knockback Enhancement Sets for Knockback Powers

[Sunsette]

(Is anyone here getting semantic satiation out of the word 'Knockback'? Just me?)

 

The Problem

So there have been a lot of Knockback threads, and my personal pet peeve is that KB to KD IOs tend to be a bit of an IO tax on high, random knockback powers that people want to use constructively. I've previously suggested a powerset revision myself, but it occurred to me in the shower that there was an easier way of dealing with the problems. First, let's review the problems with Knockback. If you're not interested in reviewing my ennumerated list of current problems, you can skip down to 'The Proposal' below.

 

A) Can scatter groups of mobs, weakening the effectiveness of AoE powers.

B) Can move an individual mob, forcing melee who were on it to chase.

C) When it occurs randomly, it's difficult to selectively use it. Knocked back mobs are resistant to further KB, so a random low magnitude knock can prevent an effective knock when you need it.

 

Now, let's look at various solutions (current and commonly proposed) and their problems:

 

D) Knockback to Knockdown IOs in Knockback Sets

SOLVES: A, B

PROBLEM: Effectively removes an IO that you may have wanted to use for something else. These can potentially be significant.

STATUS: Good, but unfair to tax a whole powerset this way. People end up skipping these on single target powers usually for a reason.

 

E) Shoot the mob from above or when they're already against a wall.

SOLVES: A (sometimes), B (sometimes)

PROBLEM: Myriad. Low ceilings, aerial enemies, forces flight as a power, time spent positioning is time spent not killing, foes aren't always next to walls, flying is a bad idea in some incarnate content. It adds up if you have to do it all the time.

STATUS: Okay, but not reliable.

 

F) Lining up shots on foes recovering from a knockdown

SOLVES: A, B, C

PROBLEM: You already need a reliable source of knockdown on the target or targets you're going to hit, constraining you to work after that power's cooldown. The second attack you're using has to animate fast enough to actually hit during the animation.

STATUS: I've done it, usually not worth the effort.

 

G) Use an AoE immobilize with KB protection or resistance.

SOLVES: A, B (usually. I have knocked back enemies under AoE immobs that have both when I've used multiple high mag shots in short succession, but it happens very rarely, like not even a percent of the time).

PROBLEM: Sentinels, Controllers, and Dominators can do this on their own, but not most Blasters, Corruptors, or Defenders. Not all AoE immobs (none in the Sentinel set) offer KB resistance without protection, effectively meaning you've used a power to negate all of your primary's auxiliary effect entirely.

STATUS: This is my current primary tactic but believe it or not I do actually enjoy knocking things back! It's fun, I just want more control over it.

 

H) (Proposed, only) Null the Gull Setting

SOLVES: A, B

PROBLEM:

i) Can this even be done? Very hard to predict, not sure there's a precedent. Would need to be a global Knockback multiplier.

ii) Doesn't allow for fine control over individual powers you may want to knock.

 

I) (Proposed, only) Change existing sets to reduce randomness and focus on strategic skill of KB.

SOLVES: A, B, C

PROBLEM:

i) Some people like the RNG Status Quo

ii) It may be difficult in the coding

 

---

The Proposal

 

We have to find some way to enhance damaging knockback powers without unduly enhancing knockdown powers, which are overwhelmingly melee, or giving too many benefits to support powers. Knockback improvements can be pursued as either additional single Knockback Enhancements that are powerful, making them compatible with sets that are strong at the five-piece set bonus, or by making new sets that are worth slotting all the way. Currently, there are no sets in the Knockback category which are routinely recommended for five-slotting, and only one that is rarely recommended for six-slotting. In consideration of these points, there are three parts to this proposal:

 

1. An alteration to Sudden Acceleration.
2. New Knockback Enhancement sets.
3. New damage sets that enhance knockback.

---

1. Sudden Acceleration

 

I would like to swap the 5- and 6-piece set bonuses, so that global recharge is granted by the 5-piece and HP is granted by the 6-piece.

 

What follows below is a statistical overview of the set as it currently is.

