunch of this to focus here.

 

New people are "choosing" to do this because of the cultures of *other* games where "the game begins at (insert end level here, and move it every major expansion.)" Where you *must* raid and do dungeons to get the Super Slashy Sword of Slashiness +3 (because you're a noob if you only have +2, why are you even IN the game?) so they can get on the NEXT "dungeon" and get the Shiny Helmet of Bonkery which they'll need for the NEXT raid, hope you get lucky on the drop (and that Steve over there doesn't see it because "GIMME THAT THAT SHOULD BE MINE!") ...  and  in general people aren't telling them otherwise.  And frankly that we're often *saying* "Eh, do DFB with 2xp and you'll get levels" like that's what everyone needs *right away.*

 

Can you really call it a choice they're making when the new person *doesn't know what the actual choice is?*

 

As far as why it's anyone's business?

 

There's a reason some people (not me) use "AE babies" as a near-curse word. (Phrase. Whatever.) Because they get to 50, they get to the more difficult groups where stuff's phasing, draining, teleporting around before holding them, have 5 minute stuns, can see through stealth, savages defenses... and they're asking what these colored round things that drop are and how to use them. Or how to get out of Atlas Park. They don't know that if you play the Hollows, Faultline or Croatoa (for instance) that hey, they're all related stories, and if you do them *all* you get bonus merits - or what merits are, for that matter. (Other than some vague "buy converters and sell them on the market" without much info on THAT.)

 

 

And it's not just "playing the game, getting introduced to the lore and getting powers." Even DFB has you *meeting* people and seeing other powers and getting some idea of how things can work together, as opposed to sitting at the door while someone runs into a cave and sets a bunch of stuff on fire. I can't think of the last farm I was in that wasn't among friends that had more conversation than "wait here," "mobs coming" and "reset." Certainly not "Are you new?" Maybe the occasional "nice costume/bio."

 

Honestly, it's not even saying farming itself is bad - if someone saw someone new and said "You know what, sure, I'll farm you - to 20, don't get a 2xp booster because you'll miss out on getting cash, at 20 you'll probably have enough powers for things to be 'interesting to play,' and you'll have content you can do - Posi, Yin, Faultline (well, half of it,) even a costume mission" - I don't think anyone (ok, someone would, but far fewer) would complain. Heck, even a "New players SG" to help guide them along and such, including guaranteeing running these things. (One of those "if I had the time and energy....") They'd *meet* people - which, Idunno, would make the rest of the trip to 50 more interesting and fun? - and not just be dropped off at 50 with a bunch of salvage and stuff in their inventory they have no clue about. (And no INF because... 2xp booster.)

 

After that? Yes, they have the information - at least more of it - to tell if they just want to get rushed to 50 (maybe raids are just their thing,) or to some other level because they found stuff in *that* range fun, or not at all. And they have people to talk about it *with* that they met doing other stuff before having a "full" character dropped on them to figure out without experiencing anything... and having people get frustrated with them because the team's waiting 10 minutes for them to figure out what a "cim" is they're supposed to "itf" at and how they get there.

 

To begin, I would like to acknowledge and thank you for the tone of your argument. It is gratefully received, and I shall attempt to do the same.

 

1. New people are "choosing" to do this because....

-But you don't 'know' that. You don't know for absolute certain, "why." And I would argue, the "why" is irrelevant. Because as I stated before, it isn't our business on "why", but also because people have a right to make wrong choices. It's how we grow as people. Imagine a moment, you were back playing on live. And some random veteran just swooped in and made the choice for you. Decided your journey, claiming to know what was better, for your own good. I don't think you would appreciate someone speaking and deciding on your behalf, but that is what you are effectively doing. Swooping in and deciding on someone else's behalf what to do, where to go, how to do it. You are deciding "their" journey.  I know that I wouldn't like that one bit. Even if it turns out they are right, because it really is kind of taking away someone's free will, in a sense. You can't look at all options, and then remove the options that you don't happen to agree with, and then claim to be the moral high ground in the argument, after taking away one of their choices. Even if it's a "bad" choice, it's still "their" choice to make. And just because it's a choice you don't agree with, doesn't make it "bad" either. It's simply the choice you wouldn't have made.

