City of Heroes Ranked #245 out of 250 MMORPGs

[gameboy1234]

16 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Edit: CoH’s systems are also superfluous. There’s no point in the IO system since it can be largely ignored for 99.9% of content in the game and only helps you to win harder, which you were going to do anyway. Same deal with the Incarnate System.

 

I actually disagree with this.  Enhancements are part of the game and were since the beginning.  Not having enhancements means a slow and difficult climb up the XP ladder, even with the much higher XP on Homecoming.  Unless you're farming in the AE or you always team, then sure it's much easier, but not all new players do that.  And you'll miss a lot of content that way, something new players are interested in doing.

 

I think that actually makes the Enhancement system a bigger problem, since it's not really optional, but is also kind of a confusing mess.  Simplifying everything, including just making IOs the default and removing nearly everything else (maybe not Hami or DSyncs, since people do use those, but that can wait until 50), might make the game a bit more approachable for everyone.  Generic IOs lower level than 20 could just drop (but sparingly, not anything like the rate for regular Enh) and then by 20 folks could be introduced to crafting.

 

(For folks that still want the regular Enh, I'd leave them in game, but hide them on all vendors.  Make a "Hide Old Enhancements" options on the pop-up menu for the vendors, and set it to hide by default.  Now newbies no longer confused.)

 

[lemming]

I'll just assume he got streaming from some other server than HC since I spotted a lot of costume violations.

[Lunar Ronin]

26 minutes ago, lemming said:

I'll just assume he got streaming from some other server than HC since I spotted a lot of costume violations.

 

Probably.  Homecoming is the only server that cares about that, the rest do not.

[biostem]

5 hours ago, Seed22 said:

Edit: CoH’s systems are also superfluous. There’s no point in the IO system since it can be largely ignored for 99.9% of content in the game and only helps you to win harder, which you were going to do anyway. Same deal with the Incarnate System.

Doesn't this apply to pretty much all games that have different tiers of gear, where the "ultra-rare hard to get" items are only marginally better than the regular stuff you can get?  only in CoH, you can run content with a guaranteed and reliable merit payout, so you know exactly how much you'll have to run to purchase the exact item(s) you want...

[Luminara]

6 hours ago, Seed22 said:

There’s no point in the IO system since it can be largely ignored for 99.9% of content in the game and only helps you to win harder, which you were going to do anyway. Same deal with the Incarnate System.

 

They're lateral progression.  They were designed and implemented as ways players could make their characters better, without raising the level cap.  They were never intended to replace other systems, such as SOs, but to supplement them.  As such, they're neither pointless nor superfluous.  They were made to do something, and they do exactly what they were meant to do.

[Seed22]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

Doesn't this apply to pretty much all games that have different tiers of gear, where the "ultra-rare hard to get" items are only marginally better than the regular stuff you can get?  only in CoH, you can run content with a guaranteed and reliable merit payout, so you know exactly how much you'll have to run to purchase the exact item(s) you want...

No not at all. CoH having IOs isn’t the problem, CoH having IOs while all content is balanced for SOs is the problem.  Thus making IOs and incarnates superfluous. No other games do this. 
 

 

Every other game pretty much in the history OF games has incrementally or actually significantly noticeably better gear and significant difficulty spikes and walls to make use of said gear.

 

CoH is the only game I’ve played that had a serious gear system that didn’t.

Edited December 25, 2024 by Seed22

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, Seed22 said:

No not at all. CoH having IOs isn’t the problem, CoH having IOs while all content is balanced for SOs is the problem. No other games do this. 

 

I don't consider this a problem at all. I consider it a nice way to boost your charactrs without them having to raise the level cap. Which will never happen. It'd be too much of a job even for a paid full team . . . which this game no longer has. IOs and the Incarnate system are fine as is, despite a few rough spots.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Seed22 said:

No not at all. CoH having IOs isn’t the problem, CoH having IOs while all content is balanced for SOs is the problem. No other games do this. 

