Player Feedback Request: Protector of Paragon City

[Dev Unitas]

Hello everyone!

Today I'm asking for some feedback for a potential change to the Protector of Paragon City Badge.

 

I know it's been a somewhat controversial badge among some, and I understand the various reasons, but (most of) those aren't the reason I'm coming to talk today specifically (not that you're unwelcome to express your thoughts on those reasons in the thread if you feel unheard/you have a new perspective to bring forward).

 

Since the release of last page, I've been mulling over the criteria for the badge, on how I feel about specifics. In particular, the badge requirement that has been bugging me is the Beyond Reasonable Doubt badge - rewarded for completing specific criteria in the Shauna Braun story arc that trends Heroic.

 

The primary issue here, is that the Shauna Braun story arc is only accessible to Vigilantes. This essentially locks 'true blue' characters out from obtaining either source of the Sheer Willpower accolade power. As Vigilantes and Rogues can earn Strike Force Commander/Deep Strike Commander, this effectively defeats quite literally half of the point of this badge; to give Heroes a method to obtain the accolade power without going against their character's morals.

 

So, my open question: Assuming I were to replace Beyond Reasonable Doubt as a requirement with another blueside story arc, which would you suggest? My general desire is to lean towards newer/higher quality arcs, especially arcs created by Homecoming or otherwise unreleased on the original Paragon live servers, and I would prefer an arc that is not connected to any other major accolade. None of this is a hard rule though, if a strong suggestion is brought forward.

 

If you would prefer I remove that badge and not replace it with anything else, that's also a consideration, but for the purposes of this thread I would like to omit that possibility, so please disregard it in your feedback.

 

Thanks in advance for all your thoughts and passion!

[TheMoneyMaker]

I have no idea as I haven't fully explored all the content that could potentially apply but I do like the open discussion of it  👍

[Monos King]

I like emphasis being placed on the newer arcs, and greater attention being given to them. As long as the badge can be granted by simply being apart of the team running the badge granting mission, rather than needing to own the contact, I think it's aligned with pretty much all accolade hunting endeavors. Sometimes you just hop on a team to get the badge, and move on.

 

Immersion in character morality is really important, but if you're also running for a meta inclusion like a CC protection power, I don't these particular terms for briefly "compromising" your characters ethics are your utmost  priority.  And again, that's a cushioned concern when just joining in a team for the badge anyway. Vigilantes/rogues are already compromising their ethics for 98% of the game and it shakily works anyway (though more of that content is warmly welcome).

[Dev Unitas]

1 minute ago, Monos King said:

Immersion in character morality is really important, but if you're also running for a meta inclusion like a CC protection power, I don't these particular terms for briefly "compromising" your characters ethics are your utmost  priority.  And again, that's a cushioned concern when just joining in a team for the badge anyway. Vigilantes/rogues are already compromising their ethics for 98% of the game and it shakily works anyway (though more of that content is warmly welcome).

I believe that there's a not-insignificant portion of players who both want to collect all accolade powers to them, and also have the self-imposed limitation of staying purely blueside, whether for RP, gameplay or other reasons. This accolade exists to cater to them (and solo-only/preferred players) while being, frankly, grindy enough to encourage the majority of players interested in the accolade power to hop over redside and group up with other people to get SFC instead. Since it exists to cater to a specific niche demographic, and explicitly does not, I don't currently think leaving it as-is is the solution.

[Techwright]

Is it possible to create an "either this or that" situation?  That is, leave the Shauna Braun arc in place, but also present a "true blue" arc that could be substituted for those who prefer the "true blue" status?

[Dev Unitas]

9 minutes ago, Techwright said:

Is it possible to create an "either this or that" situation?  That is, leave the Shauna Braun arc in place, but also present a "true blue" arc that could be substituted for those who prefer the "true blue" status?

Possible, but would start to make the whole thing a bit messy in terms of the badge hint (not to say it's a write-off because of that, but it's a consideration).

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

I like emphasis being placed on the newer arcs, and greater attention being given to them. As long as the badge can be granted by simply being apart of the team running the badge granting mission, rather than needing to own the contact, I think it's aligned with pretty much all accolade hunting endeavors. Sometimes you just hop on a team to get the badge, and move on.

 

Immersion in character morality is really important, but if you're also running for a meta inclusion like a CC protection power, I don't these particular terms for briefly "compromising" your characters ethics are your utmost  priority.  And again, that's a cushioned concern when just joining in a team for the badge anyway. Vigilantes/rogues are already compromising their ethics for 98% of the game and it shakily works anyway (though more of that content is warmly welcome).

