Ashling Corlett - Only Love Can Hurt Like This

[Zhym]

What are everyone's thoughts on the new story arc?

 

In some ways, it seems really old school—which isn't necessarily a good thing.  It starts with a mission where the contact says, "Get in, get the data, and get out," but it turns out to be a defeat all.  Later, there's a zone hunt.  (Fortunately, the hunt seems to have been turned down to 10 trolls instead of the original 20.)  It also hopped zones quite a bit, including a "go talk to this person" cross-zone mission.  All it needed was an escort mission and a timed mission to perfectly replicate an Issue 0 arc.

 

But there is at lot to like.  The third mission, while basically walking around and watching the story (although you can get some combat in if you try), has a really cool, unique environment, and the story is worth watching.  The last mission is also mostly non-combat, but it has lots of heroes with great bios that are worth reading.  There are also some dialog trees in that last mission that led nowhere for me; I don't know if I chose the wrong options or if the dialogs are purely flavor (I could replay the arc to find out, but I don't want to go through that defeat-all at the beginning to do it).  

 

The whole thing ends on a down-note cliffhanger.  Combined with the lack of combat in the last mission (unless you want to knock a few lawyers around early on), when it was all over my main thought was, "That's it?"   (Also, like so much in this game, the ending depends on a plot contrivance that forgets that time travel exists.)

 

There are also some parts of the story where you can get a Vigilante alignment point or two, but they're entirely incidental to the story and not really talked about at all.  I also didn't see a way to get Hero alignment points.  If you're expecting something like The Graveyard Shift, with its different choices that affect both your alignment points and the direction of the story—well, this is not that. 

 

In short, there are some cool bits in this arc, but for me most part it seems like it was half finished.

What does everyone else think?  (Tagging @cranebump and @Kyksie, since I'm curious what they'd say about this if it were an AE arc.)

Edited July 27 by Zhym

[Glacier Peak]

I ran this story arc for the first time when it was released this week. I was hoping I could get it without using Ouro, but it was locked to Level 44-49 and I was on my Level 50 badger. So I went to Ouro and found the contact. Details seemed clear so I started the first mission. Didn't realize until I was in the first mob that I was Level 44 for some reason. Not sure if that's a bug, but if the contact is for Level 44-49, I think it should exemplar me to Level 49. Anyways, first mission was interesting. Lots of pros - I'm a sucker for hidden stuff so I liked the addition of the Gremlins when clicking the hidden item in the later Architect Entertainment mission. LOVED the lore connections - we finally see Hero Corps leader Rebecca Foss in game. And it was cool to see returning Hero Corps characters at the end of the last mission outside the meeting. I liked the deeper insight in to Countess Crey too. Aside from that it felt like a Homecoming story arc (and not a Cryptic or Paragon Studios story arc).

 

I was confused about why I needed to beat up trolls. I looked through my clues and scrolled through my NPC dialog and mission completion messages and didn't see any connection to Trolls. It was probably the only part (aside from the level shift thing I mentioned) that had me scratching my head like I missed something.

 

Edit: Oh, also! Another great place to farm Crey defeat badges. They've got everything but mini paragon protectors.

Edited July 27 by Glacier Peak

[lemming]

I think the arc is actually 41-44, but I'd have to rerun it at this point to check.   I don't have any lower than 50 currently.

 

Trolls you beat up to find out what they know about arriving Crey, and yea, I had pointed out beating up 20 was a bit much.

 

Zone hop wasn't terrible. Boomtown is right there, though it's then a pain to have to come back to Ashling to give her the drive.

 

It's a definite incomplete arc IMO and rather linear.  Good for a badge, some merits, and beating up Crey.

[cranebump]

Well, since you asked...:-) [Bear in mind, I think this arc is well constructed, albeit hollow in some ways...and I really hate the title]:-)

 

I felt like THE major features of this arc were the (a) AE "Holodeck" (aka "run to the next cut scene), and (b) the non-finale finale. 

