issue 26 Patch Notes for September 10th, 2019

[Abraxus]

14 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

The 2-3 full groups did nothing harmful to the server. Everlasting had no lag, no crashes when Hive/Abyss allowed for 100+ people in it. So this has no reasoning behind it other than no fun allowed.

Can we at least give the impression that we don't assume nefarious intent with changes?  Jeeze!  These guys have given you back a game that was gone for 7 years, and worked their bloody asses off to make it something great for everyone.  I don't believe that any part of the conversation regarding these changes was "Hey, let's see how many people we can piss off, and make leave the game!".  I have no doubt there was specific intent here, but not the one being attributed. 

[TheAdjustor]

3 minutes ago, Foxfyre said:

And you know what happens when they do this?  You surreptitiously organize with the people who AREN'T griefers and move to The Hive 2 real quick and lock them out.  There's usually always a way AROUND a problem without having to break through it.
Or you just cancel the raid.  After cancelling the raid a couple times because of the griefers, the griefers will start finding that their teaming options will become limited as more and more people despise them.

Peer pressure works.

Not even going to try and explain, it's obvious there is nothing to be gained.

[Sovera]

Other than all the hami brouhaha I just want to say thanks for something much more minor that is a slider for name scaling. I couldn't read most names, and now I can, so thank you.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Sovera

[Foxfyre]

1 minute ago, golstat2003 said:

Griefers don't care if you cancel the raid. That's their goal.

 

With that said your first suggestion is more realistic. Simply don't make the raids public anywhere. Done.

We have experience with griefers on Excelsior.  Trust me....there are things they care about and things you CAN do to them that correct their behavior.  

Also....and let me be clear about this.....

ALL RAIDS ARE PUBLIC.

The Hive and the Abyss are both open, public zones.  You can not control who enters/leaves.

There is no such thing as a "private raid".  

[golstat2003]

2 minutes ago, Foxfyre said:

We have experience with griefers on Excelsior.  Trust me....there are things they care about and things you CAN do to them that correct their behavior.  

Also....and let me be clear about this.....

ALL RAIDS ARE PUBLIC.

The Hive and the Abyss are both open, public zones.  You can not control who enters/leaves.

There is no such thing as a "private raid".  

You can schedule a raid and not announce it on any channel and be done before anyone notices. I remember folks doing just that on live. That is what I meant by a "private" raid. Probably should have said "non-advertised". Also it should be easier to spawn a second "Hive" now. So there is that.

Edited September 10, 2019 by golstat2003

[Foxfyre]

25 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

Not even going to try and explain, it's obvious there is nothing to be gained.

Do you lead raids?  Regularly?  I've been leading/helping lead every night since Homecoming came back up and I got a toon to 50.

Obviously cancelling a raid is a last ditch, no other options left action.  But it IS a valid action if nothing else works.

And trust me.....we have our share of griefers on Excelsior.  We've been through it.

Also....the fact that you're so mad about cancelling the raid.....it's actually a wash, and here's why.

Let's say we don't cancel the raid.  Let's say those of us who are actually willing to participate give it our best but we fail.  And then we end up with Hami in triple bloom status and can't finish.  That will cause the EXACT same peer pressure effects on the griefers as cancelling the raid.  Maybe even more so because then they cause people to fail.

Cancelling the raid is actually the nicer option.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Foxfyre

[Foxfyre]

1 minute ago, golstat2003 said:

You can schedule a raid and not announce it on any channel and be done before anyone notices. I remember folks doing just that on live. That is what I meant by a "private" raid. Probably should have said "non-advertised".

And the moment 1 person tells a friend "I'm doing a Hami right now" your private raid just became public.

[golstat2003]

Just now, Foxfyre said:

And the moment 1 person tells a friend "I'm doing a Hami right now" your private raid just became public.

/shrug. That's fine. i'm just giving alternatives. I think that's as viable to try as simply "canceling the raid".

[Vrghr]

21 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

When has letting a giant manmade-likeness of a horse, sculpted by your greatest enemy, into your most fortified sanctum ever been a bad idea?

Suspect that city of Troy might be able to advise on this subject.

[Heraclea]

57 minutes ago, eknudson said:

So I wasn't the only one who got stuck on this mission for a while trying to figure out what the heck to do?  Thanks for the fix!

