Pylon Damage Thread

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 6/4/2020 at 11:03 PM, Microcosm said:

Claws/Ice Scrapper, Musc/Ageless/Degen/Pyro/Assault (off) all T4 Core

2:15 412
2:20 400

 

I had recently done a Svg/Ice stalker thinking the sets had good synergy and realized Claws had similar synergy with Ice, though not quite as much.

 

Chain was FU > Focus > Shockwave > Eviscerate, with Water spout whenever available. Trying to maximize procs. Conventional wisdom says to use Slash with Achilles, but the recharge and cast time are so low on that I figured I'd get better mileage putting Achilles in Water spout and focusing on the other attacks. I've not used Claws much in the past, but I think it's underrated.

 

The end cost on using SW in the attack chain is huge. Ageless is covering that just fine? My average time with fu/focus/slash/repeat is around 3 mins. I have to wonder how much Icicles is helping you out.

[Microcosm]

On 6/11/2020 at 7:08 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

The end cost on using SW in the attack chain is huge. Ageless is covering that just fine? My average time with fu/focus/slash/repeat is around 3 mins. I have to wonder how much Icicles is helping you out.

Ageless covers it with very little wiggle room, but I also don't use energy absorption in this case. I think I put a little end redux in shockwave. One thing I really don't like is I had to put the +crit ato in icicles because I didn't have room and didn't want to lower the proc chances of the other attacks since claw attacks are already low recharge.

 

Edit: I changed my slotting around to drop Gaussian's, get the Crit proc in Follow Up, and add a knockdown proc to spin. Got the below new times

2:04 437
1:52 470
2:21 400 (lag)
1:55 461
1:49 480

 

Much improved. Gaussian's fire rate was just not very high, and being able to partially control the Crit proc is very helpful. I think for actual play though I will drop Assault so I can pick up Rune of Protection and switch to melee core hybrid. That will allow me to do Icy Bastion > RoP > Icy Bastion > Melee continuously. Not sure how much that will drop my dps, but I think I prefer it.

Edited June 14, 2020 by Microcosm

[Bill Z Bubba]

Microcosm prompted me to copy over to beta and test something out for BZB scrap.

Dropped hasten for assault.

Dropped shockwave for eviscerate.

Eviscerate and Slash both have Chance for Damres Debuff. FotG and Achilles' respectively.

3:05 1st run. Attack chain is Followup, Eviscerate, Focus, Slash, repeat. Huh. Same as my with hastened fu, focus, slash chain. Is that triple stack of FU on Focus really making that much of a difference?

3:47 2nd run. Attack chain was Followup, Eviscerate, Slash, repeat. Near pauseless. Huh again.

3:08 3rd run. Attack chain was Followup, Eviscerate, Focus, repeat, half second pause after FU.

3:33 4th run. Same as last attack chain but used ageless to get rid of the pause. Looks like its cast time was more damaging to the run than its buff helped.

 

I expected having two damres debuffs in play would have made far more of a difference but just leaning on those gave the worst time.

 

So far, continues to seem like the fu/focus/slash/repeat is still my best option. But it does take an obscene amount of recharge to get there. On the other hand, going with that 1st attack chain and no hasten, it's 100% end efficient. Downside to that, of course, I'd have to look at eviscerate's awful animation.

 

EDIT: Went ahead and respeced my claws/bio scrap live. 1:54 is his best time so far with fu/focus/slash. But I'm about 10% short on recharge for a fluid chain.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Maxzero]

On 6/11/2020 at 6:58 PM, Bionic_Flea said:

Wow!  67 seconds!  That's very impressive. 

 

Is anyone keeping track of times?  I'd love to see a ranking or top ten of times and the players/builds that got them.

 

Top 10 is all /Storm or /Cold MMs using Burn out. 30-40 seconds is doable. There is a video of a Demon/Cold speedrunner going all out (Insp and full temps) and doing it in 9 seconds.

 

It's not even close.