Piece	Set Bonus
Knockback/Recharge	1pc: N/A
Knockback/Damage/Recharge	2pc: 7.5% bonus move speeds
Knockback/Damage/Endurance	3pc: 2.25% bonus endurance
Knockback/Accuracy/Damage	4pc: 2.5% global damage buff
Knockback/Accuracy	5pc: 2.25% hit point bonus
Knockback to Knockdown	6pc: 7.5% global recharge speed

 

A level 50 set grants the following bonuses:

Category	Base Bonus	+5 Boost
Accuracy	47.70%	59.62%
Damage	63.60%	79.50%1
Endurance	21.20%	26.50%
Recharge	47.70%	59.62%
Knockback	111.54%	139.43%1

¹ This is the raw value. The real number is slightly reduced by the effects of enhancement diversification. (Green zone)

 

Note that this set does not cap anything, and even with an appropriate alpha slot enhancement, it only gets close to the cap on Damage -- staying in the 'yellow zone' on Mids. It is not a compelling set to take beyond one piece for any reason; while all of its set bonuses are good, you're locked into six slots to get the best option there, and your power will neither knock people far back, nor will it reach its highest potential in damage. As it stands, the 2-, 3-, 4-, and 5-piece set bonuses just aren't worth interrupting a better set, even in the notoriously underwhelming Single-Target Ranged Attack set options. Furthermore, the +2.25% HP set bonus is already available in Devastation (3-piece Ranged Damage), Eradication (4-piece PBAoE Damage), Shield Wall (3-piece Defense), and Gladiator's Armor (5-piece Resistance), which are all more popular options for survival already, for various reasons. There is little compelling reason to believe that many were five-slotting Sudden Acceleration for the health bonus and would be upset to get a recharge bonus instead.

 

While Sudden Acceleration is unlikely to become a top choice if the swap between the 5- and 6-piece bonuses is made, it becomes a reasonable one to make in situations where a power absolutely needs Knockback to Knockdown, can spare a few percent of damage, but can't spare global recharge bonuses.

 

UPDATE: I would also like to suggest that Sudden Acceleration's IO receive a +accuracy/damage/endurance component; Schedule A, split IO. By being a four-way split it ensures that this set still doesn't receive full benefits of damage compared to a pure damage set, while acc and end are relatively negligible bonuses on high end builds. It also makes the IO more compelling at low level builds.

---

2. New Knockback Sets

 

Escape Velocity - Very Rare (Level 50)

Almost every control condition has a very rare set of its own, and it's time for Knockback to join their ranks! Escape Velocity is an improved combination of Force Feedback and Sudden Acceleration, the way most Very Rare sets are improved versions of a Rare set. As with all Very Rare sets, all pieces are unique.

 

Piece	Enhancement Bonus (+5 Boost)	Set Bonus
Knockback/RechargeU	59.6 (74.5) / 33.1 (41.4)	1pc: N/A
Knockback/DamageU	59.6 (74.5) / 33.1 (41.4)	2pc: 4% Endurance Recovery1
Knockback/Damage/EnduranceU	47.7 (59.6) / 26.5 (33.1) / 26.5 (33.1)	3pc: 6% Resist (Fire/Cold), 10% Mez Resist1
Knockback/Accuracy/DamageU	47.7 (59.6) / 26.5 (33.1) / 26.5 (33.1)	4pc: 15% global accuracy bonus1
Knockback/AccuracyU	59.6 (74.5) / 33.1 (41.4)	5pc: 10% global recharge speed1
Knockback/Chance for Power UpU	95.5 (119.375) / 2.5 PPM	6pc: 4% global damage buff2

¹ A common set bonus for Very Rares.

² At least one other Very Rare doesn't give resistance for the sixth slot. Amenable to changing this to something else.

^U Designates a unique enhancement.

 

Category	Base Bonus	+5 Boost
Accuracy	59.62%	74.5%
Damage	86.10%1	107.6%2
Endurance	26.50%	33.1%
Recharge	33.1%	41.4%
Knockback	369.7%2	462.1%2 3

¹ This is the raw value. The real number is slightly reduced by the effects of enhancement diversification. (Green zone)

² This is the raw value. The real number is heavily reduced by the effects of enhancement diversification. (Red zone)

³ For the curious: after ED this comes out to 210.3%. This is enough to turn a knockdown into Mag 2.1, or Nova into Mag 51.5. 

