Regeneration armor rework

[Cooltastic]

What I would do for Regen is give it more resistance and less regen when at high health, and then flip them when on lower amounts of health. Giving a nice balance at 50% health.

 

That way the burst attacks taken wont be as scary, and then your regen can kick to max potential after actually being hurt.

 

It makes sense conceptually too, you're body is naturally more resilient when you aren't suffering from any wounds, but if your hurt you become less resilient to fending off further damage. But your body starts to regenerate those wounds.

 

Anyway, that's what I would do.

[ShardWarrior]

Personally, I would just turn IH back into a toggle.

[Lost Ninja]

7 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Instant Healing doesn't help against alphas or huge spike damage.  What was broken with Regen in PvP was perma MoG - and even that wasn't unbeatable.

I once stood in Warburg (around CoV launch) and had three separate stalkers and a blaster all trying to kill me, luckily they weren't working together or they might have managed it) but my regen easily beat their damage. And that was without MoG. Not getting into the whole what was changed for PvP and what wasn't, but regen was not just about MoG.

 

@Thread Personally I think Regen needs a buff, even though my main on live was regen I won't play it now it's lost it's lustre and so many other sets are so much nicer to actually play with. However I'd ideally not want it to gain much in the way of resists/defences because then it just becomes a clone of WP or Bio.

[DR_Mechano]

Personally my own buffs to Regen would be give it large absorbs on most of its heals, making them useful pre-fight like steampunkette suggested and turn IH back into a toggle. I get the feeling that powers like Dull Pain etc. Would be absorb instead of +max HP if they were made in modern CoH and not one of the 'classic' sets.

 

I'd have it so that a Regen character could have like 75-80% of its HP bar as absorb since it has no other defenses.

[Leogunner]

13 minutes ago, Lost Ninja said:

@Thread Personally I think Regen needs a buff, even though my main on live was regen I won't play it now it's lost it's lustre and so many other sets are so much nicer to actually play with. However I'd ideally not want it to gain much in the way of resists/defences because then it just becomes a clone of WP or Bio.

I tend to agree.  If coupled with any sort of defense or resistance (Shadow Meld, good amount of -ToHit, Parry/DA, Tough/Weave, IOs, team buffs), you literally become the most unkillable guy.

 

If I were suggesting buffs: in another thread someone mentioned giving Regeneration resistance to some debuffs and I usually agree when someone posts about the topic.  Give the set resistance to -def, -rech, -slow, -recover, -regen that stacks and compounds with your passives and clicks so that in certain circumstances, you can shrug off debuffs very well...alone it's just a decent bonus and doesn't really boost the set beyond current performance but coupled with any of the former stuff mentioned above, and it can be very beastly.

[Heraclea]

The one good thing about Regen is that it effectively has no holes, because it is almost completely indifferent to the type or location of incoming damage.  Psionic damage, toxic damage, untyped damage, it's all just damage to the Regen player.  I have a regen scrapper currently sitting at 46, absolutely no hurry to get to 50, because the main thing I do with the character is run stuff like Synapse or Moonfire.  Thanks to Quick Recovery she plays like a dream in those TFs.  She earns merits that are spent on things my other characters want, and she earns valuable lowbie set recipes like Kinetic Combat and Impervious Skin.  I do not take Fighting pool on the character like I do with most melees; for her Tough and Weave would be lipstick on a pig.  She doesn't start from a level of defense or S/L resistance that would make what they add pointful, 

 

And as Galaxy Brain mentioned, people take the set because it says 'regeneration' and that's a familiar comic superhero trope, like 'Invulnerability' or 'Super Strength'.  These may not in fact be the best choices for building the sort of character you have in mind, but the appeal of 'Willpower'  or 'Bio Armor' is less obvious.  It also has the advantage of not turning your character into a rock monster, a human light show, or Pigpen. 

 

I think the best thing to do to make Regen viable in endgame is to keep it unique.  Give it substantial, softcapped at the default slot, resistance to just about all debuffs: practical immunity to -recharge, -tohit, -defense, -resist, and the like.  It's a one trick pony; let it use its one trick.  Make it immune to Confused and Terrorized while you're at it: that's fortunately rare but it makes the content where it happens off limits to most melee defensive sets. 

