Changes a'comin'!

[Cutter]

FYI.

 

[nihilii]

Change is scary!

 

So, it sounds like we're losing the inherent (getting another one, of course), in the interest of more even performance. "Comparable to scrapper damage but not equal" - cryptic!

 

I wonder how it'll all shake out. I feel there's a tendency to look at performance in a vacuum (4 + 2 = 3 + 3), when in truth, it's better to do 4 while you fight and 2 during your downtime running to the next mob than to do 3 all the time.

 

If we lose the -res, that's also a significant hit as a force multiplier or even for your own Lore pets, even if raising the damage scale or what have you puts our hypothetical damage at the same spot.

But then I might be biaised... I greatly enjoy the feeling of ramping up in power as a Sentinel. The big numbers stick to my head, the small numbers I forget.

If nothing else, the changes will give us opportunities for more brainstorming. 🙂

Edited September 20, 2019 by nihilii

[Midnight Blue Mage]

Whoa... I agree, I'm a little scared, but I'm excited for new possibilities :]

[Generator]

If the change nukes away the Opportunity Mechanic, I hope to Crom they remember to change how the ATO works.

[Hopeling]

It's interesting to me that the intent of Opportunity was "below Scrapper damage without, above Scrapper damage during". Even with Offensive Opportunity and optimistic estimates, Sentinel damage during Opportunity was just barely at par with a scrapper.

 

The suggested new inherent sounds... pretty meh? But it's extremely preliminary, so I'm not going to worry about it yet.

[Pharce]

Anyone who actually plays a sentinel should probably weight in on that tread. Lots of non-sentinel players throwing out weird ideas.

[oldskool]

I tossed my 2 cents into it for whatever it is worth.  

The current 70% defense value has always bugged me about Sentinels.  I really have no interest in getting into circular arguments about how much influence I can spend to achieve soft-cap defense or not.  That's not the issue.  The issue, as I see it, is Sentinels are the only AT with 70% of the value on defensive powers.  You'd think the AT would have something to compensate that like more damage or more team support.  Yet, it doesn't have either.  Seeing the statement that the original concept was that it could exceed Scrapper damage (conditionally) makes some sense as to why it may have a lower set of values on defense across the board.  In practice I think this was a non-issue and should be worth revisiting as a reversal.  That hit to defensive values goes beyond just how much defense/resistance you have innately but also impacts things like DDR too.  It also seems to effect the healing category which is applicable to Life Drain in Dark Blast making it the weakest version of the power in the game for its utility.  Sure, Mastermind Life Drain stinks on damage but it has the same 10% heal as a Blaster's version.  Sentinel's get 6% on top of a power that does less damage than the T2 (Gloom).  

I also brought up the ATO uniques.  If the inherent changes then the Opportunity Strikes would need to change too, but the Ward proc is equally in need of change.  

I'll test whatever comes up, but broad changes to the inherent are the least of my issues.  It is the other stuff that works alongside the inherent that could use some work too.  

[Hopeling]

On 9/22/2019 at 6:43 AM, oldskool said:

The issue, as I see it, is Sentinels are the only AT with 70% of the value on defensive powers.

Not the only - shared with Blasters. But yes, the low defensive numbers seem strange. Lower base HP seems like enough of a tradeoff for getting to attack from range.

 

I don't think the Ward proc is underpowered per se - tankers get the same proc, and 181 points of absorb at 5 PPM is actually pretty substantial (if none of that absorb goes to waste, that's roughly equivalent to +200% regen), although it's weird for it to be affected by the purple patch. Defensive procs in general are just kind of unexciting. The Opportunity Strikes proc is basically garbage in its current state (PPM 1, and wasted half the time it goes off? Really?), so I absolutely would not mind if it changes to something completely different.

[drbuzzard]

I'd have to say that the basic design considerations for sentinels sort of reflect views which have always been the case with COH. There's a huge over valuing of being at range (why blasters were and still mostly are glass cannons) and because of this sentinels, while granted defensive sets, get comparatively weakened ones and then take a hit in damage and target numbers to top it off. While I do enjoy my sentinels, it's not because they are the best damage dealers. It's because I've long wanted a tankmage, and while you can also do that with VEATs (and I do have a tankmage VEAT here), they have a lot of limitations baked in which pin you down in playstyle. My ranged crab is tough as nails, and buffs parties quite well, but since the damage is almost all lethal, it's feels like I'm slapping things at endgame.

 

I prefer to play my various sentinels who can use other damage types. Thing is though, I can also see on my other alts (brutes and stalkers) what high damage looks like and it is somewhat of a downer. I think  the idea of giving up on the inherent and boosting damage is a good one since let's be honest, this current inherent is a hot mess. The only place the 20% debuff is worth much is AV fights, and I waste opportunity far more than I get to leverage it as something useful.