 

In comparison to Sudden Acceleration, Escape Velocity swaps some of the enhancement recharge for Damage, ensuring a full damage cap and allowing recharge to be entirely skipped if wanted. Endurance remains low, as is common in many Very Rare sets. Chance for Power Up works similarly to chance for Build-Up as in Decimation and Gaussian's except that it's Power-Up from Energy Assault -- a smaller damage boost, but a huge utility boost. The proc is given a Schedule D single (not split) enhancement in order to discourage its casual use in sets that prefer knockdown without also being used with Sudden Acceleration.

---

Fusionette's Fury - Rare (Levels 30 to 50)

Not all categories have a set named for an iconic character, but Knockback doesn't have one yet, so why not? Fusionette's Fury follows the same philosophy as above of making knockback sets more desirable by pairing them with beneficial other effects which you cannot escape. Fusionette's Fury is patterned after Force Feedback, allowing four regular enhancements to carry Knockback, in addition to the one on the proc effect, for reasons described under Escape Velocity. In fact, this set is the reason why the Very Rare set calculates Knockback on its Proc as a Single IO rather than a Dual IO -- at level 30, a Dual IO on Schedule D would not be enough to enhance Knockdown to Knockback.

 

Chance for Disorient works as usual for Disorients, but with a higher trigger rate. If you need a lockdown effect you can just spam this set on your knockbacks and ensure that they never fail. 

 

Piece	Enhancement Bonus (+5 Boost)	Set Bonus
Knockback/Damage	47.7 (59.6) / 26.5 (33.1)	1pc: N/A
Knockback/Accuracy	47.7 (59.6) / 26.5 (33.1)	2pc: 1.35% endurance bonus
Damage/Endurance	26.5 (33.1) / 26.5 (33.1)	3pc: 7.5% movement speed bonus
Knockback/Accuracy/Damage	38.2 (47.7) / 21.2 (26.5) / 21.2 (26.5)	4pc: 2.5% global damage bonus
Knockback/Endurance/Recharge	38.2 (47.7) / 21.2 (26.5) / 21.2 (26.5)	5pc: 6.25% global recharge speed
Knockback/Chance for Disorient	76.4 (95.5) / 3.5 PPM	6pc: 9% movement speed bonus

^U Designates a unique enhancement.

 

Category	Base Bonus	+5 Boost
Accuracy	47.7%	59.6%
Damage	74.31	92.9%2
Endurance	47.7%	59.6%
Recharge	21.2%	26.5%
Knockback	248.2%3	310.3%3

¹ This is the raw value. The real number is slightly reduced by the effects of enhancement diversification. (Green zone)

² This is the raw value. The real number is moderately reduced by the effects of enhancement diversification. (Yellow zone)

³ This is the raw value. The real number is heavily reduced by the effects of enhancement diversification. (Red zone)

 

Compared to Sudden Acceleration, Fusionette's Fury has a bit more damage, getting close to the territory of a true damage set -- however, its set bonuses are markedly worse by most standards, having niche application outside of the good, but not exceptional, 5-piece bonus.

---

Ballistic Dismissal - Uncommon (Levels 10 to 20) 

A set for when you really want people to get out of your face, Ballistic Dismissal pairs your knockback with a powerful repel. By coming online at level 10 as an uncommon, it's fairly accessible for ranged characters who need a panic button beginning at level 7. The proc is unique to prevent repel abuse.

 

Piece	Enhancement Bonus (+5 Boost)	Set Bonus
Knockback/Endurance	28.9 (36.1) / 16 (20)	1pc: N/A
Knockback/Accuracy	28.9 (36.1) / 16 (20)	2pc: 3% movement speed bonus
Knockback to Knockdown/RepelU	Mag 8 Repel, ∞ PPM	3pc: 0.75% hit point bonus

^U Designates a unique enhancement.

 

Again, went for something very different here. The unique turns unreliable knockback effects like Energy Torrent into reliable crowd pushers that can redirect part of the fight where you need it to go.