[ninja surprise]

10 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

I think the best thing to do to make Regen viable in endgame is to keep it unique.  Give it substantial, softcapped at the default slot, resistance to just about all debuffs: practical immunity to -recharge, -tohit, -defense, -resist, and the like.  It's a one trick pony; let it use its one trick.  Make it immune to Confused and Terrorized while you're at it: that's fortunately rare but it makes the content where it happens off limits to most melee defensive sets. 

I like this - goes with the concept that Regen recovers from any debuff super quick.

[Zepp]

I disagree with eliminating the +HP, this is a decent mechanic and works well. Adding some absorb on top would help with alpha attacks. Additionally, returning IH to a toggle and possibly changing Dull Pain to an Auto power would go a long way towards fixing the set.

 

Edit: Considering the level of sustain powers in Manipulation sets, it would be reasonable to maintain levels similar to current levels while converting IH to a toggle and DP to an Auto...

Edited October 1, 2019 by Zepp

[ShardWarrior]

14 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

I once stood in Warburg (around CoV launch) and had three separate stalkers and a blaster all trying to kill me, luckily they weren't working together or they might have managed it) but my regen easily beat their damage.

Yes, I used to be able to do the same - but high Regen was not the reason.  My PvP build had adequate perception so I could see Stalkers coming from a mile away negating their use of Hide/AS.  Outside of that, they didn't have sufficient damage to overwhelm my Regen.  Sounds to me like that's working as intended or more likely those others needed to work on their builds and teamwork a little more.  Neither of which meant Regen was "broken" in PvP.  You're also confirming what I said - Regen doesn't help against huge alphas or spike damage.  Had those stalkers worked together, you'd have been 2 shot easily.  Completely different story if they can't hit you at all through perma MoG, which was broken.

 

I've seen many a Regen player go up against /RADs,  /DARKs, /POISONs etc. with -RES and -REGEN debuffs up the kazoo and they got obliterated.

[ShardWarrior]

12 hours ago, Zepp said:

I disagree with eliminating the +HP, this is a decent mechanic and works well. Adding some absorb on top would help with alpha attacks. Additionally, returning IH to a toggle and possibly changing Dull Pain to an Auto power would go a long way towards fixing the set.

 

Edit: Considering the level of sustain powers in Manipulation sets, it would be reasonable to maintain levels similar to current levels while converting IH to a toggle and DP to an Auto...

Not sure Dull Pain needs to be made auto  It does what its supposed to do in that it provides the +HP buff to help with huge hits/alphas.  Perhaps for tanks it should be an auto power.  I think its fine as is for scrappers and brutes.

[yllly]

First of all, I want to thank you, dear friends, for your participation in the topic. My English is so-so, I was very worried when I wrote this post. He was afraid to remain incomprehensible and unnoticed. As many Regen said help is needed, maybe just add an absorption, plus in the last ability (I don’t remember the name) do more action time, say 1 minute instead of (15-30) seconds !? Either reduce reload time

Back in the game after 8 years, I specifically tested absolutely all defensive sets. Many already recognize me by my nicknames, such as Benn Streak, Benn Beast, Benn Something. 

 

Maybe this set is popular for pvp, as well as on sentinels and scrappers, but Brutes feel terribly. the same bio looks much better like regen. I beg you to support me and try to find a solution! I believe in the community and that together everything is possible!
If the problem is that if you strengthen this set, it will be unkillable in pvp, then you can make slightly different effects for pvp and pvp !?

[Lost Ninja]

32 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Yes, I used to be able to do the same - but high Regen was not the reason.  My PvP build had adequate perception so I could see Stalkers coming from a mile away negating their use of Hide/AS.  Outside of that, they didn't have sufficient damage to overwhelm my Regen.  Sounds to me like that's working as intended or more likely those others needed to work on their builds and teamwork a little more.  Neither of which meant Regen was "broken" in PvP.  You're also confirming what I said - Regen doesn't help against huge alphas or spike damage.  Had those stalkers worked together, you'd have been 2 shot easily.  Completely different story if they can't hit you at all through perma MoG, which was broken.

 

I've seen many a Regen player go up against /RADs,  /DARKs, /POISONs etc. with -RES and -REGEN debuffs up the kazoo and they got obliterated.