Is this part of the story that yields the War Hero badge?  I happened on it entirely by accident when I ran that mission.

[QuiJon]

59 minutes ago, Rocketeur said:

I have to admit I've been profiting offf of the Hamidon raids on Indom recentlly. But it's become madness. With well over 100 supes the past couple of nights, the hami dies in about 30 seconds. And there's been growing ire for people that just "join the league" and then just sit on the rock and don't participate in hunting GMs or looking for/killing buds: which has now become the lengthiest part of the raid since only about 1/3rd of the people are doing that job. Some people have even voiced verbally in bcast "I don't feel like killing GMs. I'll still take the merits though. Thank you."  

And when you threaten to bounce them if they don't help you get the inevitable "Oh you're going to ban me from the zone?! I don' think so chief! I get the merits whether I'm in your league or not."

It's time to get people off of the free merit train. The RWZ raid will also be more challenging again.

Killing the Hami in a massive onslaught was cool endeavor, but I applaud the fix!

 

Accept you solve none of those problems under this new mechanic, or fix, because those same people will want to still come to a raid and still get the reward for doing as little work as possible and still can get said reward not being in the league and just doing damage and still standing on the rock the entire time doing nothing else, other then now they are taking the spot away from someone that might have been more active and helped the general population with the entire event. 

 

All this change is going to do is mean that people will start showing up to the raids earlier and earlier to just make sure they can get in the door, it doesn't change their behavior when at the raid. You want to solve the problem of standing on the rock not fighting monsters or buds, this doesn't solve that problem. It only makes it worse because now less people that actually want to take full part in the process can get into the zone.

[Foxfyre]

One thing I will say to the zone cap changes.....the RWZ zone cap needs to be raised.

As it stands right now, 1 instance of RWZ can't even support a Mothership Raid + literally ANY OTHER CONTENT.

 

Raid + LGTF?  Nope.
Raid + Tin Mage?  Nope.
Raid + Apex?  Nope.

RWZ isn't like the Hive and the Abyss where people are there for only 1 purpose.  It should have a higher cap to support all the content that's included in it.

[Foxfyre]

2 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

Accept you solve none of those problems under this new mechanic, or fix, because those same people will want to still come to a raid and still get the reward for doing as little work as possible and still can get said reward not being in the league and just doing damage and still standing on the rock the entire time doing nothing else, other then now they are taking the spot away from someone that might have been more active and helped the general population with the entire event. 

 

All this change is going to do is mean that people will start showing up to the raids earlier and earlier to just make sure they can get in the door, it doesn't change their behavior when at the raid. You want to solve the problem of standing on the rock not fighting monsters or buds, this doesn't solve that problem. It only makes it worse because now less people that actually want to take full part in the process can get into the zone.

QuiJon.  I've already mentioned a few of the ways to combat this.  Does it suck that extra effort might have to be taken to combat this?  Yes.  But it can be dealt with.  

[QuiJon]

59 minutes ago, Profit said:

Obviously you've never lead a raid. It's cool, I've been leading them since issue 5. I'm well versed in both versions of hami raid. The problem you speak of, isn't a problem. People who actively want to raid will generally show up early. Sure, freeloaders and griefers show up, and go AFK on the rock. You make it sound like there are no options, you can bring the wall to the rock killing them, you can spawn hami and hami blast them into nothing. You don't have to invite them to a league. Everyone that wants to actively raid can literally spawn hami, and leave for the abyss. Freeloaders and griefers as a rule have a hard time actually raiding hami.

No they don't. It isn't hard at all. Because they don't need to be in your league to get credit. they only need to do damage. So I can still come and take a spot in the hive, and choose to do nothing until everyone attacks hamidon, run in and get in my 1-2 hits and I get my reward. But I don't have to help kill monsters, kill mitos, kill buds for the next kill or anything. And with a hard cap of 1 league in the hive, if I choose to play this way, it is actually just making it even harder for those doing the work because I am taking now a spot away from someone sitting outside the door that might have helped to do all those things. Oh and think you change to abyss to solve the problem? Really like I can not change zones as well and stand there?

[Lazarillo]

2 minutes ago, Foxfyre said:

RWZ isn't like the Hive and the Abyss where people are there for only 1 purpose.  It should have a higher cap to support all the content that's included in it.

