Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[Captain Powerhouse]

43 minutes ago, Vanden said:

What about them not getting the radius increase?

 

Also noticed a bug with Rage; it's showing the new "weakened" floating text even when you avoid the crash.

The radius increase is independent of the global proc thing. It applies to any power not specifically flagged to ignore radius increases (so far, any power the tanker has access to that is over 10ft)

 

The rage message is a debugging popup i was using and should had been gone from this build... thanks for bringing it up.
 

[Williwaw]

I think I would have made Bruising apply to all offensive powers rather than taking it away entirely and just giving Tankers a general damage increase (since Gauntlet was ultimately a team-focused power, while increasing damage scales is a solo-focused power), but ... I need to test these out to really say for sure.

 

Edit: Well, hm.  Created a character on the beta, crashed upon trying to enter Atlas Park, and now...

 

Gonna make it tough to test anything :D

 

Edit 2: I wonder if something didn't update right in the Legacy/Safe Mode client.  I'm still seeing the secondary Tanker powers in the old order in the character creator, and Rage still has its old crash info, so the issue might be a conflict caused by me trying to create an "old" tanker on the new server.  (And before you ask: despite what the update earlier today said, no, the 32-bit client is not working on MacOS 10.10.  At least, it's not working for me)

Edited September 11, 2019 by Williwaw
Testing fail...

[Haijinx]

11 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The radius increase is independent of the global proc thing. It applies to any power not specifically flagged to ignore radius increases (so far, any power the tanker has access to that is over 10ft)

 

The rage message is a debugging popup i was using and should had been gone from this build... thanks for bringing it up.
 

So invincibilty, rttc, aao, and evasion should all also have the range increased?  By intent anyway.

[BillyMailman]

Context: I main a blaster, but play a little of everything, and enjoyed tanking both on live and on Homecoming, and have a 50 Shield/SS Tanker who existed on both. I come at Tanking from a viewpoint similar to Dechs Kaison's old bit: the tank's job is first and foremost to keep everyone else alive, and they should be played more akin to an aggro-based Controller or a support character, than a melee DPS character. I haven't been able to test, because I only just noticed the update patch notes as I was about to go to bed, but I saw something that didn't make sense regarding Bruising, investigated, and now am left with the below post about half an hour later. Apologies if this is a ramble, I re-wrote it a lot when I realized my first assumptions were wrong, and it's late here.

 

Please stop and take another look at what Bruising actually does, and re-evaluate it, because I think this is a big nerf to Tankers in a team. You said elsewhere that "Against a +3 foe, bruise just applies a -13% res, -9.6% against a +4.", but that's completely inaccurate, unless something major changed somewhere versus live that I missed. The design of Bruising, mechanically, is that it gives the enemy an auto power which self-debuffs. That means that it can't stack from multiple Tankers, but it also means that Bruising is immune to level scaling. If a level 1 Tanker attacks a 54 AV and lands that minimum-5%-chance hit, they're still hitting the AV with a full -20% resistance.

 

The above is definitely accurate with how Bruising used to work. The Internet Archive copy of City of Data shows this (The "Grant Power: Bruising" bit). The net effect was that having at least one Tanker was actually pretty useful on higher-level content, since even a +4 AV was still getting its resistances debuffed down by that power just as much as any +0 minion. And because un-debuffed resistance is resistance-debuff-resistance, that AV actually will take 20% more damage (assuming no other resistance debuffs, which is probably wrong, but those other debuffs are getting purple-patched, so it's not far off).

 

Bruising (at least back on live) was always more powerful than it looked, specifically because of the purple-patch bypass. And if you thought purple patch affects it, I really do think you need to step back and re-run the numbers. Plus it meant that in group content, Tankers didn't do damage by having good damage. They did good damage by supporting the team, which is what a Tanker's there for. A tanker should be doing more than getting aggro and trying to survive it, because their goal is just keeping the team alive, by whatever means. So maybe the real change we need here is to revert Bruising back to being power-grant-based and purple-patch-immune, rather than scale up Tanker damage?

 

...But I just signed into Homecoming to check, and now it's just a generic -resistance, not the power-grant thing. I'm fairly confident that the change to how Bruising works is a Homecoming thing, since City of Data was updated to be current to I24 beta before it shut down. I can't 100% confirm it's a Homecoming change without going onto Rebirth or wherever and testing it, but I remember that that was a major part of the design intent. By being that power-grant thing, it still helped a lot on single big tough targets, where a Tanker's lack of damage wasn't a big deal, their better aggro/survival wasn't much of an advantage over a Brute, etc. Now I'm kinda feeling like my Tanker hasn't actually been as useful as I thought he was, since I hadn't noticed the change before.