Hmm?  IOs are more of an end-game thing, (yes, I know you can use them much earlier, but many games never extend their updated gear over most of the level ranges prior to their introduction, either)...

[Seed22]

15 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

I don't consider this a problem at all. I consider it a nice way to boost your charactrs without them having to raise the level cap. Which will never happen. It'd be too much of a job even for a paid full team . . . which this game no longer has. IOs and the Incarnate system are fine as is, despite a few rough spots.

Raising the level cap doesn’t usually fix an issue of difficulty, if ever solely. It would require actual walls to be implemented into CoH via enemy mechanics that check your level of understanding as a player incrementally along the path to 50( mobs that play like experienced players would, prioritizing targets and becoming heavily resistant to player taunts being a possible example) 

 

This would of course also require revamps and large efforts, understandably. I get why it wouldn’t happen. 
 

 

The IO system IS indeed fine…and I’m not advocating its’ removal to clarify. It’s just…think of it like a max level mage in WoW stomping around their starter zone. Now imagine that for the entire game. 
 

It can be fun, especially if you want to turn your brain off and just smack some goons. But even with that, I still would find it weird that when I want something that at least equals me in power without being artificially difficult(dangerous mechanics and modest stat boost instead of 100% stat boost and the same mechanics you saw in lower tiers of the same content) there isn’t anything in game for that. 
 

TLDR: IOs and incarnates are kind of out of place in a game like this imo. They should not be removed, but maybe there should be more mechanics driven encounters over stat boosted enemies that account for this. 
 

 

 

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Seed22 said:

TLDR: IOs and incarnates are kind of out of place in a game like this imo. They should not be removed, but maybe there should be more mechanics driven encounters over stat boosted enemies that account for this.

 

I agree that Incarnate powers feel out-of-place, but it is IMO the incarnate content that has most of the game's "gotta understand specific mechanics" content... so I don't know if this argument really gels.

 

I rather like the IO system, because it allows a solo player to emphasize their own build by making choices that work the way the player wants their characters to perform. Certainly there are elements of making characters with relatively few weaknesses, but as near as I can tell it is mostly the Incarnate system that is required in order to build characters able to handle the hardest difficulty settings (solo) for otherwise somewhat straightforward missions/arcs. Certainly if we didn't have power picks above 40 as well as all those extra slots most of the game would be much more challenging. I also don't want to discount the fat that having an inherent Fitness pool makes a lot of sense (because the game wasn't that much fun having to include that pool via choices), but even without IOs an inherent Fitness pool makes characters more powerful.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Seed22 said:

Every other game pretty much in the history OF games has incrementally or actually significantly noticeably better gear and significant difficulty spikes and walls to make use of said gear.

 

CoH is the only game I’ve played that had a serious gear system that didn’t.

 

Other games have much more restricted character development.  They can do that because they tightly control how powerful any class can be at any given level, how strong the gear is, who can use the gear, how much gear the character can have at a time, any and all special bonus effects from the gear, et cetera.  The people developing those games can create content with extremely specific expectations, based on the limited, controlled character development they've allowed, and have a significant degree of assurance that it will be palatable based on the limitations they've imposed in character development.

 

Co* has 98 gear slots and 34 gear categories, compounded by 15 classes, each with its own gear category, and the only controls over character development are being locked into a single primary and secondary, not being allowed to access more than four power pools, and only one *PP.  You can't have gear checks in a game with this much gear and this little control over character development, not without completely overhauling it from the ground up.  It's was deliberately designed not to have gear checks.  It's not those other games, it never was and never can be.

[Neiska]

I generally take "tier lists" and the like with a large pile of salt. Other people are entitled to their opinions certainly, but I am not obligated to agree or even care.

 

Oh, and Merry Christmas.