 

-I do agree that game design have changed a lot over the years. They are faster paced now for certain. I don't know if you played Everquest when it first came out, but that game is the time sink to end all time sinks. You are talking years of progression per character there. It might have taken you over a year to get your epic weapon, and many people never got theirs. But does this affect new players decisions? Who can say? I would be surprised if it didn't affect it somehow, but I would suspect it varies person to person. And again, is irrelevant. 

 

2. New people at 50 don't know...

-Again, you don't know they are "AE babies." I have met people in their 30s and 40s who didn't have a single enhancement slotted. How? I asked them to take a snip of their powers sheet and send it to me on discord. Using myself for an example here, I have played the game for nearly 5 years now. I have 3 accounts, and about 4 pages of level 50s on each, most of them are T3's, a few are full T4's. And I have never done those zones you mention - Hallows, Faultline, Croatoa. (I tend to play almost exclusively Redside.) And the merits are irrelevant to me. At a guess, I have 5000 merits across my characters, and I don't think I've ever really spent any. I simply never needed to. But my point is, is that just because a player doesn't know something at any level doesn't mean they are "AE babies." You are presuming that. People can very well play "the legit" way (in some peoples minds anyway) and still be entirely confused on what's going on or what to do. The "AE baby" argument is casting everyone involved in the WORST possible light. When, speaking as someone who does actually power level people on occasion, I can faithfully tell you that 90% of people getting power leveled, are not new players. How do I know? I actually ask and have full conversations while farming. If anything, "new people getting power leveled" is the minority. I can recall only a handful of people who claimed to be "new." (To be fair here, I don't "know" that they were NOT new either, but only what they claimed. But at least I asked.) And just because a person asks questions, doesn't mean they are new, or were power leveled, or anything. They could be a returning player who took a break for a while. They may simply not remember. It could be any number of reasons. 

 

3. You can't remove one option you dislike and claim it's giving people choice. A fairer statement would be -

New Player: "Hey what do I do?"

Old Player: "You can run open world content, get merits and see the story, and meet some of the characters. Or if there are a lot of things you want to try, you can be speed leveled."

 

A much fairer statement to my mind, giving the merits of both, and it need not even be either/or either. I am sure everyone would agree that there are "slow spots" during the leveling process where farming certainly helps the leveling along. But I view the entire argument of "lets remove their option" more about control of how other people play, than any context of "it's in their own best interest." Because that infers that people cannot think for themselves or have a right to make their own decisions. And I will never agree that either of those are good arguments. Even if someone makes a "bad" decision, its important they have the opportunity to look back see why it was bad later on and grow from it.

 

Anyway, I do thank you again for the tone of your reply. I agree on some parts, disagree on others.

Edited June 7 by Neiska

[Greycat]

I'm getting some of what you're saying on "A vet is making the choice for them," but ... I only sort of half agree on that, and I still hold that the new player doesn't *know* what the choices really are (and they're kind of who we're concentrating on here.) If a vet says "You're new, get in the farm and get to 50" (essentially, doubt they're using the exact words,) well, that kind of fits perceptions from other games - and that is making the choice for them.

 

But they still don't *know* that COH doesn't "begin at endgame" like so many other games. They aren't being given that information. They've got contacts - hey, that guy over there has a coin over their head - though they're a good jog from the starting area, blueside, it's easy to miss Habashy, and you don't see the old origin contacts since they're in the lower level of City Hall. That information is not immediately obvious.

 

Honestly, as someone who makes new alts, the new character experience kind of sucks, since you have a ton of "just frigging click to get this out of my way" windows thrown at you, and that *really* needs to be streamlined.

 

Next bit, I think you focused way too much on the term "AE babies." It doesn't matter the level that someone new gets PL'd to - and I also didn't say that the majority of people in farms are new players. Hell, *I* get farmed - but then again, I'm also doing it with knowledge that, for instance, I *hate* playing a VEAT to 24 just to essentially be told "Everything you've done to now doesn't matter, you MUST RESPEC NOW." (just on top of the annoyance of having to take the time right then to do it. You can't pick another power, you must respec before you do anything else.) I just get PL'd into the mid-20s, do the respec, and *then* consider my character to be starting out.