 

My Crab can do sub 1 min. 

 

After that TW/Bio Scrappers.

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, Maxzero said:

There is a video of a Demon/Cold speedrunner going all out (Insp and full temps) and doing it in 9 seconds.

I've no doubt that my times would improve by eating reds to the damage cap and bringing out lore/temp pets as well. Doesn't really tell us much, though. Kinda curious anyway.

[Frosticus]

3 hours ago, Maxzero said:

 

Top 10 is all /Storm or /Cold MMs using Burn out. 30-40 seconds is doable. There is a video of a Demon/Cold speedrunner going all out (Insp and full temps) and doing it in 9 seconds.

 

It's not even close.

 

My Crab can do sub 1 min. 

 

After that TW/Bio Scrappers.

 

 

Pretty much. Though, I personally did not use burnout, hybrid, or any other tricks on my demon/storm that was north of 900dps. I try not to use "gimmick" tactics for all of my characters. I strive for as repeatable and as close to "jump in and go" performance as possible. 

 

basically if it isnt a power I have perma or use in almost any situation, then it isn't part of a pylon run. At least imo. 

[Sir Myshkin]

6 hours ago, Maxzero said:

Top 10 is all /Storm or /Cold MMs using Burn out. 30-40 seconds is doable. There is a video of a Demon/Cold speedrunner going all out (Insp and full temps) and doing it in 9 seconds.

There's an Illusion/Storm Controller in there +/- 5/s off 60/s (can't remember the exact time) following standard protocols. Funny part is that if it could keep Phantasm alive for the whole fight it'd actually be faster (probably 45-50/s) but the stupid thing melts faster than a tissue in a rain storm.

 

3 hours ago, Frosticus said:

basically if it isnt a power I have perma or use in almost any situation, then it isn't part of a pylon run. At least imo.

Agreed. This is why I feel it's a more fair expectation to see a MM time from first summon to Pylon completion with no pre-prep to really gauge what it takes for them to truly tackle an HP bag like that.

[Frosticus]

4 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Agreed. This is why I feel it's a more fair expectation to see a MM time from first summon to Pylon completion with no pre-prep to really gauge what it takes for them to truly tackle an HP bag like that.

What I do is I sweep the bottom 3-4 pylons consecutively. All my builds tend to ninja jump around so travel is always similar.

That tends to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak. 

 

I can't think of a time where I've done that without losing a good number of pets.

But that is for demon/storm so they are more or less on their own to survive and will die fast if they ignore my positioning commands.

It's actually part of the reason I forgo some of the pets on trollers/doms. They can't be relied upon in many of the situations I find myself in. 

 

I'm not necessarily against a MM starting from no summons, but that generally isn't how a play session goes for me outside of initially logging in. That said, every MM should be comfortable recovering from a pet wipe, which could be fun to try starting from zero while underneath the pylon...

 

Generally though I take every posted time with a grain of salt.

 

 

[Tsuko]

TW bio scrappers can go sub minute too.

[Maxzero]

25 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

TW bio scrappers can go sub minute too.

 

TW is also going to be nerfed so I wouldn't be relying on it long term.

[Maxzero]

5 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Pretty much. Though, I personally did not use burnout, hybrid, or any other tricks on my demon/storm that was north of 900dps. I try not to use "gimmick" tactics for all of my characters. I strive for as repeatable and as close to "jump in and go" performance as possible. 

 

basically if it isnt a power I have perma or use in almost any situation, then it isn't part of a pylon run. At least imo. 

 

As for repeatable pylon killers that won't get nerfed and that are not heavily pet based Controllers could be a contender. Storm is an obvious secondary. As long as you had a spammable Immo it would be repeatable.

 

Ill/Storm once the utility belt power pool comes out. Even have a build ready and waiting. 

 

Wind Control/Storm is another I think will be very good and thematic to boot.

