yOu ShOuLD cHaNGe kNoCkBAck to KnoCKdoWN!

[Forager]

Been playing an energy blaster and it is the most fun I've ever had playing this game. I started as a Tanker, so I am aware of the list of problems knockback can pose on teams.

 

My current issue is I am not causing any of those problems, but I'm still getting the "advice" to change KB to KD.

 

I am sure this has been discussed many times. Does anyone have a short, succinct explanation that they have had success with? I'm not optimistic... as the person saying it rarely has any reasoning behind it. This is a reflexive thing people do sometimes, repeating conventional "wisdom" out of context.

 

 

 

[Zhym]

Quote

yOu ShOuLD cHaNGe kNoCkBAck to KnoCKdoWN!

Mot?  Is that you?

Edited July 2 by Zhym

[Clave Dark 5]

Anyone who has AoE or cone attacks will probably hate you for popping it unannounced (I generally don't, but have found myself recently "chagrined" to find myself playing with such a person).  It's just about as bad as Fold Space, which also confounds AoE players and tends to make each crowd you attack all about you.

 

Best advice is clear it with the team before the first fight, play solo, or find a group of friends to play with who won't get mad.

[Maelwys]

KB/KU/KD is a very viable means of damage mitigation.

Unfortunately KB is also a very viable means of annoying the crap out of your teammates; as Knockback powers cause positioning changes and Positioning changes mess with PBAoE, Targeted AoE and short-range (e.g. "melee") Single Target attacks.
 

Quote

Does anyone have a short, succinct explanation that they have had success with?

Personally I'd suggest something like "Roll up, Roll up, for this the amazing once-in-a-lifetime chance to see pixel-perfect pinball prowess in action!"

If your knockback abilities are honestly never causing any enemies to be moved out of range of any of your teammate's powers then more power to you; but you're in very distinguished company. I've teamed with exactly one player over the decades who has been able to leverage KB reliably without annoying any of the rest of their team (a PB who tended to hover at 90 degrees to whatever they were hitting and skipped most of their AoEs).

The recent AoE immobilise changes are fantastic, but they effectively convert KB into KD which is not what really you're looking for...

[PeregrineFalcon]

49 minutes ago, Forager said:

Does anyone have a short, succinct explanation that they have had success with?

"Thanks for the advice. I can't add a bunch of IOs right now, since I'm in the middle of a mission, but I'll do that in the future."

[ZemX]

36 minutes ago, Forager said:

as the person saying it rarely has any reasoning behind it

 

I find that hard to believe.  The "rarely" part, I mean.  i.e. Not saying there aren't busybodies out there who will get in your face over nothing, but they are not, in my experience, in any kind of majority.  Most people won't even notice what you are doing on a team and certainly won't complain about it unless it's getting in their way somehow.

[Excraft]

54 minutes ago, Forager said:

Does anyone have a short, succinct explanation that they have had success with?

 

Tell them thank you for the advice, then tell them to stick their advice where the sun doesn't shine.

[Oklahoman]

38 minutes ago, Forager said:

My current issue is I am not causing any of those problems, but I'm still getting the "advice" to change KB to KD.

 

We can be so helpful with our unsolicited advice, can't we?

 

You don't have to accept or even acknowledge any "advice" you get. Try leading a failed Hami or Triple Threat badge run and see all the advice you get! All the sudden, everyone becomes an expert on leading stuff. Look at the advice if you want to, see if you think it's helpful to you, and go from there. It sounds like you're pretty thoughtful about KB.

[Forager]

21 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Anyone who has AoE or cone attacks will probably hate you for popping it unannounced (I generally don't, but have found myself recently "chagrined" to find myself playing with such a person).  It's just about as bad as Fold Space, which also confounds AoE players and tends to make each crowd you attack all about you.

 

Best advice is clear it with the team before the first fight, play solo, or find a group of friends to play with who won't get mad.

 

I think maybe I wasn't clear.

 

My specific question: "Does anyone, who understands knockback, have a short, succinct explanation for people who do not understand knockback that are criticizing it?"

 

I'm not confident.

 

I am now very curious, though... You said in your best advice that I should clear it with the team before the first fight. Clear what?

[Triumphant]

I have some characters that use knockback to knockdown (I want to maximize my AOE effects).  Others, I don't (I just want to enjoy knocking things around like bowling pins).  If someone asks me to change the latter character to KB to KD, I just ignore them.  What, am I gonna stop to do it in the middle of the mission?  No.  If the leader wants me to do that, they should have stated "No knockback powers, please" in their recruit message in LFG channel.

 

If it really irritates the leader (and everyone else), they can always boot me from the team.  I have no objections to that.

 

The way I deal with other players using KB is I utilize combat teleport to run them down or holds to lock them in place.  It makes the game more challenging, yes.  It does mess with tanks pretty hard, yes.  But Tankers often think that this game is just about them.  That everything in combat should revolve around them and that the only tactic that should be considered is the one that utilizes the tank as an anchor to lock the mobs in place around them.

