Code of Conduct Update - September 25th 2019

[Player2]

Important Information regarding trademarks:

 

Not all things can be trademarked.  The most important things to know is that for characters to be trademarked, their likenesses must meet a definition of legally distinct and names must be both legally distinct and original --as in, not common.

 

For example, there was in issue of Thor back in the late 80s or early 90s in which Clark Kent and Lois Lane appears.  This did not occur with DC's permission.  It occurred because even though the characters looked like DC's representations of Lois Lane and Clark Kent, their appearance was considered common and could not be trademarked.  Likewise, their names were common... Lois... Clark... these are names that are part of general public usage.  The name Kal-El (or Kal'L or any other variant that looks like it) is original.  It was created specifically for the Superman character and appears in copyrighted written material.  In addition to the copyright on Kal-El and Superman, those names can also be trademarked.

 

However, this does not mean you can make a Superman clone and name him Clark because it the appearance of the character falls under trademark.  Thor, Hercules, Zeus, and other mythological figures ABSOLUTELY CAN be used.  No one owns a trademark or copyright on world mythology.  Marvel owns a trademark on their image(s) of Thor, all the way back to his original look before armor or female variants and so on.  So anyone can make Thor, but you cannot make a Thor that looks like Marvel's.  Likewise, you can't make someone named Thunder God or even Hammer Smash Guy that looks like Marvel's Thor.  You can LEGALLY make an original interpretation of Thor.  Marvel cannot sue over use of the name Thor.  Another great example is DC's Firestorm.  The word firestorm exists in the common usage language.  You can find it in the dictionary.  DC does not own the term firestorm.  However, you definitely cannot use that name to make a character that looks like any incarnation of DC's Firestorm character.

 

Additional useful information.  When discussing these issues, please note that copyright and trademark are not identical.  Copyright pertains primarily to written works, but can also apply to art and even photos.  Specific images can be copyrighted.  However, that applies to those images only.  Let's use the iconic image of Amazing Fantasy # 15 with Spider-Man webswinging with someone under his arm.  That cover art is copyrighted.  The look of Spider-Man in his red & blue costume is trademarked.  So copyright law would be invoked if someone were trying to reproduce that specific cover image... while any representation of Spider-Man would be an infringement of trademark law.  Please know the difference.  It's both amusing and irritating watching people say things on the topic of trademarked characters and talk about copyrights.

 

I bring all of this up in hopes that, unlike the original Live servers, people won't have characters reset for things that aren't actually infringements.  I hope the Homecoming team actually takes the time to learn what is and isn't covered under trademark and / or copyright laws so that they can make informed decisions rather than just respond by resetting any character that is reported or take other actions against any players who are reported.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Player2

[Starhammer]

Sic transit gloria mundi

So, as the Homecoming team strives to affect airs of legitimacy to go along withe the legal business operating as a front for the pirate server running stolen code (none of which I have a problem with beyond the hypocrisy of course) should we remember that NCSoft has rights to every character we made on their servers, and delete such recreations as well?

I need to know for my next alt, Costume Cop, who is inspired by self-righteous school bullies who get away with their harassment of others under the authority of a hall monitor harness...

[Blackbird71]

11 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 

There is a DC Blackbird too .. but you would think that name is allowed as long as the character was not related.

I actually don't use that as a character name; it's just a forum handle.  The "71" is not there just to distinguish me from 70 other Blackbirds:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_SR-71_Blackbird

 

So unless the USAF or NASA want to come after me, I think I'm safe.

 

 

[Blackbird71]

4 hours ago, Player2 said:

Important Information regarding trademarks:

 

...

Additional useful information.  When discussing these issues, please note that copyright and trademark are not identical.  Copyright pertains primarily to written works, but can also apply to art and even photos.  Specific images can be copyrighted.  However, that applies to those images only.  Let's use the iconic image of Amazing Fantasy # 15 with Spider-Man webswinging with someone under his arm.  That cover art is copyrighted.  The look of Spider-Man in his red & blue costume is trademarked.  So copyright law would be invoked if someone were trying to reproduce that specific cover image... while any representation of Spider-Man would be an infringement of trademark law.  Please know the difference.  It's both amusing and irritating watching people say things on the topic of trademarked characters and talk about copyrights.

...

I'm no expert on this.  I don't know your background either, but you seem to have more of a handle on this stuff than most, so maybe you can clarify something:  I had previously been informed that it was possible to trademark both a name and a symbol, but not an entire costume.  Is that incorrect?

[Tachstar]

3 hours ago, Starhammer said:

should we remember that NCSoft has rights to every character we made on their servers, and delete such recreations as well?