 

I've had this discussion before - for some folks it's just *really* important that they stay true blue (don't typically see this for red as much.) Even if there's nothing to show they ever swapped, even for just a moment, previously (though I suppose there's that "Grass is greener/meaner" badge,) concept > all for them.

 

That said, there's no similar requirement redside, so I can see the ask also being one of equity for the same power. It'd be like having two equal rewards, one that's just "Eat at least twice a day for a week" and the other's "Eat something with peanuts every meal, every day for a week" - one can eat anything, the other will have *bad* consequences for some people. (Yes, I know, orders of magnitude past "I can't get an accolade power in a game" as far as seriousness, but that's not the point.)

 

While it doesn't meet the "Homecoming created arc" (or any arc at all) criteria, "Heard the Call" seems the most obvious to me.  I don't think I've heard any grey-side complaints about maintaining their alignment to get things (and they also have the option of SFC, or just saying "I'm grey, of COURSE I swapped alignments to get something!")

[Ukase]

Short answer: Don't replace it, just remove the arc as a requirement. Alternatively, Sister Valeria's arc, "Glory and Dark Tidings". 

For the long-winded version: 
 

Spoiler

One of the things that's always puzzled me about accolades is the different pathways to achieve them. 
I look at Invader vs TFC...it's kind of ridiculous how much more simple it is (with the availability of Lord Schweinzer) to acquire Invader, at least from a time perspective compared to TFC. 

And then I look at Sheer Will, for redside seems fairly straightforward - do the 5 Strike Forces, compared to the sheer tedium (granted, that's just my perspective) of doing those safeguard side missions. Those alone would lead me to do the red side SFs. No issue with the story arcs at all. 

The contrast between the requirements for different alignments seems rather stark, but I suppose it washes out looking at all of the accolades instead of just those. 

As for what to replace it with, why not remove the requirement altogether and not replace it at all? 

I can already imagine some folks might clamor that isn't fair, and it probably isn't. But it's a game. Fair needn't necessarily be part of the solution. 
So, if that's the prevalent train of thought, perhaps Sister Valeria's arc might be useful. Some may consider that gated to level 50's, but as far as my memory goes, pretty sure any level 1 can now get to cim and join a team doing this arc, if it's not done through Ouro. 

It's new, accessible, and it's an easy stretch to consider it heroic. At least, that's my thoughts. 

 

[Dev Unitas]

1 minute ago, Ukase said:

Short answer: Don't replace it, just remove the arc as a requirement. Alternatively, Sister Valeria's arc, "Glory and Dark Tidings". 

For the long-winded version: 
 

  Reveal hidden contents

One of the things that's always puzzled me about accolades is the different pathways to achieve them. 
I look at Invader vs TFC...it's kind of ridiculous how much more simple it is (with the availability of Lord Schweinzer) to acquire Invader, at least from a time perspective compared to TFC. 

And then I look at Sheer Will, for redside seems fairly straightforward - do the 5 Strike Forces, compared to the sheer tedium (granted, that's just my perspective) of doing those safeguard side missions. Those alone would lead me to do the red side SFs. No issue with the story arcs at all. 

The contrast between the requirements for different alignments seems rather stark, but I suppose it washes out looking at all of the accolades instead of just those. 

As for what to replace it with, why not remove the requirement altogether and not replace it at all? 

I can already imagine some folks might clamor that isn't fair, and it probably isn't. But it's a game. Fair needn't necessarily be part of the solution. 
So, if that's the prevalent train of thought, perhaps Sister Valeria's arc might be useful. Some may consider that gated to level 50's, but as far as my memory goes, pretty sure any level 1 can now get to cim and join a team doing this arc, if it's not done through Ouro. 

It's new, accessible, and it's an easy stretch to consider it heroic. At least, that's my thoughts. 

 

As I explained in the original post, this conversation isn't about removal of it without replacement. That is on the cards and will be within consideration, but I request that it's not discussed here as it's not the point of this thread, alternatives are. As I also explained above (and in previous threads) the 'unfairness' of the accolade when compared with SFC is very very deliberate, the overall number one goal of the Accolade Power was to provide additional motivation for players to complete Strike Forces and this is simply a more grindy/time-consuming alternative that one may pursue for their own niche, specific reasons. Debating the fairness is not a part of this thread's particular discussion, and I ask that it is not a particularly meaningful consideration in deciding upon an arc.