 

And yeah- that's a great tactic.  But it's not the only way to play the game.  Nor is doing the exact same thing every time, always what you want out of a game, even if it IS the most effective tactic.

 

I think this is really only a major issue in PUGs.  If you're part of a regular team or member of an established SG with internal rules of conduct, you can deal with this problem easily enough.  PUGs, on the other hand, are... PUGs.  You get what you get and you don't throw a fit.

 

All of the above is simply just my opinion, of course.

 

P.S.  Also, personally, I find flaming demon mastermind pets WAY MORE annoying and problematic than KB effects. 😝

[arcane]

37 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Anyone who has AoE or cone attacks will probably hate you for popping it unannounced (I generally don't, but have found myself recently "chagrined" to find myself playing with such a person).  It's just about as bad as Fold Space, which also confounds AoE players and tends to make each crowd you attack all about you.

 

Best advice is clear it with the team before the first fight, play solo, or find a group of friends to play with who won't get mad.

Using massive knockback is nothing like Fold Space. One is anathema to most good players and the other is meta / highly desirable to good players.

[Ravenplume]

One thing that players SHOULD understand about KB is that if you KB something into another group, it will aggro them.

 

Personally, I think it would be awesome if instead of the other group first powering up their buffs when one of their buddies flies through or lands on his arse in the middle of them, they should all do random /em score (1-10) before coming to join the party.

[Frozen Burn]

4 minutes ago, Ravenplume said:

One thing that players SHOULD understand about KB is that if you KB something into another group, it will aggro them.

 

Personally, I think it would be awesome if instead of the other group first powering up their buffs when one of their buddies flies through or lands on his arse in the middle of them, they should all do random /em score (1-10) before coming to join the party.

 

This is not true.  I've chain KB'd foes into other groups without them being aggro'd.  I've even killed that KB'd mob in the other group without the other group aggroing.  What aggros them is if your AOEs tags one of the other group members or someone goes chasing after KB'd foe.  

[Maelwys]

I heard if you stack the Mag high enough, the target will ricochet off its own character model and turn into a Big Red Ball... 

[Forager]

1 minute ago, Oklahoman said:

 It sounds like you're pretty thoughtful about KB.

 

Very. Thank you, sir.

[Lunar Ronin]

49 minutes ago, arcane said:

Using massive knockback is nothing like Fold Space. One is anathema to most good players and the other is meta / highly desirable to good players.

 

Just because something is "meta" doesn't make it obnoxious.  Fold Space on its own accord is fine, but just like knockback way too many people use it (and overuse it), without care and with wanton abandon.

 

One player repeatedly uses an AoE attack, knocking away mobs from a Scrapper or Stalker, causing the Scrapper or Stalker to move to continue the attack.

 

Another player Fold Spaces away a group of mobs a Scrapper or Stalker is already attacking, causing the Scrapper or Stalker to move to continue the attack.

 

I have frequently experienced both.  Just as annoying, just as obnoxious.

Edited July 1 by Lunar Ronin

[Greycat]

Some people just have a kneejerk "KB bad, turn it all to KD grrrr!" reaction.

 

This can be just from generally hearing "Knockback is bad!" or having bad experiences with people who used knockback poorly. (Or play melee and don't like the couple of powers that do that because they "have" to chase after the target - they'll be back, though, so...)

 

I've had people say something about knockback when I join the team with (say) a warshade - for instance, I did that with an ITF. The team leader learned very quickly that not only do I know how to handle my KB, but I can also... surprisingly... knock things *into* the tank or AOE pile that would otherwise have gotten away. Or shifted into Nova and was knocking stuff down all day. I basically got a "wow, I didn't know it could be that useful" from them.  Others I've had get very *insistent* that I completely change my slotting for them. Those, just walk away from. If they want to pay me real money to play for them, then I'll consider it. Then take the money and keep playing the way I know works.

 

Or... for an example of having good *and* bad on a team. The TPN trial - you know where you're clearing enemies from the consoles? I come in, knock the stragglers away from it and into melee out of range - console available to be taken! .... only to have someone *not* paying attention to what they're doing knock others *right back over.* They could have moved ever so slightly and driven the group into the mass of baddies getting killed, but they didn't and completely undid what I'd done.

 

Basically... when it comes to knockback, *you have to pay attention.* If it's single target? Consider the target "owned by you" if you're doing ST KB and kill it, don't move from one target to another. Don't do some AOE KB next to the tank or in the middle of the group (barring shoving more into a wall or something.) If you're just going to spam powers and mash buttons, do it on a powerset without KB. Because *that's* what gives it a bad reputation to some or reinforces the "it's all bad" impression.

 

 

40 minutes ago, Ravenplume said:

One thing that players SHOULD understand about KB is that if you KB something into another group, it will aggro them.

 

No, you won't. Unless it's got some sort of AOE debuff or you AOE the target while it's by the second group, they'll ignore it, just like they ignore them running by at 10% health while on fire.