 

I was wondering about this, too.  My blaster, Starflux, even makes a brief appearance in the Issue 12 VEAT trailer.  At the time, I thought was pretty wootful.  It didn't occurr to me that remaking that character here, now, could pose a problem -- until I started reading this thread.  Now, I don't know.

[Myrmidon]

4 hours ago, Starhammer said:

should we remember that NCSoft has rights to every character we made on their servers, and delete such recreations as well?

 

While I wouldn’t enjoy changing the names and likeness of any of mine that might fit that criteria, I would absolutely LOVE reading the threads in here concerning this.🤣

[MunkiLord]

18 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

Actually, there may be something preventing you from remaking "your own" character; and that is the fact that it may not be "your own."  I can't say for certain in this case, because I never played DCUO and I don't know their user agreement terms, but a lot of games include the stipulation that any characters you create become the property of the game publisher/copyright holder.  If that's true for DCUO, then once you created the character in that game, legally it became DC's property, not yours.  Remaking that character on CoH would in principle be the same as making Batman himself.

 

Now in practice, it may just slip under the radar, as someone would have to see your character and recognize it as DC property (i.e., they'd have to be familiar with your character on DCUO), and then report it for the GMs to take notice.

What those EULA are stating is that the user grants an unlimited license for the company to use their user generated content in their game and ads for as long as they want.

 

I'm not positive, but I'm pretty confident that one cannot sign over IP rights by simply accepting a game EULA. 

[MetaVileTerror]

To my knowledge, it hasn't gone to court yet, so there's no legal precedent set for whether or not the TOU or EULA can reasonably be used to grant a corporation the rights of ownership they /claim/ that users are signing over to them.  Many people have speculated on this, however, and there are several Youtube videos and documented essays on the subject or tangential concerns.

[grbrandjr]

I have a question just for self-clarification.

 

I created an assault rifle hero directly based with the backstory that he is a member of Longbow, complete with a Longbow inspired costume and colors.  He is not a copy of any specific NCSoft character but rather just a representative of the organization.  I would think not since the Arachnos Widow and Arachnos Soldier are basically ripped right from their organizations for you to utilize.

 

Does this fall into the trademark issue? 

 

Thanks for your advice as I had plans to create a line of villains based on the villain groups in the game: Family, Tsoo, Freaks and such.

 

 

[Jimmy]

1 hour ago, Tachstar said:

 

I was wondering about this, too.  My blaster, Starflux, even makes a brief appearance in the Issue 12 VEAT trailer.  At the time, I thought was pretty wootful.  It didn't occurr to me that remaking that character here, now, could pose a problem -- until I started reading this thread.  Now, I don't know.

Don't worry, this is not a problem. 

2 minutes ago, grbrandjr said:

I have a question just for self-clarification.

 

I created an assault rifle hero directly based with the backstory that he is a member of Longbow, complete with a Longbow inspired costume and colors.  He is not a copy of any specific NCSoft character but rather just a representative of the organization.  I would think not since the Arachnos Widow and Arachnos Soldier are basically ripped right from their organizations for you to utilize.

 

Does this fall into the trademark issue? 

 

Thanks for your advice as I had plans to create a line of villains based on the villain groups in the game: Family, Tsoo, Freaks and such.

 

 

This is also not an issue. The rule specifically covers individual signature characters, not groups or organisations (I have a Freakshow Brute, for example!)

[MetaVileTerror]

Jimmy, I believe their concern is more with the wording of the original Live City of Heroes game's EULA, which stated that NCSoft would get ownership of any content we made in the game.  So, if that EULA were a legally binding contract, people are afraid that they're technically using copywritten characters which they created, but signed away to NCSoft to play the game.  This isn't about Signature Characters like Statesman or Peter Thermari.

 

That's at least my reading on their concerns.

[EmeraldFox]

Im actually gonna have to agree with the team on this stance.  Legally homecoming is still in a grey area while talks with NCsoft are still ongoing and right now we cant afford to have the likes of disney who now own marvel to cast there gaze upon us.  There lawyers and marvels together are like a scale of Galactis and you know what disney are like with things that are there's.  Same with publishers like DC or Zenscope. 

 

And before you go saying this will never happen it has before when NC Soft owned CoH and had that huge lawsuit with Marvel over the same issue.  Besides to me when i see others copy heroes from comics and go's around pretending there them and not macho its like there taking the lazy route and not haveing an ounce of creativity.  Like us that come up with an idea try to find a name not used back ground hide out how we play the character etc etc.  People like that dont have that much respect as someone who created there idea either from inspiration and made there own or from scratch

[Blackbird71]

6 minutes ago, EmeraldFox said:

Im actually gonna have to agree with the team on this stance.  Legally homecoming is still in a grey area while talks with NCsoft are still ongoing and right now we cant afford to have the likes of disney who now own marvel to cast there gaze upon us.  There lawyers and marvels together are like a scale of Galactis and you know what disney are like with things that are there's.  Same with publishers like DC or Zenscope. 