 

We'll see what they come up with. I've been pretty pleased with the tanker revisions on test right now, so I think some hope is in order.

[oldskool]

17 hours ago, Hopeling said:

Not the only - shared with Blasters. But yes, the low defensive numbers seem strange. Lower base HP seems like enough of a tradeoff for getting to attack from range.

 

I don't think the Ward proc is underpowered per se - tankers get the same proc, and 181 points of absorb at 5 PPM is actually pretty substantial (if none of that absorb goes to waste, that's roughly equivalent to +200% regen), although it's weird for it to be affected by the purple patch. Defensive procs in general are just kind of unexciting. The Opportunity Strikes proc is basically garbage in its current state (PPM 1, and wasted half the time it goes off? Really?), so I absolutely would not mind if it changes to something completely different.

I shouldn't be so broad then.  My point is more about Sentinel secondaries, not who gets the most out of stuff like Weave.

[Procellus]

I think an interesting inherent would be to increase the debuff of attacks. 

 

Let's be honest, what do Sentinels add to a team? If you say DPS we have plenty of ATs that provide DPS and half of them are more survivable.

[Ry]

I like Sentinels but I'm excited to see what changes can be made. I've enjoyed what I've played so far, though. Its nice being a range attacker that isnt a glass cannon. My Assault Rifle/Willpower is great 😄

[WumpusRat]

I'd almost like to see opportunity work similarly to a "ranged fury" mechanic, divorcing it from the binary all-or-nothing that it's at presently, as well as tying it so tightly to the tier-1/2 blasts. 

 

Perhaps on less of a granular scale, and more of a plateau system.

 

0-20 opportunity: no bonus

21-40 opportunity: +damage, minor heal/end recovery

41-60 opportunity: +damage, bonus -res, minor heal/end recovery

61-80 opportunity: +damage, bonus -res, minor heal/end recovery, +accuracy

81+ opportunity: bonuses now become group-wide

 

I'm not going to put out any actual numbers for the various bonuses, since that could be jiggered with to find a good balance point. But it would allow for sentinels to be more flexible with their opportunity when solo, and allow them to provide a useful buff for their team as well, giving people a reason to say "oh good, we have a sentinel."

Edited September 30, 2019 by WumpusRat

[metacore]

WumpusRat I like your suggestion.

For the ally buffs at 81+ Opp I'd say a pbaoe of 15-20' as the Sentinel is prob between the frontlines and the ranged allies due to their shorter ranged attacks and no melee. It 'pulses' 1/sec and the buffs last for 5sec but don't stack from the same Sentinel so if an ally moves out of the area they still get the bonuses for 5secs.

[earthdaddy]

Something I would like to see. The Dominator version of Martial Assault as a Sentinel primary. It's got ranged and melee attacks, but leans more toward ranged attacks. some knockdown, poison, shuriken chucking and spinning wheel kick  goodness. I would totally play that ninja.

Edited October 5, 2019 by earthdaddy

[Cutter]

On 10/4/2019 at 9:34 PM, earthdaddy said:

Something I would like to see. The Dominator version of Martial Assault as a Sentinel primary. It's got ranged and melee attacks, but leans more toward ranged attacks. some knockdown, poison, shuriken chucking and spinning wheel kick  goodness. I would totally play that ninja.

I haven't been in this thread in a while, but I got a notification and figured I'd have a look at what's been going on. I like the idea of an Assault primary, even if it leans more to the ranged attacks. Heck, let's make Sentinels play well everywhere, and give them an Assault primary paired with a hybrid Defense/Support secondary? @Captain Powerhousedoes this have any legs?

[Zepp]

47 minutes ago, Cutter said:

I haven't been in this thread in a while, but I got a notification and figured I'd have a look at what's been going on. I like the idea of an Assault primary, even if it leans more to the ranged attacks. Heck, let's make Sentinels play well everywhere, and give them an Assault primary paired with a hybrid Defense/Support secondary? @Captain Powerhousedoes this have any legs?

Something like:

 

Operative (19.09.24.06.34.01)

Assault/{Armor/Manipulation/Control}

Preparation: Low threat level, stealth (weak), and a bar that constantly builds but is reduced by attacks - grants improved secondary effects

Operatives are strategic agents that have many skills that they must strategically employ to be effective. They use a Manipulation secondary that has been bolstered by a modicum of armor and control for survival.

 

 

I like the idea of an assault primary, but I'd rather keep Sentinels as Sentinels and add a new Assault/Manipulation(+a little sumthinsumthin...) AT on top.