 

For (a) it felt - to me - like a test run for future scripting tools (EX: vig merits; in-mish "live" cut scenes). As for (b), I was most definitely let down by the irresolution of the whole thing. I think that, since this is official content, the whole damned story should be there. I'd rather they'd waited and given me the whole thing. I also just didn't give a shit about the NPCs in the hallway (mainly because I was so caught off guard by the last mish being only a cut scene). I chatted with @Darmian about this aspect a couple days ago, and he  offered a good, albeit unconfirmed reason why the NPCs are there (which, if Darm's reason isn't the actual reason, then all that talk to the NPC shit is just a vanity exercise). recalled there was a community submissions contest for HC characters, which were promised to be included in forthcoming releases related to a resurgence of the Corps. One of these player submissions is in the room. I'm not sure about the rest of them, though they're obviously guards for the principals in the meeting. But, other than granting a bit of ancillary info and a bit of foreshadowing (for the reintroduction of a relevant Hero Corps, I assume?), I don't think the arc needed them. They're window-dressing, mainly.

 

I'm totally with you @Zhym, on your observation about the needless Defeat All (what was the point there?). I DID like using the chopper as a mish door (good idea there). As for the "talk to," my interest was piqued when I was sent to see the AE tech (that's new!). Then the "holodeck" thing followed, which was cool, except the red stars didn't go away when the cut scene was done (also, when I did this on a team on my 2nd run, I don't think they read anything, or had an NPC box open, or anything -- they were wondering why when they clicked, the next one wasn't active [which I explained for them, having run the thing solo already]). I clicked on the glitch at the behest of my team. Nothing spawned on top of us, so we left (so a bit of letdown, brought about by location). There's also some objective text that needs to be edited (when obj switches from plural to singular -- can't recall the exact wording at this point).

 

So, overall? It's a a decent story (or framework for one), with an interesting, (for now) unique feature in the middle, that leaves you with a tepid cliffhanger. Writing is clean. Main contact is well drawn. Some good jokes! Story is pretty straightforward. SOLIDLY tied into lore (Revenant hero project for one thing). Mechanically solid. Some tough bosses (unless you run your tough tank, like I did on run #3). It also introduces several interesting mechanical effects, but having reflected on it, I get the sense the designer got sidetracked by indulging in too many "Wouldn't it be cool if" ideas they had. (holodeck, big cut scene at end [untraditional, and unsatisfying], a bunch of NPCs to talk to [I didn't talk to all of them so I can't say if they had anything to do with the actual plot], cloned hero corps baddies [that you don't have to fight]).* Now, if the WHOLE story were released, and I could progress to the next mish(es) (and preferably, to a real finale), it would feel a whole lot different, I think. But alas. For all the innovation that's here, there's too much of a dependence on the shiny, making this - for me - the weak sister of the new content. an unsatisfying experience overall. We need the follow-on arc/finale. Then maybe we can more accurately determine the true quality of this unfinished tale. For now, it's (well-constructed) bog standard stuff with some sparkly widgets to set it apart. I wish I knew why we couldn't get the whole story.

 

*In a way, it was like experiencing the work of a competent author who has access to fancy new tools, wanting to use them all, rather than only the tools they needed.  I imagine if I had some shiny tools, I might go a little overboard using them, as well. Maybe. (I hope not) That said, if you're gonna have these tools, you better create something as good or better than us amateurs plodding along with videotape, while you've gone digital. If the main thing is the special effects, then I think we missed an opportunity.

 

FYI: I LOVED being able to get Vig credits in mish. That was pretty cool (and was also part of the "we're testing some stuff" impression I got).

Edited July 28 by cranebump

[Zhym]

2 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

I ran this story arc for the first time when it was released this week. I was hoping I could get it without using Ouro, but it was locked to Level 44-49 and I was on my Level 50 badger. So I went to Ouro and found the contact. Details seemed clear so I started the first mission. Didn't realize until I was in the first mob that I was Level 44 for some reason. Not sure if that's a bug, but if the contact is for Level 44-49, I think it should exemplar me to Level 49.

That was mentioned in the Focused Feedback thread during beta, but a fix doesn't seem to have made it in time for the Page to go live.

 

I don't know how the troll hunt worked for others, but when I ran the arc the previous mission was in Boomtown—which, because I was running the arc at level 44, meant that the trolls (most of which were conveniently congregated not far from the mission exit) conned very, very grey to me.  I'm not sure whether to be glad that the hunt was so easily dispatched or slightly irked that I had to do it at all.