 

Also, it's not just "not knowing something," it's the very obvious "not knowing pretty much ANYTHING other than what the inside of a farm looks like."

 

Last, I'm not sure where you're seeing me advocating removing an option of any sort, so... I'm not anti-farming. I'll do it myself on occasion. I'm more anti-uninformedness... I suppose.

 

(Shortening the reply because the conversation's sparked a suggestion idea, so...)

Edited June 7 by Greycat

[Neiska]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

Last, I'm not sure where you're seeing me advocating removing an option of any sort, so... I'm not anti-farming. I'll do it myself on occasion. I'm more anti-uninformedness... I suppose.

 

My previous reply was rhetorical, by "you" I was not meaning you personally, but by whomever might hold that position or opinion.

 

And it is fine we disagree on some things. I respect your opinion. I just disagree on the extent of "new lvl 50s are clueless" and feel its been exaggerated quite a bit here on the forums, also with the "new people don't know there's another option" when it is pushed at them from every angle. If anything, they may not know what the AE is. I mean there is a literal bread-crumb trail leading them by the nose to story content, when the AE you have to literally explain to them what it is, what it does, how to use it, how to get there, etc. I would say there are already tools aplenty to push new players to open world and let's call them "polite barriers" to keep them from the AE. If they don't ask what a farm or AE even is, they might likely never even know. So I think you might have the "which option do they know about" rather backwards.

 

And just to clarify, I did not say you personally was anti farm, but many of these forums are, even in this thread there are suggestions to punish or restrict people who power level in some way, not just in this topic but elsewhere. When AE has already been changed multiple times already, all 100% to make it more tedious, difficult, etc. There are certainly more "farming BAD" voices than "play your way" voices here. You don't see post after post after post in the forums bashing any other playstyle, just the AE/Farmers. But as they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease I suppose, so maybe the Farmers need more of a presence here on the forums perhaps, so it doesn't look so one sided.

 

Best wishes.

 

PS - I am unsure it has been discussed or asked before, but I do wonder if its possible to separate the different shards by p2w/start and AE stuff. As in -

Shard 1 - No p2w or AE

Shard 2 - p2w, but no AE

Shard 3 - no p2w, but AE

Shard 4 - p2w and AE

 

That way everyone can have their pick. The purists can have their playground, others can have theirs, and so on. I am not sure if this is even possible, or if the HC staff would consider such a thing. But it's at least a thought and an effort for a compromise. Everyone could have their own game environment of choice and stop the bickering on the farming/AE topic already.

Edited June 7 by Neiska
Added a PS

[biostem]

38 minutes ago, Neiska said:

PS - I am unsure it has been discussed or asked before, but I do wonder if its possible to separate the different shards by p2w/start and AE stuff. As in

We do not need to further divide the playerbase.  What does need to be answered is to what extent, if any, the devs want to steer/encourage/mandate players toward particular playstyles.  As it stands, (and please keep in mind I'm not judging the morality of these approaches), farming/PL-ing are "encouraged" insofar as they provide the most rewards for the least effort/time investment.  If you want to direct players to other manners of play, you'd need, at the very least, comparable rewards...

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, Neiska said:

 

PS - I am unsure it has been discussed or asked before, but I do wonder if its possible to separate the different shards by p2w/start and AE stuff. As in -

Shard 1 - No p2w or AE

Shard 2 - p2w, but no AE

Shard 3 - no p2w, but AE

Shard 4 - p2w and AE

 

 

Practically speaking, no. Since you'd then have to take every update and test it against four different versions of the server - given how intertwined everything is. Plus the populations on the various servers are already (generally) established.

 

Now, if you wanted to spin up another *server* - as in not Homecoming - you can certainly disable those options. I know of at least one "throwback" server that killed those (and I think the auction house and some other things... might have just been handing out SOs) - but just doing one option on Indom, another on Torch, etc, no.

[Neiska]

3 hours ago, biostem said:

We do not need to further divide the playerbase.  

 

Oh, I agree. Mostly I was just wondering and musing. I don't actually expect that to be a solution, realistically, feasibly or otherwise.