How to make a simple version of Open World PVP that people can toggle...

[Xalon]

I've always wanted to have hero vs villain battles in all the zones. We have the Arena matches and the full PVP zones. But what about something for all zones?

 

Since many don't want to PVP, we can't have a full open world pvp, but maybe we can have a small version of it.

 

How?

 

Let players DUEL others. 1 can invite another to a duel and have 1v1 battle. Or a team can "duel" another team, up to 6v6. And wherever the duel is accepted, 100m in every direction becomes their duel area. If a player leaves that area, the duel ends with the one who stayed in the area getting the win. 

 

And to have more people take part in it, just have a simple reward, like 2 merits per win, 1 merit per loss. Even with such a small amount, you can earn a lot by getting into more duels. 

 

If this can implemented, even temporarily like a seasonal activity or just in one zone to start "Khalisti Wharf please" I think it would bring a lot more excitement to all areas. And because no one is forced to do it, PVE players won't cry and complain about it. 

 

 

What are your thoughts, pvpers?  

 

 

 

[Troo]

Open world: We have PvP zones

Duel: We have arena

At one point we could watch arena matches as a spectator, can we not do that now?

Rewards: Too easily exploitable.

 

There is much that has been given to PvP and we can see the fruits of those efforts.

For years in Siren's Call I have seen maybe 3 others. I do my event hunts in Warburg and it is even less used.

 

I'm not saying all pvp ideas are bad. This one though.. how would the divergent PvP rules/settings be reconciled with PvE in non-PvP zones?

 

Might we be better severed eliminating the special PvP rules/settings? 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 11:56 PM by Troo

[Aracknight]

Didn't like this model in SWG,  don't like it here.  Sorry my friend, but it's a hard pass for me.

 

One could foresee an unending series of popups saying "Accept duel?" leading to griefing.  Then comes a request for auto-decline.  Then comes carving out areas where dueling simply can't be done to preserve areas for roleplay, leveling, etc. Then the asks for duels to be restricted to 2-3 levels in difference, so that incarnates dont slaughter people in Atlas park who don't know any better.  How do we handle sudden duel requests changing the way our powers work, as pve and pvp work fairly differently.  Then the tells calling people names for not accepting duels.  

 

I like to believe that the CO* community is better than all that but... I think I've seen too much to think this is nice.

 

However, i believe this thread will soon be moved to suggestions and feedback section where we learn (again) that forum pvp is the dominant pvp.

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 11:54 PM by Aracknight

[Riverdusk]

16 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

Didn't like this model in SWG,  don't like it here.  Sorry my friend, but it's a hard pass for me.

 

One could foresee an unending series of popups saying "Accept duel?" leading to griefing.  Then comes a request for auto-decline.  Then comes carving out areas where dueling simply can't be done to preserve areas for roleplay, leveling, etc.

 

 

 

First things I thought of.  I wouldn't want to see a popup for this ever, as I'd have zero interest in ever doing it.   Second thing I thought of, I wouldn't want to see the area around say central Atlas park full of duels going on while I'm trying to level up, use vendors, or other things in peace.  So yeah, immediately had some of the reactions you predicted.   

 

Even if it was opened up it'd still need a lot of limits and no duel zones within zones.  To those not interested it is more likely to bring "annoyance", not "excitement".   

[Snarky]

[JKCarrier]

1 hour ago, Aracknight said:

One could foresee an unending series of popups saying "Accept duel?" leading to griefing.  Then comes a request for auto-decline.  Then comes carving out areas where dueling simply can't be done to preserve areas for roleplay, leveling, etc. Then the asks for duels to be restricted to 2-3 levels in difference, so that incarnates dont slaughter people in Atlas park who don't know any better.  How do we handle sudden duel requests changing the way our powers work, as pve and pvp work fairly differently.  Then the tells calling people names for not accepting duels.  

 

All of this. The potential for abuse and griefing is huge. I genuinely feel bad for PvPers, and wish they could have a version of the game that they could enjoy. But keep that stuff far, far away from me.

[Aracknight]

29 minutes ago, JKCarrier said:

 

All of this. The potential for abuse and griefing is huge. I genuinely feel bad for PvPers, and wish they could have a version of the game that they could enjoy. But keep that stuff far, far away from me.

 

A lot of truth to this.  Those that primarily PVE got their game back.  When weighed against the changes to PVP that were made in...I13 was it maybe?  The ones that changed how everything worked?  In all honesty and sympathy, PVPers never got their game back the way we did.

[Triumphant]

They have this in Star Wars The Old Republic.  You can invite another character to a friendly duel.  I've never had anyone ask me to duel (nor extended the offer to anyone else).  If I remember correctly, there is also a toggle in settings that allows you to always accept or decline the duels, similar to how you can go to Null-the-Gull here, and decline other players travel powers or the tarot power.

As long as it was set up like that, where you could opt out of it if you wanted, I have nothing against the idea.

[UltraAlt]

6 hours ago, Xalon said:

What are your thoughts, pvpers?  

 

This was brought up back before the Sunset. I think it was something that the game couldn't handle.