 

There is a part that I really do like, though: the radius boosting. My Tanker's major thing is knockdown; between Hand Clap, Foot Stomp, Shield Charge, and Mighty Judgement (knockup, but that's close enough), even enemies I don't have aggro from are probably not attacking my team. The aspects of tanking other than aggro-and-survival get overlooked too much, IMO, and helping Tankers to better spread around secondary effects is a good direction to be taking. I see too many tanks (Brute or Tanker both) who will stand around 'tanking' while the team's dying, and think they're doing a good job because their health is fine, so I definitely agree with things that encourage a Tanker to look at those secondary effects, and see them as opportunities for damage mitigation for the whole team.

 

The aggro improvements (more Gauntlet, 10% scale bump, etc.), I'm mostly ambivalent about. Tankers get aggro pretty easy, and hold it pretty easy. Actually, I kinda worry this is going to maybe make it a bit harder to control what aggro you get. Because the game has a cap on total aggro, you need to make sure the enemies that ignore you are mostly the weaker ones. This isn't a huge deal, since most enemy spawns quickly drop under the limit once a nuke or two has killed the minions, but still maybe an issue? I sadly don't have time to sign in and test tonight, so I'm just speculating here, unfortunately. Same deal with the endurance bump; it's neat, but not a major impact.

[Indystruck]

Does this AoE buff affect pool powers as well? Like, say, cross punch?

[HelenCarnate]

Radius increase and target cap increase- Keep  It is a massive boost to be able to hit more targets with AoE attacks to assist with getting and keeping aggro.

Base damage increase to replace bruising - Keep

Gauntlet and aggro level changes- Keep

Damage cap increase - Either drop or decrease to 500.  With the damage increase and increased target cap combined with the damage cap increase, tankers end up clearing large spawns faster than brutes as they are more likely to hit more mobs.  

[derixyleth]

Not happy about losing bruising. Sure, as a tanker I'll deal more damage myself, but bruising meant that my whole team would deal more damage and that fits my idea of a tanker much better.

And very unhappy about the swapping of T1 and T2 powers. I like Jab so much more than Punch. I like Initial Strike much more than Heavy Blow. I know quite a few people who have/had fire/ice/stone tanks who don't take any of the sword/mallet attacks for whatever reason. Why not just buff the T1 a little bit if you think it's underperforming?

Ambivalent about the other changes, but these two feel like they're fixing problems that don't exist.

[Haijinx]

Yeah the t1 t2 swap thing seems unneeded when combined with the other changes. 

 

 

[Vanden]

If nothing else goes live I desperately hope that the T1-T2 swap gets in.

[Captain Powerhouse]

A note about the t1/2 swap: this only impacts new builds and respects. Existing builds are not forced to give up their Jabs unless a respec is done.

 

Also as mentioned before: got plans to offer punchy versions of those weapon attacks.

[General Idiot]

38 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

Does this AoE buff affect pool powers as well? Like, say, cross punch?

If it really does apply to any power that takes accuracy enhancements, as was said, it should logically also be affecting pool powers.

[Lazarillo]

9 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

A note about the t1/2 swap: this only impacts new builds and respects. Existing builds are not forced to give up their Jabs unless a respec is done.

As a question on this...will anything be done to make the power swapped to t2...more desirable?  I mean, it's nice that Tanks don't have to pick the powers that tend to be weakest among their peers in a lot of cases, but it'd be even nicer if those powers got a little more love in the first place (this isn't just a Tank thing; it seems like almost every melee set, the t1 power becomes undesirable once you get higher-enough to make a chain without it).

[Couthless]

There is some good stuff here and I am a huge fan of the Gauntlet changes, however the removal of Bruised for the sake of a higher damage base doesn't seem even close to being a positive change.

Effectively, what it does is lower the Tank's team DPS, and single target DPS (due to procs being multiplied by Bruised, but not the damage base); for the sake of increasing AOE DPS and the Tank's freedom of choice (by not being forced in to actively using their T1 power). To me, it seems like you are giving up far too much for the sake of those gains.

Assuming that nerfing the Tank's team DPS and single target DPS isn't the goal but a side-effect of the two positive aspects of the change; then a better solution would be to leave the Tank's damage base as it is but have all of their attacks apply Bruised. That way the AOE DPS will increase by the same margin as your proposed changes, the Tank's freedom of choice is similarly improved, and neither the team DPS or Tank's single target DPS will change from what is on live right now.

[Captain Powerhouse]

6 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

As a question on this...will anything be done to make the power swapped to t2...more desirable?  I mean, it's nice that Tanks don't have to pick the powers that tend to be weakest among their peers in a lot of cases, but it'd be even nicer if those powers got a little more love in the first place (this isn't just a Tank thing; it seems like almost every melee set, the t1 power becomes undesirable once you get higher-enough to make a chain without it).

I have considered a few things, but as a rule, any change can’t increase the dps of the power since that would just make the other t1/2 the useless one. 