 

Then again Wind Control looks incredible in general. -hit, -def, -dam, -recharge, aoe confuse, aoe stun, super tanky pet plus the regular Troller holds and Immo (ST and aoe) with KD and KU in most attacks (for proc abuse).

Edited June 19, 2020 by Maxzero

[Tsuko]

36 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

 

TW is also going to be nerfed so I wouldn't be relying on it long term.

people told that since, hummm, years 😄

 

And well, if they nerf damage of the hardest leveling and alone weapon set in this game with (easy) modern rotation need with the highest endurance drain, i dont see what will be left of Titan weapons 🙂

 

With almost any Demon or Thugs MM being able to break the game, not to mention STF bio stalkers, Proc monsters controllers and i forget a lot 🙂

 

And who cares if TW is nerfed, there are tons of AT to enjoy.

 

PS : i forget, nerf Hasten, stealth, jaunt and superspeed too 😄

Edited June 19, 2020 by Tsuko

[Maxzero]

53 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

people told that since, hummm, years 😄

 

And well, if they nerf damage of the hardest leveling and alone weapon set in this game with (easy) modern rotation need with the highest endurance drain, i dont see what will be left of Titan weapons 🙂

 

With almost any Demon or Thugs MM being able to break the game, not to mention STF bio stalkers, Proc monsters controllers and i forget a lot 🙂

 

And who cares if TW is nerfed, there are tons of AT to enjoy.

 

PS : i forget, nerf Hasten, stealth, jaunt and superspeed too 😄

 

Nah it's already been confirmed for page 6.

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Agreed. This is why I feel it's a more fair expectation to see a MM time from first summon to Pylon completion with no pre-prep to really gauge what it takes for them to truly tackle an HP bag like that.

For me personally, it's hard to trust any pylon time for MMs. I strongly suspect pylons don't recognize purple patch (whether I'm level 50 or 50+1 makes no difference with debuffs), so it's possible all those -1 and -2 pets are not being negatively impacted by purple patch and their DPS is inflated.

[Frosticus]

29 minutes ago, Bopper said:

For me personally, it's hard to trust any pylon time for MMs. I strongly suspect pylons don't recognize purple patch (whether I'm level 50 or 50+1 makes no difference with debuffs), so it's possible all those -1 and -2 pets are not being negatively impacted by purple patch and their DPS is inflated.

Great point. I think the pylon cons the same to everyone/thing , so you are likely correct. 

 

They would still be the vacuum dps kings, but that does clip their wings a bit.

 

I can test tomorrow if needed. I'll check the strength of demon minion/Luts -res debuffs. That would show if they are being affected by the purple patch.

[Bopper]

17 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Great point. I think the pylon cons the same to everyone/thing , so you are likely correct. 

 

They would still be the vacuum dps kings, but that does clip their wings a bit.

 

I can test tomorrow if needed. I'll check the strength of demon minion/Luts -res debuffs. That would show if they are being affected by the purple patch.

Thank you, that would be a great test to confirm.

[Maxzero]

7 hours ago, Bopper said:

For me personally, it's hard to trust any pylon time for MMs. I strongly suspect pylons don't recognize purple patch (whether I'm level 50 or 50+1 makes no difference with debuffs), so it's possible all those -1 and -2 pets are not being negatively impacted by purple patch and their DPS is inflated.

 

No its inflated because:

 

1) Enemy is stationary. It's easy for rains, patches and such to do their damage.

 

2) Damage is easily avoided/directed. So the flimsiness of pets isn't accounted for.

 

3) MMs have to have some trade off for having to do their DPS through 3rd party AI controlled methods. That upside is that MM pets allow MMs to 'break' the rule that only one power can be used at a time. Every other class focuses on DPA because animation time is critical when DPS can only come from 1 source.

 

It's the same reason why Crabberminds are also so good v Pylons.