 

@cranebump, your analysis is spot-on as usual.  "Tepid cliffhanger" is the perfect description of the ending.  OTOH, I do think the hero bios were worth reading; I thought most of them were very well done.  I wish I could say the same about the dialogs with the heroes, which...well, look.  My main is a vigilante.  He's not above roughing up some D-list "heroes" who give him too much attitude.

[Snarky]

6 hours ago, Zhym said:

What are everyone's thoughts on the new story arc?

 

In some ways, it seems really old school—which isn't necessarily a good thing.  It starts with a mission where the contact says, "Get in, get the data, and get out," but it turns out to be a defeat all.  Later, there's a zone hunt.  (Fortunately, the hunt seems to have been turned down to 10 trolls instead of the original 20.)  It also hopped zones quite a bit, including a "go talk to this person" cross-zone mission.  All it needed was an escort mission and a timed mission to perfectly replicate an Issue 0 arc.

 

But there is at lot to like.  The third mission, while basically walking around and watching the story (although you can get some combat in if you try), has a really cool, unique environment, and the story is worth watching.  The last mission is also mostly non-combat, but it has lots of heroes with great bios that are worth reading.  There are also some dialog trees in that last mission that led nowhere for me; I don't know if I chose the wrong options or if the dialogs are purely flavor (I could replay the arc to find out, but I don't want to go through that defeat-all at the beginning to do it).  

 

The whole thing ends on a down-note cliffhanger.  Combined with the lack of combat in the last mission (unless you want to knock a few lawyers around early on), when it was all over my main thought was, "That's it?"   (Also, like so much in this game, the ending depends on a plot contrivance that forgets that time travel exists.)

 

There are also some parts of the story where you can get a Vigilante alignment point or two, but they're entirely incidental to the story and not really talked about at all.  I also didn't see a way to get Hero alignment points.  If you're expecting something like The Graveyard Shift, with its different choices that affect both your alignment points and the direction of the story—well, this is not that. 

 

In short, there are some cool bits in this arc, but for me most part it seems like it was half finished.

What does everyone else think?  (Tagging @cranebump and @Kyksie, since I'm curious what they'd say about this if it were an AE arc.)

My thoughts on “Only love can hurt like this”.   A strong course of antibiotics, penicillin, and some mindfulness of future relationships.

[cranebump]

I’m going to go through it again, just to see if I missed anything. I did look up the title. It’s Brit singer Paloma Faith’s song, I believe? Still makes no sense to me, considering the initial espionage tone and content of the piece (though I gusss it applies to info in the cut scene?). That said the contacts name is Gaelic, and they employ some UK speech patterns (like saying “…,yeah?” at the end of a sentence). Between that and the Faith ref, we got a lot of UK going here. Is our author from there, or are these just character conventions?:-)

 

The next day...

 

AFTER A 3RD RUN AND RECONSIDERATION: Most of my initial impressions still stand. It's a very well constructed arc with a bit of new shiny to it. The lore-grounded story itself isn't anything novel, though the law office ending is, in that the hero does a lot of stuff for nothing (sometimes the bad guys win). Unfortunately, this kind of "cliffhanger" is just not a satisfying payoff. When the story is extended, however, it will be much easier to push that into the background (unless we get another chatty finale, which I doubt). Anyway, the Devs did promise Hero Corps, and that's what we got. At least one person I know got their character included in the story (good for you @Six-Six).:-)

 

(Before I forget: props for sending us to Booms. That zone gets very little love.)

 

ALSO: As noted WAAAAY above by the strikethrough, I'm withdrawing my "weak sister" comment (that belongs to Piecemeal's personal story, a flashy, very well done, but overly long lore dump). 

Edited July 28 by cranebump

[Ukase]

So, for the record, I did test this one on Brainstorm and was pretty clear that I thought it was a stinker. Some of my concerns were addressed, though - so there's that. 

I am hopeful that there will be a part 2 or 3 to this arc. Why? Because of one of my problems with the ending. 

First, though, in order - like what was the point of clobbering 10  trolls in boomtown when you're level 40? Granted, there are no level 40 trolls running around in any zone, but this just seemed like a waste of time to me. They could have easily had the contact say they found out whatever clue we were supposed to get doing that. It was pointless and needless. 