[Erratic1]

On 12/22/2024 at 7:45 PM, Lunar Ronin said:

The MMORPG YouTuber Josh "Strife" Hayes put together the "ultimate MMO tier list," and City of Heroes is only ranked #245, behind a bunch of gacha games and games that aren't even out yet.  So when do we riot? /s

 

 

His comments are not negative, but honestly...behind Everquest 3, which does not exist (and he states that)? Same with City of Titans. 🙄

[Kyksie]

I've enjoyed JSH for some time now and have watched almost all of of his "worst MMO ever" videos. Nevertheless, this 'list' is garbage: if anything it's a list of the most talked about MMOs, not the ones you should play. It lists League of Angels at #77 or so, which even he says is 'soulless garbage'.

Edited December 25, 2024 by Kyksie

[Gobbledigook]

Champions online at 93 and CoH 245? crazy talk.

[Doc_Scorpion]

21 hours ago, Seed22 said:

CoH having IOs isn’t the problem, CoH having IOs while all content is balanced for SOs is the problem.  Thus making IOs and incarnates superfluous. No other games do this. 

CoX being balanced around SOs wasn't a problem at all - due to their expense, set IOs were not all that common.  CoH:Homecoming is a very different kettle of fish.  Thanks to the Merit/Converter roulette economy, IOs are relatively cheap.  A much higher proportion of the playerbase uses them and builds that use multiple sets in ways that would have been cost prohibitive back in the day are common.  And that's not even discussing the changes in the meta.

It's less a problem with the game or it's design than it is that we da players are no longer playing the game as it was played when IO's were added to the game back in 2007.

[Lockpick]

On 12/23/2024 at 11:51 AM, Seed22 said:

CoH is a 20 year old MMO missing a gaggle of QoL that better MMOs have.

 

 

So, I'm interested in what QoL features are missing?

 

From my perspective when CoH was Live it had many more features than newer games that came out.  Only game I have seen that has the character description for others to read.

[Seed22]

47 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

 

So, I'm interested in what QoL features are missing?

 

From my perspective when CoH was Live it had many more features than newer games that came out.  Only game I have seen that has the character description for others to read.

-Mass email of items

-Seemless cross faction play(WoW has this mostly so I include it here)

-Sell all option enhancements in stores(SOs. There technically is one in the AH so this is kind of a half issue but having it on stores would be great.)

 

These are just the three I can think of off the top of my head. BG3 I believe has character descriptions. Most other action oriented games do not unfortunately. I haven’t played as many tactical RPGs but I’d imagine they have something. Not too sure though. But to be fair to those who don’t,  its’ kind of easy to see what the enemy does after one or so encounters in other games. In game enemy descriptions really only fit MMOs I think.

Edited December 26, 2024 by Seed22

[Oubliette_Red]

On 12/23/2024 at 10:51 AM, Seed22 said:

CoH is a 20 year old MMO missing a gaggle of QoL that better MMOs have. As far as visibility? You could try, and possibly it would attract a short term audience that leads to a bump and a very small long term audience.

 

 

But CoH was niche and obscure in its’ hayday. I doubt it’ll ever be a big title.

 

Also, you really don’t want that. It’ll lose so much of what made it great for you all in the process of going ‘mainstream’

 

With the other MMO's I've played I always compared them to CoH (Legacy or HC, doesn't matter) and always found them lacking CoH's QoL features. Sidekicking/exemplaring was probably one of the biggest ones, want to join your friends on any character? Go for it.

 

So many times whilst I was playing DDO with a friend, DDO's mechanics or poor design left me saying "That's so stupid", so much so that I just starting saying "That's so DDO."

 

Played New World for a bit, it's very pretty but there was nothing that kept my attention. Having story arcs ending in missions that require a set number of players? Fail.

 

I don't care to mention the others as I'm gonna go play a 20yo, dead, niche game now.

[biostem]

On 12/26/2024 at 4:34 PM, Seed22 said:

Mass email of items

I could be wrong, but this one, in particular, I envisioned to be a measure to at least make looting a hacked account a bit more difficult, (though the original devs also didn't seem to think creating tons of alts would be a thing, either, admittedly).