Yeah, this is definitely true.  Raising the cap even a bit there also means not having to re-look at the VMerit -> RMerit conversion rate again if lower numbers start having a harder time of it.

[eknudson]

3 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

Is this part of the story that yields the War Hero badge?  I happened on it entirely by accident when I ran that mission.

That's it! I had to search the forums here for an answer-- apparently a lot of people have opened tickets instead! Did feel like something should have made it a little more clear though I confess I didn't read the mission text closely enough. Laura should have been some kind of glowie, or moving a little, or flagged, or... something. This should help enormously.

[Foxfyre]

1 minute ago, QuiJon said:

No they don't. It isn't hard at all. Because they don't need to be in your league to get credit. they only need to do damage. So I can still come and take a spot in the hive, and choose to do nothing until everyone attacks hamidon, run in and get in my 1-2 hits and I get my reward. But I don't have to help kill monsters, kill mitos, kill buds for the next kill or anything. And with a hard cap of 1 league in the hive, if I choose to play this way, it is actually just making it even harder for those doing the work because I am taking now a spot away from someone sitting outside the door that might have helped to do all those things. Oh and think you change to abyss to solve the problem? Really like I can not change zones as well and stand there?

People are already taking notes of the slackers and griefers in hami raids.  It's happening on Excelsior, and Indomitable from what another person in this thread said.  And getting mad about it.

You could do this sure....but don't be surprised when it becomes hard to find a team because people remember who you are.

[Profit]

2 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

No they don't. It isn't hard at all. Because they don't need to be in your league to get credit. they only need to do damage. So I can still come and take a spot in the hive, and choose to do nothing until everyone attacks hamidon, run in and get in my 1-2 hits and I get my reward. But I don't have to help kill monsters, kill mitos, kill buds for the next kill or anything. And with a hard cap of 1 league in the hive, if I choose to play this way, it is actually just making it even harder for those doing the work because I am taking now a spot away from someone sitting outside the door that might have helped to do all those things. Oh and think you change to abyss to solve the problem? Really like I can not change zones as well and stand there?

I like how you think you'll be some anon leecher. Raid leaders talk, word spreads who helps and who doesn't. Character names are learned and when the call goes out to move zones, all you are likely to see is that 'the raid has been canceled'

[QuiJon]

1 minute ago, Foxfyre said:

People are already taking notes of the slackers and griefers in hami raids.  It's happening on Excelsior, and Indomitable from what another person in this thread said.  And getting mad about it.

You could do this sure....but don't be surprised when it becomes hard to find a team because people remember who you are.

But the thing with a hamidon raid is you don't need a team. I have not joined the league at all in the last month. I got tired fo the bullshit arguing in the chat and decided to park 3 toons at level 50 in the hive and change between each take down so I can get full 80 merits a turn.  I still helped with monsters and such though, but I was not teamed. I just have to wait for everyone to attack hamidon and follow them in and I get  a reward same as anyone in the league. 

 

All that will happen is people will just hide and park on the far side of the hami or something and wait for the mob to attack him. I get that a raid can be canceled or whatever if it becomes to big of an issue. But frankly it just seems like if this means that even just a few people that want to come and raid and help can not get into the zone to do so, then it is a bad solution to a problem. Same really goes for the MSRs. I mean as is stands now half the league at an MSR is there to let the other half PL them up. I don't see why the cap could not be set at like 100 or something. Gives for 2 full leagues of players That should be more then enough space for most all of the people that want to really help to get a spot, and if some people mooch, well not really much you can do about that at a public event honestly, and it just seems punitive to those that want to take part to try.

[QuiJon]

9 minutes ago, Profit said:

I like how you think you'll be some anon leecher. Raid leaders talk, word spreads who helps and who doesn't. Character names are learned and when the call goes out to move zones, all you are likely to see is that 'the raid has been canceled'

So I part a different toon in the abyss. See there is this command called /search and when you use it you can filter the server and see all the people in any zone in the game. No one goes to the hive or abyss if there is not a raid going on. So a population of more then 5 people in either means something is starting. Log off the hive toon, log into abyss I still have beat just about half the hive population to the new raid location and am in the door. 