---

3. New Damage Sets that Enhance Knockback (?)

 

New Enhancement Sets that include unique Knockback IOs. Why damage sets? Well, by targeting these specifically, we can exclude melee from getting benefits they really don't need. The question I'm not sure of is if these are still needed; these were part of my original proposal, but I feel the above two parts supersede these sets by addressing the situation in a more elegant way, and three sets is already a lot to add at once. Are any more sets still necessary? The relevant part from the original post is quoted below for posterity.

 

On 7/12/2019 at 7:27 AM, Sunsette said:

RANGED DAMAGE SETS:

Unique IO (Set 1): Knockback to Mag 3 Disorient. Multiplies KB in the power by 0 and replaces it with 3 PPM Disorient.

Reasoning: Ranged powers tend to have more knockback to begin with, and Disorient is a relatively uncommon and less favored condition, reducing high abuse. 3 PPM means only a relatively slow attack will have a good chance of reliably activating it.

Issues: I don't believe any enhancements currently actually detect if a power has knockback, they just add a multiplier to existing knockback. So this is adding a 3 PPM proc to all ranged as an option, it's just that it won't cost a KBer an extra IO to turn it into knockdown. I don't think this is broken -- ranged damage has very few proc IOs to begin with -- but it is worth noting.

 

Unique IO (Set 2): Knockback to Knockdown with 3 PPM damage proc.

Reasoning: Just a better version of sudden acceleration. Unique prevents too much abuse.

Issues: I don't believe any enhancements currently actually detect if a power has knockback, they just add a multiplier to existing knockback. So this is adding a 3 PPM proc to all ranged as an option, it's just that it won't cost a KBer an extra IO to turn it into knockdown. I don't think this is broken -- ranged damage has very few proc IOs to begin with -- but it is worth noting.

 

TARGETED AOE DAMAGE SET:

Unique IO: Knockback to Knockdown with 3 PPM damage proc.

Reasoning: Just a better version of sudden acceleration. Unique prevents too much abuse. Unfortunately, it makes Bonfire EVEN BETTER. AKJSKDS. I couldn't find a way around that. Thankfully Bonfire has not been shown to benefit a lot from PPM; see also Force Feedback: Chance for Recharge at 2 PPM which people have found disappointing in Bonfire.

Issues: I don't believe any enhancements currently actually detect if a power has knockback, they just add a multiplier to existing knockback. So this is adding a 3 PPM proc to all targeted AoE as an option, it's just that it won't cost a KBer an extra IO to turn it into knockdown. I don't think this is broken -- targeted AoE has very few proc IOs to begin with -- but it is worth noting.\

 

I have intentionally not provided a PBAoE version because:

- PBAoEs already get very, very powerful IOs choices and sets.

- PBAoEs are very likely to be knockdown-based rather than knockback to begin with.

- PBAoEs that knockback rather than knockdown are good enough to use anyway most of the time, so better to err on the side of safety, I think. Use regular KB to KD for those.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Sunsette

[justicebeliever]

As always, very well thought out.  I'm sure someone will have criticisms (constructive I hope), but I am /signed.  And +1 Inf

[Sunsette]

Thanks for the vote of confidence! :)

 

I've updated this a bit for some additional clarity regarding some things.

[Galaxy Brain]

+1

 

If not mechanical changes, adding way more variety on how to "customize" knockback would be great!

[Nyghtmaire]

+1 for semantic satiation (and the well-considered proposal). More options!!

[KaizenSoze]

+1

[Sunsette]

Opening post updated to reflect some new thoughts I've had.

[Voldine]

3 hours ago, Sunsette said:

Opening post updated to reflect some new thoughts I've had.

I think you have a slight misunderstanding of how procs work with your suggestion of a KB to KD ALSO giving a better version of the force feedback recharge proc.

 

The recharge proc isn't a set bonus for six-slotting with the set, it's the active property of the 6th enhancement itself. This one enhancement can be slotted by itself and the proc would still function just fine.

 

Of course, I did just finish working third shift, so there's a chance I've misunderstood your addendum to the first post. In that case I offer an apology, but would appreciate further clarification of your addendum in a response either way.

[Sunsette]

13 minutes ago, Voldine said:

I think you have a slight misunderstanding of how procs work with your suggestion of a KB to KD ALSO giving a better version of the force feedback recharge proc.