Not my experience at all. I didn't run perma MoG - I ran it as an "Oh Flip" button. I did have Focused Accuracy so yes I would probably have been able to react to potential incoming damage. I didn't have a PvP build, I was never that into it, it was something people in my SG enjoyed at the time and I spent time with them, it could be a lot of fun. And regen isn't great against alpha strikes, it never was, I'd hesitate to say it never will be but, IMO at least giving it the ability to ignore that would cheapen the set. If you know you're about to leap into a big group you could pop Dull Pain, or some purples. Resistance or defence against debuffs would be fine, but not really of much value against alpha strikes. But just giving it defence or resistance like the other sets means it's no longer about the regen.

 

I'm making no claim about how Regen performs in PvP, I don't care. If you want to read that into what I said then do so.

 

Regen is currently lacklustre in PvE due to past nerfs. It needs work (IMO) to bring it up in terms of overall use to be in line with sets that have been added more recently. And as a previous level 50 Regen Scrapper (which I enjoyed) I wouldn't now, with the much better alternatives (outside of story/concept) roll a new Regen.

[ShardWarrior]

16 hours ago, Heraclea said:

The one good thing about Regen is that it effectively has no holes, because it is almost completely indifferent to the type or location of incoming damage.  Psionic damage, toxic damage, untyped damage, it's all just damage to the Regen player.  I have a regen scrapper currently sitting at 46, absolutely no hurry to get to 50, because the main thing I do with the character is run stuff like Synapse or Moonfire.  Thanks to Quick Recovery she plays like a dream in those TFs.  She earns merits that are spent on things my other characters want, and she earns valuable lowbie set recipes like Kinetic Combat and Impervious Skin.  I do not take Fighting pool on the character like I do with most melees; for her Tough and Weave would be lipstick on a pig.  She doesn't start from a level of defense or S/L resistance that would make what they add pointful, 

 

And as Galaxy Brain mentioned, people take the set because it says 'regeneration' and that's a familiar comic superhero trope, like 'Invulnerability' or 'Super Strength'.  These may not in fact be the best choices for building the sort of character you have in mind, but the appeal of 'Willpower'  or 'Bio Armor' is less obvious.  It also has the advantage of not turning your character into a rock monster, a human light show, or Pigpen. 

 

I think the best thing to do to make Regen viable in endgame is to keep it unique.  Give it substantial, softcapped at the default slot, resistance to just about all debuffs: practical immunity to -recharge, -tohit, -defense, -resist, and the like.  It's a one trick pony; let it use its one trick.  Make it immune to Confused and Terrorized while you're at it: that's fortunately rare but it makes the content where it happens off limits to most melee defensive sets. 

I like this suggestion.

[Varkarrus]

I have a general idea for how I'd rework Regeneration, which would also make it viable for use by Tankers.

 

Right now, the problem is Regeneration is a little binary; either enemies deal enough DPS to you to overcome your regeneration, or they cannot.

 

I feel what could be done is to make Regeneration a powerset that can be "tired out." If you aren't killed outright by an alpha strike, the player's regeneration could be high enough to withstand even incredibly high sources of DPS, but the more they self-heal, the more their abilities weaken, go on cooldown, or drain their endurance, until their ability to heal through damage diminishes to nothing.

[QuiJon]

On 9/29/2019 at 10:48 AM, BrandX said:

Been trying to get Regen to feel as strong as I feel a lot of the other sets can feel, and when building them, I'm saddened that...

 

1) Integration doesn't actually benefit from Heal IOs

2) Instant Heal doesn't benefit from Heal IOs

3) Moment of Glory doesn't also give Positional Defenses

 

...and what I got to thinking, was maybe what Regen needed, that I don't imagine would impact PvP at all, but help in working up the defenses in PvE, is an equal amount of defense as resistance in Resilience.

 

Also, give the set the Psi Resist/Defense in the Resist/Defense powers.

I have to say my first scrapper back in the day was a katana/regen. Yes I made her because at the time everyone had a regen, and it was way over powered and virtually unkillable. However times change. And so has regen. And now my favorite defense set happens to be Will Power. Which I think is more or less what Regen should have been spec into when they changed it, but likely they were still trying to find something original and "wolverineish" feeling at the time. 