 

Regarding Valeria, I'm not really considering it because, simply, it's a co-op arc. Not specifically/exclusively heroic, which means that it's not really within the theme/intent of the badge's existence in my eyes. In addition, it doesn't primarily take place in Paragon City, which means it doesn't exactly fit the 'Protector of Paragon City' theming.

[Psyonico]

Maybe one of Provost Marchand's Brickstown arcs?  I believe those were not part of live.

 

Only question is, which of his arcs?

[Lazarillo]

Does it need to be an arc that provides a badge currently?  On-theme, my first inclination would be one that speaks specifically towards defending citizens, and to that extent, an arc like The Vahzilok Pollutant Plot or its next step up, The Vahzilok Plague.  Or similarly, An Unnatural Order or The Unity Plague also work well from this perspective, and are closer to the same level range as Shauna Braun, I believe, if that's important (and also adds some variety: wouldn't be more Vahzilok which are already the feature of Watkins' arc).

Edited Saturday at 10:49 PM by Lazarillo

[Derek Icelord]

I can't recall if Roy Cooling was a contact on the Retail servers or if Homecoming added him. If he's a Homecoming addition, why not replace Beyond Reasonable Doubt with one of his badges? He's a hero contact, and the optional badge in his arc (No One Left Behind) would seem to fit with the "pure blue" theme and he's in a similar level range to Shauna Braun (20-29 for Roy Cooling, 25-29 for Shauna Braun).

Edited Saturday at 11:24 PM by Derek Icelord

[ZamuelNow]

Roy Cooling was on Live (I distinctly remember blueside only players being shocked at how nasty PPD are to fight) but it's a "newer" arc and really feels like it would be in line for a hero only accolade.

[Moonscribe]

Hey, this is something I have opinions on! I agree that making heroes do a Vigilante arc to get the "true-blue hero" version of this accolade doesn't make sense, so thank you for considering this change.

 

Tl;dr, I think the best option would be EAGLE EYE, the final contact for the i24 Skulls arcs. I don't think it's a slam dunk, though. Here's my thoughts on some of the best candidates in approximate order of most to least recommended, but I can see why you picked Shauna Braun in the first place, because none of the options are ideal:

 

EAGLE EYE
Pros: Hero/vigilante only; pretty heroic, involves protecting Paragon City from the Skulls; has badges already; decent writing and mission design; Issue 24 content unreleased on the retail servers
Cons: Requires Shauna Stockwell's arc to be completed first, so perhaps some other requirements should be removed from the badge if this is chosen, or it will take even longer to complete (alternatively, require Shauna's arc instead, but it feels odd not to choose the last one in the series)

 

PROVOST MARCHAND (PRIMAL EARTH)
Pros: Arc doable only by heroes and vigilantes; very pure heroic tone; involves protecting Paragon City from the Council and Calvin Scott; has many badges already created; Issue 24 content unreleased on retail; high production values, well-designed missions
Cons: Actually 3 arcs (plus a personal story), so if this arc is chosen either it should be the first arc only (which feels weird) or some other requirements should be removed to balance things out; very questionable writing, IMO

 

HELDENJAEGER (SSA2 FINALE)
Pros: Technically hero-only and was clearly designed with heroes in mind; involves protecting Paragon City from a classic Nemesis Plot; high production values; decent writing/design, if you like Nemesis Plots; Issue 24 content unreleased on retail; no need to do any of the previous chapters to run the arc
Cons: No badge currently exists for completion, so one would have to be created; villain version exists and is not all that different

 

ASHLING CORLETT
Pros: Doable only by heroes and vigilantes; in-house Homecoming arc; badge already exists for completing the arc
Cons: Has a bit of a vigilante tone to it; tragic/cliffhanger ending in which you fail to protect Paragon City from Crey; overall bad writing/design, IMO

 

I don't recommend anything not on this list (unless I forgot about it; I think I looked at all the i24+ arcs). I was going to also list pros and cons for some co-op arcs like Valeria or Infernia, but it sounds like those aren't up for consideration (and they're worse fits than most of the above anyway). Hope this is helpful!

[Psyonico]

FWIW: I think you actually can do Eagle Eye's arc without doing Shauna Stockwell's.  I am pretty sure that if you just talk to him at any point you're in his level range, he'll start the arc.