[Greycat]

4 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

Just because something is "meta" doesn't make it obnoxious.  Fold Space on its own accord is fine, but just like knockback way too many people use it (and overuse it), without care and with wanton abandon.

 

One player repeatedly uses an AoE attack, knocking away mobs from a Scrapper or Stalker, causing the Scrapper or Stalker to move to continue the attack.

 

Another player Fold Spaces away a group of mobs a Scrapper or Stalker is already attacking, causing the Scrapper or Stalker to move to continue the attack.

 

I have frequently experienced both.  Just as annoying, just as obnoxious.

 

... of course, hopping in on a warshade, miring, nuking, then folding space on the survivors (if any) is just hilariously fun.

[lemming]

52 minutes ago, Ravenplume said:

One thing that players SHOULD understand about KB is that if you KB something into another group, it will aggro them.

Definitely false.

[lemming]

5 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Some people just have a kneejerk "KB bad, turn it all to KD grrrr!" reaction.

I see that a lot.

 

I once got yelled at for sniping a LT which knocked them over a ledge, but also defeated them.

 

My rule of thumb is, if they knock living enemies out of the main fight, it's their responsibility to clean up.

 

I'll have to see if Fold Space works well enough to gather up a meteor scatter. 😉  (I see Greycat thought similar...)

Edited July 1 by lemming

[Snarky]

I run with a group (Justice Superteamers Excelsior) and one of their weekly projects is "Huddle and Hurt"  The theme is to "Fold Space" all foes into our group and AoE.  Last night we did a posi 1&2, obviously we did not have those "later" powers as we were exemplared.  So the two Tanks pulled rooms to the group.  I bring this up because it is a popular, and VERY efficient, way to get through content.  Especially kill alls.  

 

Knockback.  Say it with me.... Knockback works completely against efficient AoE killing.  Repeat that A) 100 times B) Until you understand it.  

 

Now, Knockback CAN be useful.  You have control over enemies (ones that lack KB prot anyways...)  Control over enemies is good.  But control takes...control.  You need to be using the KB to "play pool" with the enemies.  You need to know where they will end up BEFORE you fire the attack.  Is that where you want them?  Does it make it easier?  Could they go through a wall and F.. the mission?  It is a very useful power when used correctly.  But then you have a power that is situational and requires set up.  Slower.  

 

Play how you want.  Heck, you can Energy Blast Knockback crazy one of my Task Forces anytime you want.  The forum loves stories about the crazy teams I run with.  But if you want to be liked by your teammates?  Learn how to use Knockback correctly.  Heck, Fold Space can be used stupid (and is often) when the user takes all the enemies from the Mez/Dam AoE the team just spent all their powers laying down.  I have seen it.  That takes some level of stupid, but there are a lot of players that achieve this naturally.  Using Knockback smartly is a much tougher game.  Not impossible, but not "I am a Fire Blaster.  I throw a Fireball" type easy.  (ps...I mostly run a Fire Blaster these days.  My butt is lazy.)

 

If you are using Knockback, learn the thing you are using.  Or do not learn it.  Your choice.  Have Fun!

Edited July 1 by Snarky

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Forager said:

My specific question: "Does anyone, who understands knockback, have a short, succinct explanation for people who do not understand knockback that are criticizing it?"

 

The duration of KB-imposed movement plus the length of time required to stand up again equates to a Hold of comparable duration, but works on more enemies than said Hold.  Properly used, KB is the strongest control in the game.

 

That's not what I would say to a nosy asscunt who tried to tell me how to slot or use my powers, but it is an accurate explanation of KB's mitigatory effects.

[Oklahoman]

When I run a BAF for the Strong and Pretty badge, I usually put all the blasters on Team 1 to take out the adds. I ask them to please not use KB as it scatters the adds and makes it more difficult to take them out quickly. Almost all of the time, that works just fine - to trust the player with their ability to play their character, and assume good intentions on everyone's part.

 

The rest of the time, Fold Space can be really helpful in those situations. 🙂 

 

I see a lot of complaining about Fold Space, but I've never found it near as irritating as Destiny's Incandescence in the wrong hands.

[cranebump]

I slotted KB to KD on everything for my AR blaster, simply because I team a lot with them and almost everything was going to send targets flaying. That said, I just work around it when I see someone else using it. I’d worry less about build monkeys chattering at you and just play your toon. 
 

Unrelated, but I AM in the camp of Fold Space sucks, having seen mobs moved completely out of my targeted location effects. HOWEVER: a tank pulling everything to themselves, after making it clear that’s how they operate, is actually nice to operate behind.

[Forager]

8 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

The duration of KB-imposed movement plus the length of time required to stand up again equates to a Hold of comparable duration, but works on more enemies than said Hold.  Properly used, KB is the strongest control in the game.

 

That's not what I would say to a nosy asscunt who tried to tell me how to slot or use my powers, but it is an accurate explanation of KB's mitigatory effects.

 

That's succinct... though now I wonder if succinct is what we need given the target audience.