 

However I do wonder if perhaps one aspect of WP is the solution for Regen. IMO regens basic issue is that you can balance something like regen around the idea of a perceived appropriate fight level. Meaning if you attribute that a single hero should be able to fight 2 minions and a Lt. then you can base the regen powers to provide that level of protection. But it means that it becomes more woefully underpowered as you try to challenge it. So maybe the solution is to find a way to have regen be able to ramp up to the challenge so it maintains a closer to base line performance no matter the difficulty level you play at.

 

The only way I can see doing this would be to perhaps give a bit more of a def or res buff, but that is not really "regenish" but why not make integration something that provides a base buff, but also then provides larger buffs as to the number of enemies you have in melee range. Kind of like WP does. WP gives you an increase to your base rengeneration based on how many enemies you are fighting, I don't see why this should or could not be done also within the regen set to help make the base line performance of the set a bit more adjustable across challenging game play without having to say "well just invest 200m influence in IOs and it seems fine." I mean I can run a WP brute in a SL farm at +3/8 no problem with nothing but common IOs, no set bonuses. I am not quite sure I could say the same for a regen, infact I am pretty sure I couldn't. 

[aethereal]

Yeah, as QuiJon says, there's a fundamental threshold issue with regeneration per se (that is, with "buffing the healing that you get over time in a straight forward manner."  Not the set Regeneration, the combat attribute regeneration).

 

Like, let's say that your baseline expectation is that a "normal" encounter will lead to 100 DPS, and that a "normal" scrapper armor should mitigate 75% of that.

 

For resistance, you set resistance to those damage types to 75%, and bam, this person takes 25 DPS

For defense, you set defense to those damage types to, whatever it is, 30%, and 75 out of 100 of those attacks miss, and this person takes 25 DPS, albeit in a less smooth way than resistance.

For regeneration, you set healing to 75 health per second, and bam, this person takes 25 DPS

 

Now let's say that the player scales their challenge level up or down a little.  Instead of taking 100 DPS, they take 90 DPS

 

Resistance takes 22.5 DPS (that is, 90% of the damage they took in the 100 DPS scenario)

Defense takes 22.5 DPS (that is, 90% of the damage they took in the 100 DPS scenario, though again it's a little more complicated than the resistance case)

Regeneration takes 15 DPS.  Hmmm.

 

What if the player takes 110 DPS instead of 100 DPS?

 

Resistance takes 27.5 DPS

Defense takes 27.5 DPS with the usual asterisks

Regeneration takes 35 DPS

 

Or, just to drive the point home, it's pretty easy to scale your threat up by 2x in CoH, so call it 200 DPS:  In that scenario, the resistance person takes 50 DPS, the defense person probably takes somewhat more than 50 DPS, maybe 60 or 70 DPS, and the regen person takes 125 DPS.

 

Willpower finesses this by providing some resistance, some -to-hit, and also by scaling the regen rate based on the number of enemies near you.  Regeneration will have to do something like that, something more complicated than "bonus to regen, click to heal," if it wants to avoid strong thresholding issues.

[BrandX]

3 hours ago, QuiJon said:

I have to say my first scrapper back in the day was a katana/regen. Yes I made her because at the time everyone had a regen, and it was way over powered and virtually unkillable. However times change. And so has regen. And now my favorite defense set happens to be Will Power. Which I think is more or less what Regen should have been spec into when they changed it, but likely they were still trying to find something original and "wolverineish" feeling at the time. 

 

However I do wonder if perhaps one aspect of WP is the solution for Regen. IMO regens basic issue is that you can balance something like regen around the idea of a perceived appropriate fight level. Meaning if you attribute that a single hero should be able to fight 2 minions and a Lt. then you can base the regen powers to provide that level of protection. But it means that it becomes more woefully underpowered as you try to challenge it. So maybe the solution is to find a way to have regen be able to ramp up to the challenge so it maintains a closer to base line performance no matter the difficulty level you play at.

 

The only way I can see doing this would be to perhaps give a bit more of a def or res buff, but that is not really "regenish" but why not make integration something that provides a base buff, but also then provides larger buffs as to the number of enemies you have in melee range. Kind of like WP does. WP gives you an increase to your base rengeneration based on how many enemies you are fighting, I don't see why this should or could not be done also within the regen set to help make the base line performance of the set a bit more adjustable across challenging game play without having to say "well just invest 200m influence in IOs and it seems fine." I mean I can run a WP brute in a SL farm at +3/8 no problem with nothing but common IOs, no set bonuses. I am not quite sure I could say the same for a regen, infact I am pretty sure I couldn't. 