My second issue was with the ending. I go in there, all expecting to have to clobber everyone in the room except Ash -- and that's the ending we get? It was a bit of a let down. 

As it stands now, I did that arc for the badge, and it's doubtful I'll ever repeat it. 
Zone-hopping, a needless hunt, poor story ending. 

A third thing was how these clones of hero corp heroes were just Paragon Protectors with the same costumes, just different colors. They looked cool in different colors, but the sure weren't clones of Hero Corp - they were more Paragon Protector Clones!

The one cool thing about was the looks/costumes of certain npcs who weren't part of the story, and the skin they put on the map where we get to see videos of Countess Crey. 
Oh yeah, that reminds me of a fourth issue. We go all through that map to click on terminal after terminal - they couldn't have just had us use the same terminal? Or 3 different terminals right next to each other for some type of Redundant Array of Independent Disks? (clearly something Hero Corp should have been using.) 

 

So, for me - the story, the implementation - for the most part was a stinker. A few creative bright spots, for sure. But overall, it was a mess. 

The cool stuff again: 
The new skin on the old maps
Some of the creative names - like "Glory Hound" - loved that, and am kind of pissed I never even thought to try and get that name myself. Some of the costumes were very cool, too. 
 

[Zhym]

12 hours ago, cranebump said:

The lore-grounded story itself isn't anything novel, though the law office ending is, in that the hero does a lot of stuff for nothing (sometimes the bad guys win).

Speaking of the Law Offices of Chris Jenkins, is this the first time we've seen that map used for his offices in an official arc?  I got a strong sense of déja vu when I started the last mission, then realized I'd seen those offices before in one of @Darmian's AE arcs.

 

BTW, I still say those offices are too fancy for Chris Jenkins.  And the Chris Jenkins who advertises in Steel Canyon ("Have YOU been injured in a superpower-related conflict?  SOMEONE is responsible for your pain.  Call now for a FREE Consultation: 1-555-GET-RICH") wouldn't have a bunch of supers hanging out in his office.  The Chris Jenkins in that ad is clearly an ambulance-chasing plaintiffs' lawyer who sues supers. The only reason random supers would be hanging around his office would be if they're there to give depositions in the suits filed against them.

 

And this post seems as good a place as any for me to rant about how that ending also made no sense at all:

Spoiler

The deal going in was a swap: the incriminating evidence for the missing data and gene samples.  But, oho!  Countess Crey had the meeting time changed, and as a result...Hero Corps handed over the incriminating evidence and Crey delivered the the missing data and gene samples.  Isn't that what was going to happen anyway?

 

But then there was all this talk about how the change to the meeting time meant that [Character] wasn't there to "defend the op" and thus Crey somehow took advantage of a "stupid, inconceivable technicality."

 

And that's just nonsensical in multiple ways.  First, of course, is that one party to a mutually arranged handoff can't just change the meeting time—and if they do, all that does is make one party have to sit around for three hours.  A handoff isn't a court trial.  It isn't even a negotiation.  It's...well, a handoff.  But this mission seems to get a handoff, a negotiation, and a trial all confused, and for the ultimate result that what was supposed to happen going in is what happened. 

 

It's not just wrong, it's pointlessly wrong.

 

Edited July 28 by Zhym
Additional ranting

[Zhym]

4 minutes ago, Ukase said:

First, though, in order - like what was the point of clobbering 10  trolls in boomtown when you're level 40? Granted, there are no level 40 trolls running around in any zone, but this just seemed like a waste of time to me. They could have easily had the contact say they found out whatever clue we were supposed to get doing that. It was pointless and needless. 

This arc plays sort of like it was originally intended as a level 15-19 arc, given that it starts in Steel Canyon and involves fighting Crey (who start showing up around level 15) and trolls.  If so, I wonder what ended up pushing it to higher levels.

[50caltech]

agreed it should have been level attuned better for steel canyon..., the paragon protectors are supposed to be lvl 35ish with similar arcs in bricks town  and doc aeon runs in cap diablo at 35ish plus...

they are a pain in the butt to get for the accolade, the crey pistol is still underpowered,...

[FFFF]

I think the arc had a lot of potential. I really liked the build up. Hero Corps, the Shivan attack in Galaxy City, and lost colleagues. I also liked the ‘beat up’ look on the contact. 
 