 

It’s likely the powers will never be too desirable in the end game, but hope is they at least get some form of utility to make them at least situationally useful.

[Haijinx]

They are going to be more desirable with the 0.95 scale at least.

[Lazarillo]

2 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I have considered a few things, but as a rule, any change can’t increase the dps of the power since that would just make the other t1/2 the useless one. 

Yeah, that's all pretty reasonable.  I'll just keep holding out hope that a good compromise is found (or that I can think of I can recommend to you to be summarily denied? 😜 )

[Leogunner]

If the AoE change makes it to live, I will never make a non-Tanker Dark Melee character again and I will covet Shadow Maul for all eternity 😝

[Couthless]

1 minute ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I have considered a few things, but as a rule, any change can’t increase the dps of the power since that would just make the other t1/2 the useless one. 

 

It’s likely the powers will never be too desirable in the end game, but hope is they at least get some form of utility to make them at least situationally useful.

I don't actively use my T1s or T2s in any of my builds, except for my Crab. So as actual powers, they will never be useful but that doesn't mean that other classes don't have any use for them. They are a great place to slot global ATOs in, so I never resent having them be part of my build on other characters. The problem with Tanks is that they don't have a global ATO, so if they aren't getting Bruised then those T1s and T2s have no use whatsoever. If you change one of their ATOs to being a global proc, then they would be in the same position as the other classes.

[Kimuji]

Well I won't beat around the bush: I'm terrified by most of these changes. 😅

But first the good:
- the base endurance increase. Very welcome.
- the cones increase. Welcome change as well.

Now the scary stuff. The removal of Bruise, it was a team oriented passive power. Tankers are team players, I don't like the idea of removing this aspect to replace it with a substantial damage increase. Especially with such a massive change for the damage cap as well. 600% with a base damage multiplier of 0.95 means that Tankers have a higher damage potential than Brutes. Bring a Kinetic in the team and the Tanker will clearly out damage all the Brutes, especially when combined with the buffed AoEs. I'm ok with the buffed angle for cones because most of them suck, but making all AoE 16ft+ that's completely over the top and it also contributes to the uniformization of all sets. So I'm not that enthusiastic regarding the AoE buff. Just buff to 10ft all AoEs with a radius inferior to 10ft but anything above that would be too much.
I don't like being forced to take the T2 either, most T1 are better are low level thanks to their faster recharge (there are very few exceptions to that rule, like Eneregy Melee's T2 being faster than the T1). I'd rather keep the T1 or being given the choice between T1 and T2.

[Myrmidon]

If you revert any of these changes, for the love of sweet, little 8lb., 6oz baby Jesus, send this live!

[12thPower]

I like these changes. The endurance change will help endurance hogs (Dark Armor), opening up more choices for Ancillary and Incarnate powers to them. The buff to Cone/AOE will help proliferate less popular melee powersets now that they can compete with Footstomp. The only suggestion I have is to apply the Cone/AOE buffs to all such powers and cap them at a maximum rather than blocking some powers from being buffed entirely. It feels odd that a 90 degree cone is now wider than a 100 degree cone. Just cap them both at 180.

[Haijinx]

Dark Armor will be amazing .. 

 

16 foot fear, 16 foot Stun, 16 foot Damage aura.  

 

Pair it with Dark melee for that 20 foot Soul Drain, and buffed Shadow Maul. 

 

Fun. 

[William Valence]

Tanks will be a lot more popular. Fire/Spine tanks are going to take over farming with sub 3:30s times on the comic fire farm.

 

And that's with me being a dunce farmer. This is insanely strong.

 

 

[Kimuji]

17 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Dark Armor will be amazing .. 

 

16 foot fear, 16 foot Stun, 16 foot Damage aura.  

 

Pair it with Dark melee for that 20 foot Soul Drain, and buffed Shadow Maul. 

 

Fun. 

I call this broken.

[Demon Shell]

5 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Like it or not, the Tanker is not the only Tank archetype in the game, just like Defender is not the only Support archetype. Fury scaling was already nerfed when Going Rogue came out. If anything, I'd argue Kheled tanking capabilities need improvement, it's just something I would not do without first addressing Tankers first.

GIVE PEACEBRINGERS A DAMAGE/TAUNT AURA!

5 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

As part of their inherent power, tankers get a buff that works similar to Boost Range, but it boosts Radius and Arc of powers. The arc of Cones gets boosted by +100% and the radius of PBAoEs are boosted by +100%.

 

This means a 90 degree cone will actually cover a 180 area, while a 10ft PBAoE will cover 20ft.

 

Any power that has more than 90 degree cone, or more than 10ft radius, is immune to this buff.

A 180 degree, 20 foot range Ice Melee Frost... Someone check my pulse, I think I'm dead.