 

That's why I suggest the Defense.  Allows Regen to build for a popular defense.  With no -To-Hit or Defense Debuff, it'd be more about taking the alpha.

As for it working with the theme of Regen, the set already has a defense power.  Though, I'm also of the thought MoG and Resilience should give Resist/Defense to all damage types and defenses (positional and typed).

 

Allowing Integration to actually be enhanceable in the regen area could also help.

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

 

That's why I suggest the Defense. 

You can already build for defense.

 

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

 

With no -To-Hit or Defense Debuff, it'd be more about taking the alpha.

You can get -ToHit already...you just need to use the other set that's always paired with an armor set.

 

I think people in the thread are looking at the set in a very skewed manner.  For example, look at Super Reflexes on anything but Tanker: It's a pretty mediocre set that relies heavily on luck and other mitigating features.  How they skew this is because, with IO sets, you can cap your defenses with a bit of slot work...that doesn't change the BASE of the set being nearly paper thin if the foes happen to have +ToHit (Devouring Earth, Nemesis and such).

 

If we're skewing things here, Regen is decently capable if not click-heavy that isn't up everyone's alley that just like to use optimal attack chains over and over.  In which case, Regen isn't for everyone but it can be pretty good if you build for it or pair it with certain sets.

[MTeague]

I wouldn't refuse it if Instant Healing became a toggle again.

But do I think it *needs* it?  Not really. 

 

Then again, I'm making no effort to tank LARGE spawns with Regen. And I have no interest in doing so.  So my expectations may be very different.  My regen is a Spines/Regen stalker.  Teaming, I let the Tank tank, and I'm in a half-step behind him critting out the wazoo and tossing in instacast Assassin's Strikes everytime that glorious orange circle appears around it.  If I catch aggro on a few stray mobs it simply doesn't matter.  I can easily out-regen them.   When I solo, I run +2 with bosses, and everything falls before me.  Ya, a couple of bosses I've gotta pop a few inspirations before the boss, and use my clickies during the fight.  But I win, they don't, unless I'm just sloppy.

 

If you want Regen to be tanking soloing +4/x8 well....  can't advise you there.  The set was originally designed only for Scrappers, and later Stalkers.  Brutes were a much later afterthought.  I don't believe it's design intent ever included solo tanking +4/x8

[Leogunner]

48 minutes ago, MTeague said:

My regen is a Spines/Regen stalker. 

That's a brave combo.  It has several slow animating attacks which can interfere using your clicks.

 

...but as a fellow /Regen Stalker, and because no one has bothered to say anything, can we look into helping out Stalker /regen and give it some endurance management?  +Recovery, +Max END, Endurance Discount...something!

[0th Power]

On 9/30/2019 at 8:01 PM, Zepp said:

Additionally, returning IH to a toggle and possibly changing Dull Pain to an Auto power would go a long way towards fixing the set.

This would be my fix improvement as well.

[JetMalakai]

I had a Regen Scrapper that could tank anything except Lord Recluse. Granted, an IOed to the nines Scrapper with Incarnate powers, but he was a complete and total game breaker, and Regen was about half of the reason why.

[Haijinx]

42 minutes ago, JetMalakai said:

I had a Regen Scrapper that could tank anything except Lord Recluse. Granted, an IOed to the nines Scrapper with Incarnate powers, but he was a complete and total game breaker, and Regen was about half of the reason why.

Hmmm.  Adding the brute version taunt aura to the scrapper regen would be cool too.  

[BrandX]

8 hours ago, JetMalakai said:

I had a Regen Scrapper that could tank anything except Lord Recluse. Granted, an IOed to the nines Scrapper with Incarnate powers, but he was a complete and total game breaker, and Regen was about half of the reason why.

 

Yes, but adding Incarnate Powers to the other secondaries allows the same thing really.

[JetMalakai]

1 minute ago, BrandX said:

 

Yes, but adding Incarnate Powers to the other secondaries allows the same thing really.

I was tanking lesser AVs (ie: Nemesis) before even that though. IOs can help you more with defense and recharge (which Regen benefits from more than other secondaries) much more than they can regeneration.