 

Also, through Ouroboros you don't need to do the prerequisite arc.

[Jacke]

I agree this should be changed.  I don't run pure Hero characters, but a pure Hero character should be able to earn Protector of Paragon City without changing from Hero.

 

I also thing changing Shauna Braun's Arc to allow it to be run by Heroes isn't a good fix.

 

As for what should replace Beyond Reasonable Doubt, although there are many great non-Badge Arcs, there's no way at the moment to test for Arc Souvenirs in Popmenus.  It's easier for Players to use Badge Arcs as Prerequisites.

 

So here's the Badges I think should be considered to replace Beyond Reasonable Doubt:

• Savior of Atlas Park (Aaron Thiery's Arc)
• Complicated (Frostfire, Flux's Hollows Arc)
• Skull Buster (Eagle Eye's Kings Row Arc)
• Rescuer (Penelope Yin's Faultline Arc)
• Dignified Combatant (Graham Easton's Steel Canyon Arc Hero choice)

 

[Monos King]

8 hours ago, Dev Unitas said:

I believe that there's a not-insignificant portion of players who both want to collect all accolade powers to them, and also have the self-imposed limitation of staying purely blueside, whether for RP, gameplay or other reasons. This accolade exists to cater to them (and solo-only/preferred players) while being, frankly, grindy enough to encourage the majority of players interested in the accolade power to hop over redside and group up with other people to get SFC instead. Since it exists to cater to a specific niche demographic, and explicitly does not, I don't currently think leaving it as-is is the solution.

Ah, okay, I'm understanding the dilemma better now reading through the thread. 

 

I like a lot of the suggestions here already. I would also think the Dignified Combatant badge from Graham Easton would work well.

 

 

[Mathew322]

As someone who primarily switches between Vigilante and Rogue to maximize the amount of content available to me-

 

-it is vital that I clarify that no badges aimed at Heroes or Villains should require participation in changing your alignment.

 

There can be contacts and missions and badges and other things that you need to be Vigilante or Rogue to participate in, but the in-between alignments should remain entirely optional and shouldn't bleed into the Hero and Villain Accolade Badges/Powers.

 

Now if you wanna make some Vigilante and Rogue Accolade Badges/Powers then that's a different story! 😉

[Uun]

14 hours ago, Moonscribe said:

PROVOST MARCHAND (PRIMAL EARTH)
Pros: Arc doable only by heroes and vigilantes; very pure heroic tone; involves protecting Paragon City from the Council and Calvin Scott; has many badges already created; Issue 24 content unreleased on retail; high production values, well-designed missions
Cons: Actually 3 arcs (plus a personal story), so if this arc is chosen either it should be the first arc only (which feels weird) or some other requirements should be removed to balance things out; very questionable writing, IMO

Each of the 3 arcs can be individually selected in Ouro.

[Moonscribe]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

Each of the 3 arcs can be individually selected in Ouro.

True, I guess the dependencies are more narrative than game mechanical. Well, in that case, Eagle Eye and Marchand have even more reason to be at the top of my list!

[Snarky]

I think you should change the badge icon....

 

Protector of Paragon City

[Chris24601]

My suggestion would be the “Guardian of Forever” badge obtained by re-doing the Laura Lockheart arc in Oroboros and changing the original ending to save her.

 

Because being a true blue hero means it’s not good enough to stop the Council/5th war, you go the extra mile to save everyone you can.

[Dev Unitas]

1 minute ago, Chris24601 said:

My suggestion would be the “Guardian of Forever” badge obtained by re-doing the Laura Lockheart arc in Oroboros and changing the original ending to save her.

 

Because being a true blue hero means it’s not good enough to stop the Council/5th war, you go the extra mile to save everyone you can.

Already part of the accolade!

[Hedgefund]

I rather like the Shauna Braun arc, I tend to do it leveling up because it's a nice merit injection for very little time spent.  If I were a merit farmer I'd spend a lot of time with this arc via Flashback.  

 

To replace it, Instead of "new shiny" maybe go old school and require the Complicated badge (Frostfire in Flux's arc).

[Britannic]

How about 'Looking Through the Glass' (levels 20-29) from Special Agent Jenni Adair? It has you stopping Protean from unleashing an invasion upon Paragon City. The badge  you get at the end is Singular Vision: "You've prevented Protean from carrying out his plot for a Praetorian invasion, but not without a heavy cost - the death of your alternate self."

Edited Monday at 10:22 PM by Britannic