 

The recharge proc isn't a set bonus for six-slotting with the set, it's the active property of the 6th enhancement itself. This one enhancement can be slotted by itself and the proc would still function just fine.

 

Of course, I did just finish working third shift, so there's a chance I've misunderstood your addendum to the first post. In that case I offer an apology, but would appreciate further clarification of your addendum in a response either way.

I understand that normally, a proc basically gives a hidden auto power that grants a passive global bonus. This would be the first set bonus that applies a proc to the power itself, and I'm not entirely sure it's workable, now that you mention it -- but I intentionally wanted it to be tied to the set bonus as a limiter on the effect.

[Voldine]

Just now, Sunsette said:

I understand that normally, a proc basically gives a hidden auto power that grants a passive global bonus. This would be the first set bonus that applies a proc to the power itself, and I'm not entirely sure it's workable, now that you mention it -- but I intentionally wanted it to be tied to the set bonus as a limiter on the effect.

I'm pretty sure that it's not possible to make the proc part of the set bonus, because set bonuses are global effects. A proc bonus would thus trigger off of ANY power that could possibly trigger it versus a proc-hancement being specifically tied to the power it is slotted into.

[Sunsette]

Just now, Voldine said:

I'm pretty sure that it's not possible to make the proc part of the set bonus, because set bonuses are global effects. A proc bonus would thus trigger off of ANY power that could possibly trigger it versus a proc-hancement being specifically tied to the power it is slotted into.

I think it could be doable by actually making it a hidden property of the proc IO that fires invisibly but only gives a benefit if an auto power for the 6p is done, but I don't know what variables the procs are allowed to call and if searching for this variable would cause mass slowdown, etc.

If it's not, I amend the proposal to not have a knockback to knockdown component at all.

[Yoru-hime]

I really appreciate your efforts to keep the knockback problem front and center.

 

It DOES keep me from rolling up certain characters, not so much that I think others are going to be nasty (our community is generally awesome), but I don't want to have to deal with fighting the side effects of my own powers as well as the enemies in front of me.

 

Putting this into IOs would give someone the option of multiple builds if they wanted one for teams that aren't really well suited to KB and one for soloing or teams that embrace the chaos. Null could have the same effect of a KD/KB switch, but at the cost of being able to fine tune how each one works.

[_NOPE_]

[izuzerea]

+1 

I have a human only PeaceBringer and have destroyed my build to accommodate the crazy amount of knockback in that AT. So I thank you for your well thought out post.

 

I would like to add another option, which is to create a single Unique IO that gives a global KB -> KD effect perhaps retool Overwhelming Force: Damage/KB to KD to be a global effect. 

 

Pros

- Freedom of still slotting sets you want but leaving 1 power to be your mule for this IO.

Cons

- Unable to customize individual powers depending on players preference. 

 

[Sunsette]

Since this appears to be fairly convincing as-is, I will take some time today to edit the opening post with more specific proposals complete with numbers for evaluation. 

 

Below are the original sets of proposals for archival purposes.

---

On 7/12/2019 at 7:27 AM, Sunsette said:

THE PROPOSAL

 

New Enhancement Sets that include unique Knockback IOs. Some of these are damage sets rather than KB sets. Why damage sets? Melee can get the benefit of knockback sets in knockdown powers, but melee powers are usually better designed when it comes to knockback to begin with, so it should be handled differently. This also limits weird potential effects with non-damaging AoE toggles.

 

RANGED DAMAGE SETS:

Unique IO (Set 1): Knockback to Mag 3 Disorient. Multiplies KB in the power by 0 and replaces it with 3 PPM Disorient.

Reasoning: Ranged powers tend to have more knockback to begin with, and Disorient is a relatively uncommon and less favored condition, reducing high abuse. 3 PPM means only a relatively slow attack will have a good chance of reliably activating it.

Issues: I don't believe any enhancements currently actually detect if a power has knockback, they just add a multiplier to existing knockback. So this is adding a 3 PPM proc to all ranged as an option, it's just that it won't cost a KBer an extra IO to turn it into knockdown. I don't think this is broken -- ranged damage has very few proc IOs to begin with -- but it is worth noting.

 

Unique IO (Set 2): Knockback to Knockdown with 3 PPM damage proc.