 

The best way to get the highest DPS is to break the stronghold animation time has on DPS.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Maxzero

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, Maxzero said:

No its inflated because

Are you saying purple patch is in effect for MM and its pets? I'm only talking about that. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Bopper

[Bill Z Bubba]

Side question: Build Philosophy: Is parking in a PvP zone for the day job +recharge reduction buff a valid build choice for our testing purposes? Meaning, if I'm always going to have that buff, does it count? If that counts, does constantly staying buffed with base temp powers count?

 

My gut says no. But then, I DO toggle on assault hybrid for my pylon runs because that's a power always in my tray and always fired off when available.

 

Where should we draw the line?

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Where should we draw the line?

If the settings are well documented (state you used this base power, state you used this hybrid, etc) then there's no line that really needs to be drawn.

 

IMO, day jobs are too temporary to use. I dont remember how long you have to park a character to get the full 2 hr buff, but i think it's a week or more. If you have to put your toon on the shelf for that long, that doesn't seem useful.

 

As for base powers they're cheap, 90m duration, and not difficult to re-up when needed. I'm fine with using them if you state you use them.

[Bill Z Bubba]

24 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I dont remember how long you have to park a character to get the full 2 hr buff, but i think it's a week or more.

ugh. Screw that.

[marcussmythe]

Inv/EM tank, T4 Standard Incarnates.  DPS Focused/Procmonster style build, but general play (Taunt, Exemp down to Positron functionally, Mu APP for AOEs rather than Gloom or Char, etc)

 

~250DPS.  I may go cry in a corner or give up and roll Titan/Rad.

Edited June 20, 2020 by marcussmythe

[Frosticus]

On 6/18/2020 at 9:20 PM, Bopper said:

For me personally, it's hard to trust any pylon time for MMs. I strongly suspect pylons don't recognize purple patch (whether I'm level 50 or 50+1 makes no difference with debuffs), so it's possible all those -1 and -2 pets are not being negatively impacted by purple patch and their DPS is inflated.

Just to follow up:

@Bopperwas completely correct in this regard. I've attached a screen of a demonling attacking. They debuff res by 15%, but as a -2 that should only be 80% as effective if the purple patch was in play - ie. 12% -res

 

So as he suspected, minions are getting 20% extra damage and luts are getting 10% extra damage by way of the purple patch not impacting them vs pylons.

In the case of demons this is compounded by the fact that they debuff so much resistance, which impacts the damage of the other pets/damage sources.

 

So for something like my demon/storm I can't even guess how much the dps would be inflated from the above and due to the storm powers benefiting from the inflated -res that the pets are putting down. Don't get me wrong, the combo still does ludicrous damage in most any situation, but a pylon is clearly less accurate for gauging it than it is for most other AT's.

 

*this likely applies to GM battles too

[Maxzero]

12 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Just to follow up:

@Bopperwas completely correct in this regard. I've attached a screen of a demonling attacking. They debuff res by 15%, but as a -2 that should only be 80% as effective if the purple patch was in play - ie. 12% -res

 

So as he suspected, minions are getting 20% extra damage and luts are getting 10% extra damage by way of the purple patch not impacting them vs pylons.

In the case of demons this is compounded by the fact that they debuff so much resistance, which impacts the damage of the other pets/damage sources.

 

So for something like my demon/storm I can't even guess how much the dps would be inflated from the above and due to the storm powers benefiting from the inflated -res that the pets are putting down. Don't get me wrong, the combo still does ludicrous damage in most any situation, but a pylon is clearly less accurate for gauging it than it is for most other AT's.

 

*this likely applies to GM battles too

 

The auto containment for Controllers too (strongly helps Illusion) and the stationary nature benefits storm (Or any secondary with Rains).

 

The 20% resist across the board resistance does not reflect typical enemy resistance distribution.

 

No doubt the pylon has many flaws.

 

If someone has a better target I am all ears.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Maxzero

[xl8]

On 6/18/2020 at 11:48 PM, Maxzero said:

 

Nah it's already been confirmed for page 6.

Can you link this anywhere?