 

And before you go saying this will never happen it has before when NC Soft owned CoH and had that huge lawsuit with Marvel over the same issue. 

The big difference is that HC is currently being run by a non-profit that holds no assets that would be worth Disney, Marvel, or DC's time and money to go after.  Generally if lawyers know there is nothing to get, then they don't waste their time,  especially in an area that legally still has been untested (settling out of court prevents a precedent being set).  Could they come after HC?  Sure, but it seems highly unlikely.  So unless part of the upcoming deal is that HC will be folded back under NCSoft and be part of a corporation that does have money for the lawyers to pursue, I find it highly unlikely that those companies would lift a finger.

 

10 minutes ago, EmeraldFox said:

Besides to me when i see others copy heroes from comics and go's around pretending there them and not macho its like there taking the lazy route and not haveing an ounce of creativity.  Like us that come up with an idea try to find a name not used back ground hide out how we play the character etc etc.  People like that dont have that much respect as someone who created there idea either from inspiration and made there own or from scratch

That sounds like a personal problem.  The wonderful thing in the world is that people are all different in so many ways.  Not everyone is going to be as creative as you, but some of those people will still want to enjoy this game.  Who are you to tell them that what they want to do is lazy or wrong?  So what if they don't put as much effort as you into researching and designing your character?  The vast majority of my 50+ alts are originals, but I'm not going to belittle someone just because they want to play as their favorite hero from a comic or movie.  If you want to talk about a lack of respect, I have no respect for people who trot out a "holier than thou" attitude about how they think everyone else should be playing.

[ShardWarrior]

40 minutes ago, EmeraldFox said:

Besides to me when i see others copy heroes from comics and go's around pretending there them and not macho its like there taking the lazy route and not haveing an ounce of creativity.  Like us that come up with an idea try to find a name not used back ground hide out how we play the character etc etc.  People like that dont have that much respect as someone who created there idea either from inspiration and made there own or from scratch

The very companies you are holding up on a pedestal as pillars of creativity and originality are perhaps the most flagrant ripoff artists themselves.   Where do we even begin listing them?  Just to name a few from a rather lengthy list....

 

Green Arrow vs  Hawkeye

Namor vs Aquaman

Brainiac vs Ultron

Superman vs Sentry or Gladiator or Hyperion

Catwoman vs Black Cat

Elongated Man vs Mister Fantastic

Deadpool vs Deathstroke

Swamp Thing vs Man Thing

Ant-Man vs The Atom

Red Lion vs Black Panther

Wasp vs Bumblebee

Thanos vs Darkseid

[ShardWarrior]

37 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

If you want to talk about a lack of respect, I have no respect for people who trot out a "holier than thou" attitude about how they think everyone else should be playing.

This 3000.

[EmeraldFox]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

The very companies you are holding up on a pedestal as pillars of creativity and originality are perhaps the most flagrant ripoff artists themselves.   Where do we even begin listing them?  Just to name a few from a rather lengthy list....

 

Green Arrow vs  Hawkeye

Namor vs Aquaman

Brainiac vs Ultron

Superman vs Sentry or Gladiator or Hyperion

Catwoman vs Black Cat

Elongated Man vs Mister Fantastic

Deadpool vs Deathstroke

Swamp Thing vs Man Thing

Ant-Man vs The Atom

Red Lion vs Black Panther

Wasp vs Bumblebee

Thanos vs Darkseid

im not holding them up for creativity and origonality in any form what soever my point was that they own the ip for the main heroes in there comics and would legally have the right to take up the likes of homecoming for ip infringement for charecters created on there server that are copys of charecters that they own.  This was the origonal argument of marvel V Nc Soft.  and as for your second post im talking about those who create charecters on the server and do not try and take the time to really put any thought into there charecters

[EmeraldFox]

44 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

Besides to me when i see others copy heroes from comics and go's around pretending there them and not macho its like there taking the lazy route and not haveing an ounce of creativity.  Like us that come up with an idea try to find a name not used back ground hide out how we play the character etc etc.  People like that dont have that much respect as someone who created there idea either from inspiration and made there own or from scratch

 

 

ok ill give you that.  ive just had a bad experience with people making random characters in mmo games and just gone and tried to take over rp and ruin the game for everyone.  I apologies for the content of the argument i was making.  It was worded wrong and explained wrong in the opinion of this player

Edited September 26, 2019 by EmeraldFox

[ZacKing]

41 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

The big difference is that HC is currently being run by a non-profit that holds no assets that would be worth Disney, Marvel, or DC's time and money to go after.  Generally if lawyers know there is nothing to get, then they don't waste their time,  especially in an area that legally still has been untested (settling out of court prevents a precedent being set).  Could they come after HC?  Sure, but it seems highly unlikely.  So unless part of the upcoming deal is that HC will be folded back under NCSoft and be part of a corporation that does have money for the lawyers to pursue, I find it highly unlikely that those companies would lift a finger.