Reasoning: Just a better version of sudden acceleration. Unique prevents too much abuse.

Issues: I don't believe any enhancements currently actually detect if a power has knockback, they just add a multiplier to existing knockback. So this is adding a 3 PPM proc to all ranged as an option, it's just that it won't cost a KBer an extra IO to turn it into knockdown. I don't think this is broken -- ranged damage has very few proc IOs to begin with -- but it is worth noting.

 

TARGETED AOE DAMAGE SET:

Unique IO: Knockback to Knockdown with 3 PPM damage proc.

Reasoning: Just a better version of sudden acceleration. Unique prevents too much abuse. Unfortunately, it makes Bonfire EVEN BETTER. AKJSKDS. I couldn't find a way around that. Thankfully Bonfire has not been shown to benefit a lot from PPM; see also Force Feedback: Chance for Recharge at 2 PPM which people have found disappointing in Bonfire.

Issues: I don't believe any enhancements currently actually detect if a power has knockback, they just add a multiplier to existing knockback. So this is adding a 3 PPM proc to all targeted AoE as an option, it's just that it won't cost a KBer an extra IO to turn it into knockdown. I don't think this is broken -- targeted AoE has very few proc IOs to begin with -- but it is worth noting.

 

KNOCKBACK SET:

Unique IO: Knockback and Repel. Multiplies existing Knockback by an amount equal to Schedule D on a split IO, and also adds a strong magnitude 8 repel effect.

Reasoning: This makes one power very reliably "get the hell out of my face", as evidenced by Ki Push and the Sentinel version of Blazing Blast.

 

UNIVERSAL DAMAGE SET:

Non-Unique: Repel to Knockdown. Multiplies existing Repel by 0 and adds a Mag 0.67 KB.

Reasoning: For people who didn't want a repel on their damage powers. Not really my main focus but it is also a common complaint.

Issues: This is basically a surefire clone of the special proc in Overwhelming Force, and as a non-unique. Unless it is actually possible to detect if Repel is on a power and not fire without that, this probably shouldn't happen. It is offered up in case that is possible.

 

I have intentionally not provided a PBAoE version because:

- PBAoEs already get very, very powerful IOs choices and sets.

- PBAoEs are very likely to be knockdown-based rather than knockback to begin with.

- PBAoEs that knockback rather than knockdown are good enough to use anyway most of the time, so better to err on the side of safety, I think. Use regular KB to KD for those.

 

---

 

An addendum proposal!

 

I've been looking at the Knockback sets all wrong. One way to address them is to come up with other single IOs that can be broadly 'sprinkled' into other builds. Another way to address them is to make them five-slot better.

 

Sudden Acceleration has its recharge bonus as the 6-piece bonus and the HP as the 5-piece. I feel comfortable guessing (though correct me if I'm wrong) that no one who's looking to stack HP bonuses goes after Sudden Acceleration. I think it would be an acceptable violation of the cottage rule to bring the recharge bonus down to position 5, buff the HP bonus to 3% HP, and put it at position 6. Because this still doesn't damage cap an attack without a damage alpha and it gives crap-all for the other benefits, you're not going to see a lot of people take it willy-nilly.

 

Finally, I would like to propose that there be a Very Rare Knockback set added. There's a Very Rare for every other type of secondary condition, so this isn't out of line. As with the other Very Rares, this would be a near straight upgrade of an existing Rare set, in this case, Sudden Acceleration. The Knockback to Knockdown bonus would be the sixth piece, and the 6 piece bonus would grant the Force Feedback: Chance for Recharge bonus on the attack but at 3.5 PPM rather than 2 PPM. This makes it a strong choice for being used on attacks that recharge relatively quickly rather than ones that recharge slowly, but prevents it from being abused without the full six slot dedication.

 

In the event that it is not possible to create a proc effect via a set bonus, then I amend this proposal to make the 3.5 PPM recharge the proc effect, slap a hefty Schedule D Knockback bonus onto it to discourage melee use, and remove Knockback to Knockdown from this VR KB set entirely.

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Sunsette

[Sunsette]

Alright, and updated with the current state of the proposal. That... was nearly four hours of writing and calculating by itself, good grief. I'm going to go take a break.