I was expecting a love story of sorts. The contact looking desperately for a lost loved one, and finally having enough to find out what really happened. But of course, instead of a climatic battle, you just get dialogue. What a stinker of an ending, especially with all the hints of a big reveal and final battle. 

[KC4800]

I got the Bound by the NDA badge here. Was there another badge I could have gotten? I didn't see a whole lot of choice that my lvl 42 Sentinel Hero could have made.

[Kyksie]

Haven't tried it yet, I will sooner or later.

[BurtHutt]

This game is 20 years old. They added this arc and the only way it's different, really, is the story aspect of it. To me, this is bad. I'm not reading a book. When I play a game, the visuals and play are the most important aspect. So, it's just another bunch of missions that look the same and feel the same. I know there are some subtle differences. Like the other HC arcs, I tried it and I doubt I'll play it again. 

 

I don't know if HC has the Dev team that can make a lot of new maps and so on but I hope they can. It'd also be great to never see these same old factions/characters again in any additional content. When you see the same warehouse, office, base, cave over and over and over and over....it's a bit much.

 

Then add to that the same old characters, factions, teams....it gets really repetitive. This arc did add some unique parts and characters, yes, and that was a nice add. 

 

I think part of the reason Cimerora was a hit was it's uniqueness. You don't see those characters all over the place. Now you're starting to see them a bit more which is too bad.

 

I'm not saying build another Cimerora but at least add new characters and looks and maps.

 

Again, HC Devs, you're doing amazing work. I appreciate it all but I don't think it helps if I am not honest in my feedback. Thanks for all that you do.

Edited July 28 by BurtHutt

[50caltech]

fyi it should have been linked with these story arcs for both sides...https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Conspiracy_Theorist_Badge#Inherent_Power

[Kyksie]

I ran though it today, and it was... okay. Not bad, not amazing, just okay. Bullet point thoughts:

• Mildly annoying that 50s have to do it though Ouro. The 'Too high level' dialog doesn't actually tell you that you're too high level. 
• Writing was consistently great, both in dialog and descriptions.
• I ran it with a top-tier Sentinel (no Incarnate powers cuz 49) and the challenge level of the bosses was about right, I had to eat an insp once in a while.
• The defeat all was unnecessary.
• The troll hunt is an amazingly dumb idea. Boomtown is level 12-19, but the minimum level for this TF is 41, making it a yawner for everyone. Also pummeling drug-addled goons for information is never a good idea, unless you're looking for drugs yourself.
• Using the AE as a contact is a cool idea, I wonder if there are consequences for saying the wrong thing to that dude.
• Loved the new tile set. I'm actually glad they didn't use the cliche of "Oh no the holodeck is malfunctioning and the safety interlocks are down, I can pull you out in three minutes!!"
• *Two* noncombat missions was a bit much. Loved all the extra details in the last one.
• Ending was limp, no closure.

Anyway if this was a user-submitted AE I'd be rating it three kicks out of five or something like that.

[twozerofoxtrot]

Ukase summed up most of my feelings on the arc.

 

I agree that it's neat some of the player created Hero Corps characters were included.

 

I'm glad vigilante credits were awarded, but that's not new. We've been getting those during HC-created content since i27 at least. 

 

There were elements of the story I enjoyed, but the writing was not good. HC team needs a dedicated Editor.

 

I'll echo what a lot of the players here said: the title of the arc makes no sense, and gives a false impression of the stakes.

 

Overall, I was unimpressed. This was the first HC-created content that I felt landed short of a well established standard. For the record, I've enjoyed (to varying degrees) every other piece of original content they've put out, with the Dr. Aeon Strike Force and Piecemeal arcs at the top of that list.

[cranebump]

11 hours ago, Kyksie said:

Anyway if this was a user-submitted AE I'd be rating it three kicks out of five or something like that.

If this were somehow accomplished with the AE tools we currently, I'd give it a 50.:-)

[Six-Six]

On 7/28/2024 at 11:34 AM, cranebump said:

Anyway, the Devs did promise Hero Corps, and that's what we got. At least one person I know got their character included in the story (good for you @Six-Six).:-)

Really??? which one. You got a screen shot for me?

I haven't had the time to play in over a month or so. Real life has a tendency to get in way of villain work. 😃

 

 

[cranebump]

12 hours ago, Six-Six said:

Really??? which one. You got a screen shot for me?