Trademarks need to be protected so having assets to go after is not always required.  Could Disney sue?  Sure.  server could also get struck by a random meteor.  tons of websites out there for tons of games with mods or 3D models or art prints for free or even for sale.  Guaranteed these companies know they are there and don't bother with them.  look at all the sellers on Amazon selling Marvel and DC stuff.  They all have a license?  Amazon has more money than God.  Disney doesn't bat an eye.

[Yomo Kimyata]

The point is, copyright infringement is illegal.  It was illegal last week, and it is illegal today.  Maybe you don't think that is right or fair, but like dog fighting and murder, it is still illegal.  If you don't like it, get elected to a legislative position and change the laws if you can.

 

HC didn't use to try to combat this illegal behavior.  Understandable, it's a big time and effort suck, and it obviously cheeses a lot of people off.  Today, they are trying to combat this illegal behavior, for their own reasons.  Also understandable, since they are the first ones in line for legal action.

 

My view on this is if you intentionally committed copyright infringement, and I am going to presume that if you did so you did it knowing that it was illegal but not being enforced, prepare to lose your name or appearance.  If you don't like it, feel free to start your own server and shoulder the risk yourself.  But don't whine, "But, but, but I WANT IT!!!"  If you are legitimately concerned that your name or character MAY be in violation, I probably wouldn't worry about it.  If there is a risk of legal action, it would be over low hanging fruit rather than something esoteric.  But that is not legal advice; consult your lawyer.

 

I don't think HC owes me anything.  Even if I am able to contribute in the very brief windows that contributions are open.  We are here playing, and posting on the forums, at their pleasure.  And if it all goes away tomorrow, I'll shrug and make my peace with it.  It's their ball, and they can take it and go home if they want.  Every single one of us has the ability to bring our own ball and start a new game if we want.

[ShardWarrior]

6 minutes ago, EmeraldFox said:

and as for your second post im talking about those who create charecters on the server and do not try and take the time to really put any thought into there charecters

And who are you or any of us to judge what is "creative"?  How about letting others design what they want and have fun the way they want and you worry about you?

[Skyhawke]

At the end of the day, the HC team run the servers, do maintenance, patch things and have the risk if things go south, so if they say no more characters that are ripoffs of other IPs...well then, no more characters that are ripoffs of other IPs.  I know people will be people, but why this is still an argument is hard to grasp. You like the rules?  Continue on. You don't like the rules?  Adapt or move on. It sounds cruel, but that's life. 

 

(And yes, I know some will argue just to argue)

Edited September 26, 2019 by Skyhawke

[Xeres]

Ah.  I'm ok with the policy in theory but feel bad for the GMs who's lap this was just put in.

[ZacKing]

No one is suggested direct copies aren't illegal.  some here have gone to great lengths to say any kind of copy even if it is meant as comedy should get banned and try to sell it as care concern when they just don't like people who aren't creative enough for them.  It's ok to think people aren't creative, just say so and don't try to hide it.

 

It's funny so many people are frightened about illegal clones and getting sued by someone while playing on a pirate server running stolen code.  Where is the concern for NCSoft and their property and trademark rights? 

 

Sort of ironic to be ok with theft so long as you don't like the company.

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, Xeres said:

Ah.  I'm ok with the policy in theory but feel bad for the GMs who's lap this was just put in.

Same here.  I renamed and retooled my homages last night.  I do feel bad for whomever gets to field all these reports though. 

[Ironblade]

1 hour ago, MetaVileTerror said:

Jimmy, I believe their concern is more with the wording of the original Live City of Heroes game's EULA, which stated that NCSoft would get ownership of any content we made in the game.  So, if that EULA were a legally binding contract, people are afraid that they're technically using copywritten characters which they created, but signed away to NCSoft to play the game.  This isn't about Signature Characters like Statesman or Peter Thermari.

 

That's at least my reading on their concerns.

I obviously don't have the original EULA at hand, but I'm pretty sure it granted NCSoft the right to use your characters (likeness, bio, etc) but not ownership.
This way, they could use them in ads, screenshots, videos, etc without having to get your permission (since you already gave it).  You were free to continue to use the character yourself.