PvP was added the game after the game was created, and that is part of the problem with PvP in City of Heroes in general.

 

PvP is Zone or instance based.

Arenas allow characters to PvP in PvE zones by entering an instance.

I believe that you can set up bases now to be PvP zones but I don't know how (and wouldn't myself). I guess ask @Dacy or @Easter Bunny

 

The PvP zones are actually "open world", they just aren't PvE open world.

You can do missions in PvP that are PvP related.

I haven't tried, but I think that you still get PvE enemy defeat credit in PvP zones.

 

 

It some something that happens in DC Universe Online if you have flag set to accept duel invites (and I think skirmish invites - aka team vs team).

You can also set to be in PvP or PvE mode. It seems at this point DCUO has it setup so some zones have phases that are PvE and others PvP. I liked it better when they were combined as there were more players running around in the zone and you wouldn't be able to tell if someone running past you was targetable or not without the mini-map indicating that they were enemies.

I used to love picking a fight and strafe around fighting. If they had me on the ropes, I would dodge my way back to an open world AV that would help me finish them off. Not very heroic, but I was playing a villian when I was doing this. It was in one of my favorite areas in a leveling zone. With the changes to phases that are PvP or PvE and the push to play higher level combat, my favorite area is pretty free of player targets.

Or simply going to a where a bunch of heroes are standing outside of a police station and just start throwing cars at them from down the street which usually lead to my character being defeated pretty quickly, but it was fun nonetheless.

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 05:39 AM by UltraAlt

[Jacke]

8 hours ago, Aracknight said:

Didn't like this model in SWG,  don't like it here.  Sorry my friend, but it's a hard pass for me.

 

One could foresee an unending series of popups saying "Accept duel?" leading to griefing.  Then comes a request for auto-decline.  Then comes carving out areas where dueling simply can't be done to preserve areas for roleplay, leveling, etc. Then the asks for duels to be restricted to 2-3 levels in difference, so that incarnates dont slaughter people in Atlas park who don't know any better.  How do we handle sudden duel requests changing the way our powers work, as pve and pvp work fairly differently.  Then the tells calling people names for not accepting duels. 

 

I used to play SWTOR (probably put the most hours into it after City; will likely play it again some day).  It has PvE and PvP systems that are very similar.  And also the possibility of Open World PvP.  And it had all those options that @Aracknight mention that Open World PvP needs to just not be a griefing system.

 

It's unfortunate, but those measures are almost certainly necessary.

[Ghost]

We already have PvP zones where barely any PvP takes place.  So the idea is to expand it???

 

I thought expansion was for popular things.

[Skyhawke]

Yeah, from time to time you'll see someone in the LFG chat spamming taunts/requests for people to PVP them because they're really the best by golly. Now imagine getting spammed with "Captain Assface has challenged you to a duel" over and over. 

 

I agree with others: keep your chocolate outta my peanut butter.  COH players are predominately PVE players and we have PVP zones/arenas already for those that like to have pixelated slap fights. 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:02 PM by Skyhawke

[Marine X]

On Champions Online I had someone follow me around for 2 hours while I was trying to complete an open world hunt, killing all my targets and constantly challenging me to Duel them.

I had told them no repeatedly but they decided they could provoke me by interfering in my mission. That was the last time I ever played that game. So Not interested.

[High_Beam]

[MoonSheep]

i see that this is not desired so i’m going to contribute some suggestions which are much more unpalatable:

 

- if more than 5 people click ‘duel’ on a target, they become vulnerable to PvP mode. if that many people want to duel someone then it must surely be for a good reason

- atlas park will become a PvP zone without notice several times a day for a maximum of 30 seconds

- if you make a bad power choice at ms lib, she becomes an enemy lvl 54 AV and lashes out at everyone around her

- the globe above atlas plaza has not been well maintained during the near decade long CoH hiatus. as a result, it occasionally rolls away, crushing everyone in its path

[Ukase]

13 hours ago, Xalon said:

What are your thoughts, pvpers?  

I don't believe there is enough interest in pvp to consider spending time on it. If people were interested in pvp, they would pvp. Most do not.

 

We spend 50 levels learning our characters, and when we get to the pvp zones, our defense, our resistance, many of our attributes are different. It's an entirely different character. So what kind of person enters into a fight having little to no idea what the strengths and weaknesses of their own character are? I have no desire to use mids to see these attributes when there are occasional problems with the numbers for pve. I've no reason to expect pvp numbers to be any more reliable. I've no desire to go Brainstorm and try things out for a pvp build when the interest in it is very small. The juice isn't worth the squeeze.

And the idea of a reward merit or 2 for winning, what's to stop someone from defeating their alt account 100 times a day? 

I'm not saying PvP couldn't use some serious thought and attention. It could! The problem is what I said at the beginning. It just doesn't work the way it is. I don't see a path to make it work in its current form unless there are rewards to incentivize people to do it as it is. And given the state of the games economy, there are already plenty of rewards out there people can earn without having to relearn their character with new attributes in a pvp environment. I'm not smart enough to know what could, if anything fix pvp for CoH. I just know it's not a lot of fun the way it is. 