All I have is the fond memory of the event. And this paddle game (pock-pock-pock-pock).

 

(I don't recall, my friend, sorry. As for screenshots, I am out of space, thanks to my Devil Bat days).

[Britannic]

One thing that confused me is the timing of this arc, is it meant to be before we expose and arrest Countess Crey as Julianne Thompson, or after? Both arcs currently appear within the 40-45 leveling, and this new one feels like it should be set in the late 30s.

[Zhym]

3 minutes ago, Britannic said:

One thing that confused me is the timing of this arc, is it meant to be before we expose and arrest Countess Crey as Julianne Thompson, or after? Both arcs currently appear within the 40-45 leveling, and this new one feels like it should be set in the late 30s.

I wondered that too.  The arc seems like it's written as if we haven't done Janet Kellum's arc, which is another reason I suspect this was originally intended as a lower-level arc.

[TerroirNoir2]

2 hours ago, Zhym said:

I wondered that too.  The arc seems like it's written as if we haven't done Janet Kellum's arc, which is another reason I suspect this was originally intended as a lower-level arc.

I didn't get that at all.  I had done Kellum and went into it knowing the events of it.  But Countess Crey got out of that somehow and continues to operate AS Countess Crey and the head of Crey Industries, no matter what we found out earlier. The game world continues to treat her as Countess Crey and any mention of her being an imposter is ignored it seems. So her lawyers and public relations team are working over time on all that.  It seems the Bound by NDA badge applies not just to this arc but to plenty of arcs where the Countess is involved and never brought to justice or at least made to answer for her actions. 

 

A petty point by me.  The final cut scene starts far too fast!  I know I got to wander around and check all the cameos after the mission ended but I was hoping for a little tour beforehand.  Plus on a team if someone else talks to the Hero Corps people then I can't!  I solo'd it after to get all that though.

[Zhym]

21 minutes ago, TerroirNoir2 said:

I didn't get that at all.  I had done Kellum and went into it knowing the events of it.  But Countess Crey got out of that somehow and continues to operate AS Countess Crey and the head of Crey Industries, no matter what we found out earlier. The game world continues to treat her as Countess Crey and any mention of her being an imposter is ignored it seems. So her lawyers and public relations team are working over time on all that.  It seems the Bound by NDA badge applies not just to this arc but to plenty of arcs where the Countess is involved and never brought to justice or at least made to answer for her actions. 

Fair.  But it's hard to tell an arc where no one talks about who Countess Crey really is from an arc where no one knows yet who Countess Crey really is.  Given other aspects of this arc (like that troll hunt), and that fact that even our contact—who wouldn't have any reason to hide who the Countess really is—doesn't say anything about Countess Crey's history, it seems more likely to me that this was meant to be pre-Kellum.

 

True, no villain stays arrested. (The Zig is a turnstile.)  But aside from a brief appearance in the Dr. Kahn TF, Janet Kellum's arc is the last we see of Countess Crey.  So you'd think that if this mission were meant as a follow-on to Kellum's arc, there'd be at least a token explanation of what she's doing out in the world running Crey again.

 

Speaking of the Zig, I do rather wish it weren't quite so easy for villains to pop in and out like it's a no-tell motel (or the prison version of Azuria's secure magical storage).  Especially in the case of Countess Crey, who was not only arrested but exposed as an impostor.  Having her back and running Crey again like nothing happened cheapens the Kellum story, IMO.  All that work you did?  Yeah, it was for nothing.  Sorry about that. 

 

Such fatalism would be in keeping with this arc (unfortunately), but if that's intended, it should be addressed head-on.

 

Come to think of it, this arc is kind of a missed opportunity.  With Countess Crey exposed and arrested, there's a lot of potential for a story about what happens next.  Does the "Countess" manage to re-assert control?  If so, how does she manage that?  Or do other forces within Crey fight each other to take it over?  Does Crey disintegrate?  Form an alliance with some other organization?  See Arachnos as its best chance at continued profits, and go full rogue, but using its established presence in Paragon City for some advantage?  So many ways that story could go. 

 

Maybe we'll get that story in a future update (or in AE, anyone?)

 

Edited August 12 by Zhym