 

On 12/26/2024 at 4:34 PM, Seed22 said:

-Seemless cross faction play(WoW has this mostly so I include it here)

When you say "seemless", what do you mean?  There are co-op zones, where players of all alignments can team freely.  The hero or villain-sides are, by design, exclusive to those leaning toward one side of the hero<->villain scale.

 

On 12/26/2024 at 4:34 PM, Seed22 said:

-Sell all option enhancements in stores(SOs. There technically is one in the AH so this is kind of a half issue but having it on stores would be great.)

There are quartermasters in some zones that do sell every type of SO, AFAIK, unless you mean something else when you say "all option enhancements".  From a thematic standpoint, the origin-specific stores hero-side at least make some sense...

Edited December 28, 2024 by biostem

[MoonSheep]

i have to say, i’m disappointed to see that CoH is several spots from the bottom

 

it shows that the reviewer hasn’t really done much research - if they had spent time on the forums, got to know some of us and looked a bunch of the everyday discussions on here i’m confident that we could have easily pipped that last place position 

[Seed22]

1 hour ago, MoonSheep said:

i have to say, i’m disappointed to see that CoH is several spots from the bottom

 

it shows that the reviewer hasn’t really done much research - if they had spent time on the forums, got to know some of us and looked a bunch of the everyday discussions on here i’m confident that we could have easily pipped that last place position 

No, they did plenty of research. But it wasn’t based on any concrete data or scientific analysis, it was, as he stated VERY early on in the video if you saw it, that it was based on a bunch of videos and some articles from both major and minor sites. 
 

Alls to say, it wasn’t anything concrete. I dunno, if he interacted with these forums, he’d have to interact with ALL forums. You all are biased here for CoH, which, I mean makes sense given its the CoH forums. If you’re biased, what do you think other community forums are like? 
 

Look, you didn’t like the video because it put your favorite game low on a list. That doesn’t make his video bad or y’all’s opinion on where it should be ranked any more or less valid. 
 

It’s literally almost a satirical meme tier video that for some reason has a few here’s jimmy’s in a ruffle.

 

Hell, I’ve told some of you here who read the video game section of the forums about games that I consider absolute bangers of this year releases and last year’s releases, and have been met with dismissals. Didn’t wig out, just shrugged and went back to playing the games I enjoy. 

 

If anything, like Ronin said before, you want it to rank higher? Get it more visibility. Get CoH more favorable articles. That’ll see it ranked way higher. It’s not like he hates the game, it just, based on his criterion, fell to that rank. It is what it is 🤷🏾‍♂️

 

Edited December 28, 2024 by Seed22

[MoonSheep]

5 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

No, they did plenty of research. But it wasn’t based on any concrete data or scientific analysis, it was, as he stated VERY early on in the video if you saw it, that it was based on a bunch of videos and some articles from both major and minor sites. 
 

Alls to say, it wasn’t anything concrete. I dunno, if he interacted with these forums, he’d have to interact with ALL forums. You all are biased here for CoH, which, I mean makes sense given its the CoH forums. If you’re biased, what do you think other community forums are like? 
 

Look, you didn’t like the video because it put your favorite game low on a list. That doesn’t make his video bad or y’all’s opinion on where it should be ranked any more or less valid. 
 

It’s literally almost a satirical meme tier video that for some reason has a few here’s jimmy’s in a ruffle.

 

Hell, I’ve told some of you here who read the video game section of the forums about games that I consider absolute bangers of this year releases and last year’s releases, and have been met with dismissals. Didn’t wig out, just shrugged and went back to playing the games I enjoy. 

 

read my post again 😛

[Seed22]

4 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

read my post again 😛

I got the sentiment the first time, but my post addressed your first point of him not doing research along with the comment about interacting with the forums. I’d appreciate you taking your own advice when it comes to my post. It’s a long one but it addresses everything and then some.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Seed22

[MoonSheep]

Just now, Seed22 said:

No need. Read mine as many times as you need

 

i think you’ve missed the joke in the last line of the post