[Indystruck]

This is a great proposal. I'm all for these additions.

[Six-Six]

I'm still trying to absorb every single bit of information, and there's quite a lot to process.

Initial thoughts are, other than the obvious "outstandingly thorough work," are:

I wholeheartedly support this. I know that knockback is not as popular with players for precisely the reasons you provided. However, I for one enjoy knockback and use it (rely on it) in most of my tactics. Maybe it's my lack of other-mmo-experience type of game play, or preference to solo most of the time; I feel that having knockback as an option gives players more variety in terms of play style and not just the formulaic herd and aoe nuke. Also, I find knockback just fun in a very primal reptilian-brain way.

The set names are just perfect. period. I'm afraid the math and systems are still quite over my head as of now. While I haven't familiarised myself with purple sets, at a glance Escape Velocity seems over-powered. And given that it can only be slotted into a knockback power, it seems unfair to powers without KB. (I could be working from a wrong premise here.)

And while you're at it, another set suggestion might be a PvP variant. KB seems like it will be more effective when used on human players who tend to be more elusive and evasive as opposed to AI that will have set behaviour. Just a thought.

 

*off-topic. With all the fantastic work you've been doing, I feel you deserve a statue somewhere in-game. 😃





 

[Sunsette]

First, thanks for the kind words, Six. 😄

 

Re: Other Very Rare sets. Escape Velocity does break a few rules: it has far more enhancement on Knockback relative to Schedule D than any other set allows for any other category on their Schedules. It also enhances Damage in a way similar to how these sets usually enhance Recharge. These first two points I think have to be understood in the context that Knockback just isn't that desirable; it's probably the least used set category outside of one-and-done splashes from Force Feedback and Sudden Acceleration, neither of which increase Knockback value, and neither are especially desirable, averaging about 1.5 million influence and 2.5 million influence at the Consignment House each.

 

The proc is good, but I don't think it's as good as it seems, due to the diminishing returns of recharge the more of it you have. In order to have a 90% chance of activating Escape Velocity: Chance for Recharge, you need a single-target attack that has an animation + enhanced cooldown time of approximately 16 seconds. It lasts for 5 seconds. Without any additional global recharge, that's about +30% global recharge for you with each use of the attack, which is good, don't get me wrong, I just think it's comparable to +107 damage on a rarely resisted damage type with an even higher PPM. Even for many Scrappers, that's effectively increasing a power's damage by 50% or more. It's a good rule of thumb that due to different scaling effects, at endgame, %damage is roughly twice as valuable as an equal amount of %recharge for a damage AT. The only reason that the damage proc isn't way better is that it's specific to an attack, but with most people having a roughly four button rotation core at endgame, our rules of thumb still work out: 120% haste among four powers compared to 55% damage on one. 

 

As you get higher global recharge, the effective recharge gained from the proc increases, but the amount recharge is actually useful to you decreases. By the time you've reached perma Hasten level and can keep the effect near-perma, it'll be most useful for reducing recharge from Aim, blast set T9s, and support set T9s. It's like 1.5 second off of a melee T9 recharge at this point -- melee aren't going to miss it much.

 

I've purposely avoided making a PvP variant; I don't PvP in this game, I don't know what is wanted or expected, and truthfully, my biggest concern is that this will break something in PvP. While KB is a mixed blessing in PvE, I hear it's a win button in PvP, and Escape Velocity is enough KB that Nova can overwhelm the PvP standard of Mag 44 KB Protection. It's already quite possible for Nova to do that, but usually comes with more sacrifice of effectiveness. This is also part of why I chose to reduce the amount of recharge available to that set -- if you enhance Nova with Escape Velocity, you're trading out a LOT of uptime on it and a decent amount of damage compared to Armageddon or even Sudden Acceleration, and while Escape Velocity can compensate for that lost recharge, it's a lot less reliable in PvP since you need to be hitting a target with it every five seconds or hit at least 7 (Sent) to 16 (everyone else) targets with it slotted in Nova to do so. These are conditions that I think are unlikely to occur a lot in PvP, but again, need to actually hear from PvPers on that.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Sunsette

[Obitus]

Big fan of the new set suggestions.  To me, the big problem with knockback, post-Homecoming, is the slotting tax; new sets with decent damage values (and decent set bonuses) would alleviate that.  Null the Gull would too, but he'd prevent granular tuning. 