People spent countless hours in the this game trying to figure out the best possible AE mission for xp per minute down to a difference of just  a few points. Do you really think that they wont figure out a plan of action for any recourse short of outrightly canceling a raid? And even if you try to pull a fake out and say it is canceled and get everyone to come back or whatever, we are all to interconnected. A leecher would prob hear about the plan in their SG chat or a global channel and know what is up. 

All I am saying is I would rather the rule try to include as many people that want to help as possible and allow for leechers then I would exluding people that want to take part but cannot now. I feel like the new limit excludes more people that want to legitimately come to earn their reward then it will exclude leechers. And to me that is punishing the wrong group of people. Cause frankly it is no skin off my noise if a leecher gets a reward, unless he makes in into the hive to get the reward and I am locked out and can not. But if I am getting mine also, then who cares it hasn't taken anything away from me. 

[SchnauzerXL]

9 hours ago, Leandro said:

• Fixed the zone cap in The Hive, The Abyss and the Rikti War Zone to be 50 (this was accidentally changed in May - it should have always been 50).

Would there be a way to make this instanced like an iTrial to get ground the type of griefing that used to occasionally happen on live?  Back in the days people would try to beat the raid group in and inevitably there would be a few that were actually there for the raid that couldn't get in because people would keep jumping instances to get in ahead of them.

[Foxfyre]

3 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

Do you really think that they wont figure out a plan of action for any recourse short of outrightly canceling a raid? And even if you try to pull a fake out and say it is canceled and get everyone to come back or whatever, we are all to interconnected. A leecher would prob hear about the plan in their SG chat or a global channel and know what is up. 

Doesn't matter.  All you have to do is do it quick enough to fill up the other Hive/Abyss zone before they catch on.  Which can probably be done in a matter of seconds if you do it right.  

[Lazarillo]

4 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

All I am saying is I would rather the rule try to include as many people that want to help as possible and allow for leechers then I would exluding people that want to take part but cannot now. I feel like the new limit excludes more people that want to legitimately come to earn their reward then it will exclude leechers. And to me that is punishing the wrong group of people. Cause frankly it is no skin off my noise if a leecher gets a reward, unless he makes in into the hive to get the reward and I am locked out and can not. But if I am getting mine also, then who cares it hasn't taken anything away from me. 

So, legitimate question here, if HC sees all this feedback decides "okay, we need to open up the Hive/Abyss to let erryone in" but also, say, triples the HP on all the Mitos and Hammy increases their target caps, debuff/control resistance, etc.  Would you be cool with that?

[Uun]

2 hours ago, Pheonyx said:

 

RIP Carnado, which had a much better story than ANY of the Sharknado movies 😛

Hey now, my friend wrote the Sharknado movies (well, the first four)!

[QuiJon]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

Look - I like reward merits, emp merits - all that stuff. But, I think if we look at the hamidon raid as it was "intended"...the original dev team never imagined that 4 leagues would just bum rush hamidon and win easily. It was never part of the thought process. 

50 was the old cap, and now we have to adjust. If it were 100, really nothing would change, other than less lag. The lag was not the primary issue the HC team was addressing with this change. They simply fixed a mistake they made back in May. No more, no less. 

We basically got to take advantage of it for a few months. As for RWZ, that I could see being upped to 100, due to the multiple TF's that take off from that zone, and other contacts that are being utilized. 

But lets get really real. The original hamidon was made to be fought buy more then 50 heroes. He was purposely weakened when IOs were released because no one was raiding anymore because HamiOs became useless in most cases. No matter what the intent was on this revamp of hamidon it is clear they didn't intend it to be a challenge so much as they did a time sink. Meaning that if you simply did the 3 mitos spawns exactly like you should hamidon was going to die no problem. They turned what was a question mark as to if you could beat him, into something like the MSR that simply was just needing you to show up. Again the problem with this limit is that it will prevent those that were coming and helping to fight him, from even getting in the door. So now not only will buds and monsters take longer with less help cause possibly more of the people in the zone will be leeching, but you will have players that did work for the reward not able to actually get one. So this change honestly still rewards leeching in the exact same way, yet excludes people that might have come in and done the required work from even having a chance at the reward. I would rather let the leechers take a reward then punish those that want to do the work for it.