[Cutter]

41 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Something like:

 

Operative (19.09.24.06.34.01)

Assault/{Armor/Manipulation/Control}

Preparation: Low threat level, stealth (weak), and a bar that constantly builds but is reduced by attacks - grants improved secondary effects

Operatives are strategic agents that have many skills that they must strategically employ to be effective. They use a Manipulation secondary that has been bolstered by a modicum of armor and control for survival.

 

 

I like the idea of an assault primary, but I'd rather keep Sentinels as Sentinels and add a new Assault/Manipulation(+a little sumthinsumthin...) AT on top.

Honestly the Operative, as I've done a quick read-through on the linked thread, feels like it's trying to do too much with its secondary. I'd rather stick closer to the idea of Sentinels as ranged scrappers (or if I can rephrase it, armoured lite-blasters), which was the Captain's stated design goal.

 

To that end, a primary with mostly ranged attacks and 1-2 melee/pbaoe attacks makes sense (as there are some scrapper sets with range). The idea of a hybrid secondary comes from my own desire to add a little more team utility - I'm thinking 5-7 armour set powers and 2-4 support powers, to make it clear that self-protection is the main focus of the secondary.

 

As a very (very) rough example, here's a quick re-imagining of Water/Regen cause I play those sets:

 

PRIMARY

Aqua Bolt - no change
Hydro Blast - no change
Water Burst - changed to pbaoe
Dehydrate - changed to melee ST attack
Tidal Forces - no change
Whirlpool - changed to pbaoe
Water Jet - no change
Steam Spray - no change
Geyser - no change

 

SECONDARY
Fast Healing - no change
Reconstruction - replaced by Healing Aura (empathy)
Quick Recovery - no change
Instant Regeneration - no change
Dismiss Pain - replaced by Regeneration Aura (empathy)
Integration - reduce +regen
Resilience - remove res disorient (it's redundant with Integration anyway), add +hp from Dismiss Pain
Second Wind - changed to self/ally rez
Moment of Glory - no change

[Menelruin]

Sounds like you might want something with the blaster's secondary sets as a primary, maybe?

[Cutter]

I think poaching from blaster secondaries might be going too far, and I am trying to avoid going the Manipulation or Control route as neither of those fit CP's "ranged scrapper" designation which I want to uphold. I see the primary as being at least 2/3 true ranged attacks. For many of the current Sentinel blast sets, given existing pbaoes and even cones, that's likely to mean swapping in maybe only 1 true melee attack, and (at least as I did with water) making one or two target aoes into pbaoes.

[Cutter]

Just posting an FYI that I've copied this suggestion over to the "How would you buff Sentinels" thread in Suggestions. I figured that might be a better place for further discussion.

 

[Zepp]

6 hours ago, Cutter said:

Honestly the Operative, as I've done a quick read-through on the linked thread, feels like it's trying to do too much with its secondary. I'd rather stick closer to the idea of Sentinels as ranged scrappers (or if I can rephrase it, armoured lite-blasters), which was the Captain's stated design goal.

 

To that end, a primary with mostly ranged attacks and 1-2 melee/pbaoe attacks makes sense (as there are some scrapper sets with range). The idea of a hybrid secondary comes from my own desire to add a little more team utility - I'm thinking 5-7 armour set powers and 2-4 support powers, to make it clear that self-protection is the main focus of the secondary.

 

As a very (very) rough example, here's a quick re-imagining of Water/Regen cause I play those sets:

Because of the Cottage Rule, I do not see changes to the primary/secondary combinations of Sentinel being in the cards. Just think about how many toons would no longer be able to respec with the primary/secondary combination they selected. Furthermore, I do not think that the Sentinel concept works well for an Assault primary.

In terms of the Operative, the secondary of the Operative (in its current iteration near the end of the thread) is basically Manipulation sets with one armor power, one placate, and then control powers to fill any holes. It is actually a nice balance allowing Assault and Manipulation sets to be proliferated while being functional.

[drbuzzard]

I think Captain Powerhouse has already said there won't be assault primaries added. The idea of the sentinel is ranged/defensive and it will stay that way (and I like that fact). Melee attacks do become available in the epic pools if you really feel a need.

[Psi]

4 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

I think Captain Powerhouse has already said there won't be assault primaries added. The idea of the sentinel is ranged/defensive and it will stay that way (and I like that fact). Melee attacks do become available in the epic pools if you really feel a need.

Extremely specific melee options, yes. If you're trying to keep a theme with your characters, those are very limited.

I suppose a way around this would be to expand Epic pool options. For all ATs. Not a small undertaking, but one that will certain enable the "Just use your epic pool" suggestion.