I would venture about 90% of the players wouldn't do pvp on a whim. Some might give it a try for a chance to win a provocation or something like that. The problem is it would be too easy for a multi-boxer to take advantage of such a prize, or even two players who are friends that could just trade off clobbering each other for the fat loot, whatever it might be. 

 

[Darmian]

Hmm. I don't play for PVP, not my thing.  But it is for others.

 

We have Arenas.  Why not have WWE style matches?  The "sport" of a city filled with super-powered people could be a version of that.  Reported by the Newsies!  The Red Daggers scored a decisive win over the Atlas Legion in last Saturday's Cage Match!  Now with X points on the board the only thing between them and victory is the Penitence League and their 9 match winning streak!

 

Different levels = different weight categories! One on one! Monday Night Footb...Superfight!

 

Yellow titles for the winners! Merits?  Nope.  Open to abuse.  

 

Other than that?  I dunno.  I'd personally convert all but Recluse's Victory into PVE myself given the option.  Especially Warburg.

[Ravenplume]

2 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

- the globe above atlas plaza has not been well maintained during the near decade long CoH hiatus. as a result, it occasionally rolls away, crushing everyone in its path

 

And everyone it rolls over gets Top Dog (if for some reason they haven't already got it)  :)

[lemming]

18 minutes ago, Ravenplume said:

 

And everyone it rolls over gets Top Dog (if for some reason they haven't already got it)  🙂

Flat Dog

[Troo]

5 hours ago, Ghost said:

I thought expansion was for popular things.

 

Ghost, Ghost, Ghost.. 'expansion' is a pretext to 'fix' things that aren't broken and/or force players to play a particular way.. shit.. this request is going to happen now. 

[srmalloy]

13 hours ago, Aracknight said:

A lot of truth to this.  Those that primarily PVE got their game back.  When weighed against the changes to PVP that were made in...I13 was it maybe?  The ones that changed how everything worked?  In all honesty and sympathy, PVPers never got their game back the way we did.

PvP players got their game back; the rogue servers got reinstantiated from the SCORE code as it was, including all of the PvP zones and content. What they didn't get back was enough other PVPers to make PvP worthwhile spending the time to build and level characters for PvP -- the vast majority of the people returning to Homecoming were the PvE players, of whom only a tiny fraction had any interest in PvP, and generally entered PvP zones only for grabbing the exploration badges (for the 5 merits per zone for grabbing them all) and the PvE-useful content like getting Shivans.

[Troo]

24 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

What they didn't get back was enough other PVPers to make PvP worthwhile spending the time to build and level characters for PvP

 

I can't argue with "the vast majority of the people returning to Homecoming were the PvE players"

 

I can point out that there are more former PvP players playing than folks might think. There are definitely more former PvP players than current PvP players.

 

I will continue to point to the divergent rule set as potential disincentive and why I don't participate more.

Still, I have used the Homecoming PvP zones more than most (mainly soloing). {maybe I am veering too off topic}

[El D]

13 hours ago, Aracknight said:

A lot of truth to this.  Those that primarily PVE got their game back.  When weighed against the changes to PVP that were made in...I13 was it maybe?  The ones that changed how everything worked?  In all honesty and sympathy, PVPers never got their game back the way we did.

 

I'll echo the sympathy for the players who lost the aspect of the game they enjoyed most and felt forced to moved on or move out - that totally sucks - but 'pre-Issue 13 PvP' only lasted for about two and a half years. Which means that for said PvPers, CoX hasn't been their game for the majority of its playable lifespan and chronologically hasn't been their game for most of 20 years. It's like those 'the game was better pre-ED' comments versus how long IOs have been around. That initial iteration of PvP has been dead for far longer than it ever lived, to the point that the current arrangement of has been the default setting for three times as long (which is basically what @srmalloy said regarding interest being nil, the community being minimal, and the zones only used for badges/buffs/battlestar galactica).

 

Also, remembering the vocal cohort of PvPers who stuck around on the PvP and PWNZ forums after the exodus... they aren't emblematic of every PvPer, but the ones who decided to make their grievances everyone else's problem gave PvP a rep for a reason (and likely as not killed any lingering dev interest in PvP on Live). Which circles back around to OP's initial post, specifically requesting investment from both devs and other players then chiming in with the 'PVE players won't cry and complain about it' bit. That attitude was tiresome back on the Live and it's even more stale now. Enticing folks to support open world PvP probably shouldn't include an approach that makes them glad it's cordoned off.

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

I will continue to point to the divergent rule set as potential disincentive and why I don't participate more.

That's a significant contributing factor, since you essentially have to level a character in PvE, then create a significantly different build for the character to fit the differences between PvE and PvP mechanics, and then learn and internalize those differences as they affect play, for you to be effective as a PvP player. It sets a fairly high hurdle, and having the experienced PvPers repeatedly tear you a "structurally superfluous new behind" when you first venture into a PvP zone (assuming that you actually encounter someone in the zone) can be discouraging to potential new PvPers.

[Troo]

@El D "Recovering Altaholic" = awesome