 

Thumbs up.

[nihilii]

I think the new sets might veer a little too far on the power scale. An improved Force Feedback proc and an additional -res proc on KB powers, hmm. But it's true a slot premium exists regardless how many good procs you can theoretically slot in a power. I like that you've kept +defense out of all the proposed sets, so it's not "have your cake and eat it too".

Null the Gull toggle and/or 100% chance to KB on everything that does KB would be pretty sweet. If we're honest, is there truly anyone who would mind a KB power knockbacking 100% of the time instead of 30% of the time, or whatever arbitrary value? I feel the most die-hard KB lover would agree the fun part of KB is sending enemies flying, not wondering whether the attack will send the enemy flying or not.

[DSorrow]

I'd definitely want to see something done to KB because I have a love-hate relationship with it.

 

• Reliable, single target, ranged KB powers? I really like them because their behavior is predictable and rarely disruptive. I slotted a full set of Stupefy into Screech on my /Sonic Defender and that had me giggling every time I used it. The high base recharge combined with the PPM of the KB proc made it work basically every time and it was just so funny seeing them get up stunned.
• Unreliable KB? Nah, especially if it's AoE. A very high chance of KB (80%+) is fine, but powers that come with 40% or similar values are just unpredictable and often seem to KB when you don't want to and refuse to do so when you'd really like it to happen.
• Melee powers with KB? Stuff like Power Thrust is fun on a Blaster when you can just follow up with a salvo of ranged attacks, but on a melee AT? Nah, I don't want to throw people out of my attack range.
• AoE KB? Also nah - while it's funny to toss mobs around when I'm a ranged character, I know from experience how disruptive that is to melee players or anyone trying to use location based AoEs on the same enemies.

Basically I really like KB as a concept, but in practice I can't bring myself to play anything with melee or AoE KB powers because they usually end up being counter productive unless I'm willing to spend several slots on KB>KD IOs. I think a Null the Gull solution would be pretty good to start with.

Edited August 2, 2019 by DSorrow

[Sunsette]

2 hours ago, nihilii said:

I think the new sets might veer a little too far on the power scale. An improved Force Feedback proc and an additional -res proc on KB powers, hmm. But it's true a slot premium exists regardless how many good procs you can theoretically slot in a power. I like that you've kept +defense out of all the proposed sets, so it's not "have your cake and eat it too".

Null the Gull toggle and/or 100% chance to KB on everything that does KB would be pretty sweet. If we're honest, is there truly anyone who would mind a KB power knockbacking 100% of the time instead of 30% of the time, or whatever arbitrary value? I feel the most die-hard KB lover would agree the fun part of KB is sending enemies flying, not wondering whether the attack will send the enemy flying or not.

Yeah, there are almost no sets where defense and recharge exist together outside of the ATOs. I figured that should stay special to them, and the knockback is supposed to be a form of defense anyway. To be straightforward: the procs for Escape Velocity and Fusionette's Fury were primarily designed with Sniper Blast, Power Burst, Focused Power Bolt, and Incandescent Strike in mind, as they are timed to work well with those attacks and have a high chance of activation. Not a lot of other ST attacks qualify as high activation chances for this on ranged sets from looking around, though they do exist, and are often on other sets that aren't super-strong (e.g. Dual Pistols). I will gladly take suggestions for toning down Escape Velocity if it's necessary, though I'm not 100% sure it is. 

Edited August 2, 2019 by Sunsette

[nihilii]

Escape Velocity feels fine in a vacuum. Mostly, it's a question of the greater picture. Knockback attacks whether melee or ranged would suddenly get 2 purple damage sets options where everyone else gets 1, and on top of that, with a superior version of a proc that is often so desirable people slot it on its own.

I'm not sure there is a need for overcautiousness either. It's a passing thought. The game seems to survive radical changes like KB to KD IO turning Bonfire into a supercharged Ice Slick just fine, so who's to say knockback users *shouldn't* enjoy twice the purple goodness? 😉

[Clave Dark 5]

Another upvote for the name Escape Velocity for a purple knockback set, that's wonderful.